Record of Ragnarok - Big Speed Revision

[Giannysmag]

So in Chapter 83 of Record of Ragnarok we are shown Apollo's Moonlight of Artemis technique, which shoots arrows that move at the speed of light. These arrows are fast enough to blitz both Leonidas and Apollo, with the former needing to rely on his warrior instincts to deflect them. Hermes calls them the fastest strike in heaven and Zeus states that only people on his level could deal with such an attack.

All of this put together puts into question the verses current FTL ratings, as these lightspeed attacks are treated as Top Tier and nearly unblockable. So this thread is to change up the current speed scaling into something more inline with what the series persents.

Relativistic Tier:
Everyone from Rounds 1, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 fall into this tier. For one the fighters in Ragnarok are supposed to be the peak of both humans and gods, putting them above Ares who could percive Zeus's attacks that lasted for only 10^-8 seconds which is relativistic perception speed. There is also this rel calc of Leo blocking one of the light arrows through instinct, that more or less everyone should scale from

Speed of Light Tier:
Apollo with Moonlight of Artemis: pretty self-explanetory

FTL Tier:
Zeus, Adam and Poseidon are in this tier: Zeus states that only he can deal with the light arrows and him and Adam have their own FTL feats. Poseidon is implied to be on Zeus's level and is repeatedly praised for his speed, as well as having his own FTL feat

The Weird One:
Sasaki grows massively faster throught round 3, going from getting blitzed by Poseidon to easily outspeeding him, so i porpose his speed be changed to

Relativistic (His Tsubame Gaeshi technique is described as a strike of godly speed, with Ares being surprised by how fast it is) to FTL (Grew massively as his fight went on to the point he could outspeed Poseidon)

Agree: @CharlesZaGreat, @The_one_you_least_expect, @Sparkive, @SuperKamiNappa, @EL_xWatcher1234x

Disagree:

Neutral:

 

[CharlesZaGreat]

Looks good to me, though we should probably wait for the Leonidas calc to get accepted before using it.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Remember that one time where Buddha dodged several point blank attacks before Sasaki Kojiro who was right next to him could intervene.

 

[Giannysmag]

Remember that one time where Buddha dodged several point blank attacks before Sasaki Kojiro who was right next to him could intervene.

This?

 

[Greatsage13th]

This?

Yep, that one.

 

[Giannysmag]

Yep, that one.

Idk if that's an indication of speed. The bullets were aimed at Buddha who was also infront of Kojiro

 

[Greatsage13th]

Idk if that's an indication of speed. The bullets were aimed at Buddha who was also infront of Kojiro

Kojiro is almost 8 times faster than the Relativistic speed feat. It wouldn't matter if he was behind him due to being that much faster yet couldn't intercept it.

 

[Giannysmag]

Kojiro is almost 8 times faster than the Relativistic speed feat. It wouldn't matter if he was behind him due to being that much faster yet couldn't intercept it.

Also why would he try to block an attack that isn't even aimed at him?

 

[Greatsage13th]

Also why would he try to block an attack that isn't even aimed at him?

He's not really that type of guy to allow someone to get shot wouldn't he? Besides that, the scene establishes that they were there to protect the Buddha.

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

Looks reasonable, I agree

 

[Sparkive]

I agree

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

what speed were those bullets?

 

[Giannysmag]

what speed were those bullets?

That's another thing, we know for a fact the bullets are sub-lightspeed so there's no reason to assume Kojiro couldn't block them if they were aimed at him

 

[Cyberblader90]

Isnt Poseidon's ftl calc a form of calc stacking?

 

[Giannysmag]

Isnt Poseidon's ftl calc a form of calc stacking?

Checked the comments and you are right, though @DMUA says it's more of a grey area since it's using a timeframe

If someone could tag a cgm to check if the feat is usable that would be appreciated

 

[CharlesZaGreat]

Also, will we be keeping mftl Adam and Zeus when they're using The Fist That Stopped Time and Adamas

 

[Giannysmag]

Also, will we be keeping mftl Adam and Zeus when they're using The Fist That Stopped Time and Adamas

I don't see why we wouldn't

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

I agree

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

agree

 

[Zefra3011]

So in Chapter 83 of Record of Ragnarok we are shown Apollo's Moonlight of Artemis technique, which shoots arrows that move at the speed of light. These arrows are fast enough to blitz both Leonidas and Apollo, with the former needing to rely on his warrior instincts to deflect them. Hermes calls them the fastest strike in heaven and Zeus states that only people on his level could deal with such an attack.

All of this put together puts into question the verses current FTL ratings, as these lightspeed attacks are treated as Top Tier and nearly unblockable. So this thread is to change up the current speed scaling into something more inline with what the series persents.

Relativistic Tier:
Everyone from Rounds 1, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 fall into this tier. For one the fighters in Ragnarok are supposed to be the peak of both humans and gods, putting them above Ares who could percive Zeus's attacks that lasted for only 10^-8 seconds which is relativistic perception speed. There is also this rel calc of Leo blocking one of the light arrows through instinct, that more or less everyone should scale from

I didn't read much after Jack vs hercule so I might be wrong but... wouldn't this just cap the REACTION of the verse? Reaction and combat speed can be different and Leo is a perfect example, by the scans you sent he can't see the arrow but his combat speed is definitely superior to the arrows, the calc is not accepted in first place so I'll tell what I think is the main problem, why is this panel being used when the point of the calc is to find out the movement speed of Leo, he didn't move until the arrow was extremely closer than what the calc suggest, the calc assumes Leo started moving as soon as the arrow moved but it's not the case, the context is outright "I can't see them but I still can block them" which is exactly what he does here, he just moves knowing there will be an arrow there, a small calc would be:

I'll assume there distance arrow face is more less 0,5 m

Leo made a 90° movement in order to block it (the 180° from the calc is also wrong as he might as well did the rest of the moment above the timeframe since he already blocked the arrow) so the movement would be 1,117984 / 2 = 0,558992, this already makes the movement performed by Leo higher than the distance traveleed by the arrow, especially if we consider the arrow didn't cross the whole distance I found earlier.

There is nothing wrong in having an higher combat speed compared to your reaction, so I believe this only is a cap for the reaction/perception of the verse and not for the combat speed (IRL boxers can punch at 14 and 20 m/s even thought they can't really react to those punches but they mostly do aim dodging)

For the statement of Zeus... well... it's outright contradicted by the feat itself, Leo can deal with it, I believe the statements refers to the fact they can't see those arrows which, again, would just cap the reaction, I also think in general statements in ROR are ass, but yeah, this one here is outright contradicted if you take it literally so...

Also by looking at the profile of Apollo... he kinda blitzed the same timeframe you mentioned in the OP so...

EDIT: in this scan don't they say the arrows are invisible?Can't it be the reason they can't deal with them?

Another EDIT: it WAS the fastest hit in the divine realm

 

[Giannysmag]

I didn't read much after Jack vs hercule so I might be wrong but... wouldn't this just cap the REACTION of the verse? Reaction and combat speed can be different and Leo is a perfect example, by the scans you sent he can't see the arrow but his combat speed is definitely superior to the arrows, the calc is not accepted in first place so I'll tell what I think is the main problem, why is this panel being used when the point of the calc is to find out the movement speed of Leo, he didn't move until the arrow was extremely closer than what the calc suggest, the calc assumes Leo started moving as soon as the arrow moved but it's not the case, the context is outright "I can't see them but I still can block them" which is exactly what he does here, he just moves knowing there will be an arrow there, a small calc would be:

I'll assume there distance arrow face is more less 0,5 m

Leo made a 90° movement in order to block it (the 180° from the calc is also wrong as he might as well did the rest of the moment above the timeframe since he already blocked the arrow) so the movement would be 1,117984 / 2 = 0,558992, this already makes the movement performed by Leo higher than the distance traveleed by the arrow, especially if we consider the arrow didn't cross the whole distance I found earlier.

This is fair

There is nothing wrong in having an higher combat speed compared to your reaction, so I believe this only is a cap for the reaction/perception of the verse and not for the combat speed (IRL boxers can punch at 14 and 20 m/s even thought they can't really react to those punches but they mostly do aim dodging)

Problem is that Leo can actually react to and block some of Apollo's physical movements, but he was getting completely blitzed by the arrows, which would put Apollo's combat speed below SOL (Apollo's combat speed >= Leo's reaction speed << Arrows speed). By extension pretty much everyone in the verse can react to their opponints combat speed, so this is a pretty moot point

For the statement of Zeus... well... it's outright contradicted by the feat itself, Leo can deal with it, I believe the statements refers to the fact they can't see those arrows which, again, would just cap the reaction, I also think in general statements in ROR are ass, but yeah, this one here is outright contradicted if you take it literally so...

Leo was only able to block the arrow once through pure instinct and got hit by every other shot, so Zeus's statement would still apply

I can concede Leo having higher combat speed than reaction, but that would be something exclusive to him (whatever speed him deflecting the arrow ends up being). The whole fastest strike in heaven statement kinda seals anyone except Zeus (and Poseidon but he is dead by the time this statement is made) scaling above SOL in combat speed.

 

[Zefra3011]

the arrows are stated to be invisible, I really think it's the main reason they can't handle them, you can be MFTL+, you can't dodge something you don't see, also again it's not stated to be the fastest hit but is stated that it WAS the fastest,

also if I really need to reply to everything, Leo might have just kept up with ftl movement by aim dodging or simple hand to hand skill which is literally what happens in IRL hand to hand fights, you don't dodge the attack because you are faster but because you are skilled enough to do it, I didn't read the fight but still,

the fact arrows are invisible says a lot, Leo says "it doesn't matter if I can or can't see them, I can still shatter them" which sn't really something you would say when something is far above your perception

EDIT: "he could block it by instinct* so Leo by instinct can deal with attacks faster than his reaction, so where is the contradiction in him being able to deal with Apollo attacks? if their combat speed is relative?

 

[Zefra3011]

Appollo reacts to Leo's movement which is at bare minimum SOL, either he reacted at his movement or at the arrow going to him, both SOL so...

 

[Giannysmag]

the arrows are stated to be invisible, I really think it's the main reason they can't handle them, you can be MFTL+, you can't dodge something you don't see,

The arrows are made of light, something that gives off light (light that's visible mind you) by definition can't be invisible . Heimdall's statement is likely refering to it's speed

also again it's not stated to be the fastest hit but is stated that it WAS the fastest,

Zeus still believes that only he can defend against it, so it's still treated as a top tier attack

also if I really need to reply to everything, Leo might have just kept up with ftl movement by aim dodging or simple hand to hand skill which is literally what happens in IRL hand to hand fights, you don't dodge the attack because you are faster but because you are skilled enough to do it, I didn't read the fight but still,

You can literally see his eyes tracking Apollo's punches, i think it was pretty clear that was reaction speed

Leo says "it doesn't matter if I can or can't see them, I can still shatter them" which sn't really something you would say when something is far above your perception

Idk what being able to shatter the arrows has to do with speed

EDIT: "he could block it by instinct* so Leo by instinct can deal with attacks faster than his reaction, so where is the contradiction in him being able to deal with Apollo attacks? if their combat speed is relative?

Because the whole warrior's instinct thing was implied to be a rare thing, it wasn't something he was doing throughout the fight

Appollo reacts to Leo's movement which is at bare minimum SOL, either he reacted at his movement or at the arrow going to him, both SOL so...

And Apollo is a considerable distance away from Leo, so he could still do this with Relativistic perception. Mind you the arrow also hits him, os that's another example of Apollo's reaction speed being fatser than his combat speed

 

[Zefra3011]

Zeus still believes that only he can defend against it, so it's still treated as a top tier attack

By following the statement not even Adam, Poseidon or anyone you are trying to keep at ftl would be able to, which suggest it's not a matter of speed, especially when Adam reacted to at a bare minimum twenty 0s attack, why would Zeus say that after literally facing someone who literally reacted to a MFTL+ attack (or infinite, which imo makes more sense), if you take the statement that way... apply it to everyone and not only the ones you want, is contradicted in many ways if you account it for speed.

Idk what being able to shatter the arrows has to do with speed

It's because it's his statement, the context is that he can't see them but still he can deal with them, so...

The arrows are made of light, something that gives off light (light that's visible mind you) by definition can't be invisible . Heimdall's statement is likely refering to it's speed

Mh... well they are stated to be invisible and to disappear after being shot which might mean that, not sure, can't it simply mean the arrow vanish after being shot, which is directly stated? It would still make sense

And Apollo is a considerable distance away from Leo, so he could still do this with Relativistic perception. Mind you the arrow also hits him, os that's another example of Apollo's reaction speed being fatser than his combat speed

The author doesn't really go much deep into things, he doesn't angsize distances and stuff, the most simple conclusion is: the speed of the attacks is SOL, he reacts to it, speed is SOL, but your reason would only apply if he reacted at the arrow, he could have react at Leo movement, and I think he did react to it and there is no way that is below SOL.

 

[Giannysmag]

By following the statement not even Adam, Poseidon or anyone you are trying to keep at ftl would be able to, which suggest it's not a matter of speed, especially when Adam reacted to at a bare minimum twenty 0s attack, why would Zeus say that after literally facing someone who literally reacted to a MFTL+ attack (or infinite, which imo makes more sense), if you take the statement that way... apply it to everyone and not only the ones you want, is contradicted in many ways if you account it for speed.

Adam and Poseidon are dead when Zeus makes the statement

It's because it's his statement, the context is that he can't see them but still he can deal with them, so...

Which would apply wether they were invisible or if they were to fast to percieve. I've already agreed to Leo having higher combat speed than reaction speed so i don't see what this point has to do with anything

Mh... well they are stated to be invisible and to disappear after being shot which might mean that, not sure, can't it simply mean the arrow vanish after being shot, which is directly stated? It would still make sense

Them disappearing can simply mean they are to fast for anyone to percieve, which if you ask me makes more sense than these arrows that are made of light just turning invisible after being fired

The author doesn't really go much deep into things, he doesn't angsize distances and stuff, the most simple conclusion is: the speed of the attacks is SOL, he reacts to it, speed is SOL,

Obviously the authors don't care about measuring everything percisely, but Apollo is shown several times to be a considerable distance from Leo so him reacting to a SOL attack from several meters away would be Relativistic perception

but your reason would only apply if he reacted at the arrow, he could have react at Leo movement, and I think he did react to it and there is no way that is below SOL.

Why would he react to Leo moving and not the arrow of light flying at him?

 

[Zefra3011]

Adam and Poseidon are dead when Zeus makes the statement

the dude Poseidon fought (I forgot the name) is alive if you want to go by this logic and you consider him FTL

Which would apply wether they were invisible or if they were to fast to percieve. I've already agreed to Leo having higher combat speed than reaction speed so i don't see what this point has to do with anything

Them disappearing can simply mean they are to fast for anyone to percieve, which if you ask me makes more sense than these arrows that are made of light just turning invisible after being fired

Look, it might as well be a matter of speed, the point is that it's contradicted imo

Obviously the authors don't care about measuring everything percisely, but Apollo is shown several times to be a considerable distance from Leo so him reacting to a SOL attack from several meters away would be Relativistic perception

Why would he react to Leo moving and not the arrow of light flying at him?

wait wait wait, I didn't say he react to one and not the other, he might even react to both, he might have react to his movement which is SOL and at the arrow moving a certain distance which would still be SOL or at least Rel+, his reaction is shown right after he deflects the arrow, anyway, the more simple conclusion is that he reacted to the arrow and therefore he reacted to something SOL, and that's it, as far as I can tell authors don't look at distance much, you can be 0,5 m, 1 m or even 10 m if you can't react to a speed you can't and that's it, if the author thinks his characters are slower than bullets for example he will never show them reacting to them, not even if it's a sniper shooting from 1km of distance and that's it, so the simplest conculsion I would go for is that he reacted to either of the two thing and both are SOL so his reaction is also SOL.

 

[Giannysmag]

the dude Poseidon fought (I forgot the name) is alive if you want to go by this logic and you consider him FTL

I literally have his name in the OP

I don't really have a counter for this tbh... Zeus just didn't think about Sasaki at the moment aguess lmao

Look, it might as well be a matter of speed, the point is that it's contradicted imo

Contradicted by what? Everything you've brought up can be explained by them just being to fast to percieve

wait wait wait, I didn't say he react to one and not the other, he might even react to both, he might have react to his movement which is SOL and at the arrow moving a certain distance which would still be SOL or at least Rel+, his reaction is shown right after he deflects the arrow, anyway, the more simple conclusion is that he reacted to the arrow and therefore he reacted to something SOL, and that's it, as far as I can tell authors don't look at distance much, you can be 0,5 m, 1 m or even 10 m if you can't react to a speed you can't and that's it, if the author thinks his characters are slower than bullets for example he will never show them reacting to them, not even if it's a sniper shooting from 1km of distance and that's it, so the simplest conculsion I would go for is that he reacted to either of the two thing and both are SOL so his reaction is also SOL.

Genuine question, what are we even arguing about at this point. I've agreed that Leo's combat speed > Leo's reaction speed and the rest of the cast would just scale from Ares. If you are arguaing that Apollo has Rel+ to SOL perception speed then i'm fine with that too

 

[Zefra3011]

That this doesn't cap the verse generally, it may be explained by them being simply invisible and if you want to bring up speed stuff I think they are contradicted, I don't want to go circular so I'll stop reply for now since I would more less just say the same things again,

I might add just one thing tho, you conceded Leo having SOL/FTL combat speed, doesn't Apollo keep up with him during the fight in both combat speed and also reacting at his attacks, I legit don't know so I won't reply further but if he did... well...

anyway sorry if something was confusing, as I said I just came up with this by looking at your scans since I stopped ROR at jack's round.

 

[Giannysmag]

I stopped ROR at jack's round.

You missing out on some peak, anyhow since you don't wanna continue this i'll also take my leave and i'll rework some of the stuff here tommorow

 

[Zefra3011]

Yeah, I'll continue it one day, anyway I suggest to get a proper calc for the feat and to get it evaluated, it might help.

 

[Huesito88]

Couldn't the Zeus statement be interpreted as him talking about being able to tank the arrows?

 

[Giannysmag]

Couldn't the Zeus statement be interpreted as him talking about being able to tank the arrows?

"Stopping" the arrow moreso implies blocking it than tanking it, which would require reaction speed

 

[Huesito88]

"Stopping" the arrow moreso implies blocking it than tanking it, which would require reaction speed

Of course it'd require reaction speed, but If you can't somewhat tank the arrows you wouldn't be able to stop it via blocking it.

 

[Giannysmag]

Of course it'd require reaction speed, but If you can't somewhat tank the arrows you wouldn't be able to stop it via blocking it.

Obviously but the point of this thread is speed

 

[Sparkive]

the dude Poseidon fought (I forgot the name) is alive if you want to go by this logic and you consider him FTL

"I am the only one in the divine realm" would not imply that the mention only takes into account the gods?, that is, Sasaki Kojiro is not taken into account for the mention

 

[Zefra3011]

"I am the only one in the divine realm" would not imply that the mention only takes into account the gods?, that is, Sasaki Kojiro is not taken into account for the mention

Aren't they all in the divine realm during the tournament?

 

[Sparkive]

Aren't they all in the divine realm during the tournament?

I just did some research through the Record of Ragnarok wiki:
The divine realm/Valhalla is apparently only one of the 3 layers of this universe (ironically that makes Hades excluded from mention), the gods live in Valhalla, but the souls of humans are guided to it by the Valkyries... and the tournament takes place in the Valhalla Arena...
I was wrong, but it's still very likely that the mention excludes humans for the simple fact that every time they talk about the divine realm, they don't usually take them into account, but I can't prove that, so just ignore it...

 

[Damage3245]

The OP makes sense to me.

 

[PowerToScale]

Hello, the guy who made the Leonidas calc, I just wanted to say that looking over the calc I made a mistake and forgot to minus the arm length from the distance as it doesn't reach the full distance. I've just gone a fixed it now.

I agree with everything in the thread.
_

I'll assume there distance arrow face is more less 0,5 m

Leo made a 90° movement in order to block it (the 180° from the calc is also wrong as he might as well did the rest of the moment above the timeframe since he already blocked the arrow) so the movement would be 1,117984 / 2 = 0,558992, this already makes the movement performed by Leo higher than the distance traveleed by the arrow, especially if we consider the arrow didn't cross the whole distance I found earlier.

This is where I knew interpretation would come into play. I don't see this the arrow actually be fired and being in front of his face, this to me is highlighting his instincts showing him where the arrow will be, as mentioned in the chapter Leo can't see them but thanks to his fighting experience he is able to react on pure instinct to where the arrow would be fired to deflect it despite it being faster, this is also why I believe the panel in color contrast is switched to show its his instincts. So there is that difference between our interpretation. Furthermore if this was the case it would be wildly inaccurate. Assuming this to be the case and this is the arrow right in front of him, not only is the distance inaccurate but for Leo to have it that close and still swing his arm he would literally need to statue the arrow in speed. So it would only make sense if it were his instincts which was stated in the chapter.

Secondly the 1.117984m isn't 180deg, its 90deg, you are misunderstanding the values here, 180deg would be 2.23597m. the distance Leo's hand would travel is 1.117984m for a 90degree swing. I also didn't use 180 as he doesn't need to travel the whole distance just enough to hit it.