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- #81
That's fine. I don't mind waiting since you also didn't rush in to close the thread.
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Record of Ragnarok Downgrade
- Thread starter StorytellingDemonKing
- Start date
- 2,051
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- Thread starter
- #82
Show a statement of Volundr increase the humans strength. All we know is that Volundrs are also divine and because of that they bypass God's invulnerability. Zeus himself praised and admitted HUMANS to being strong.
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and again Gods don't have invulnerability or shouldn't have it because they've been harmed by things that aren't divine
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Time to downgrade everyone to 9-C!
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thor shud be outerversal via transcending a low 1-a cosmology
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Too high, 10-B at best
- 2,051
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- #88
One is of full potential and the other is about being a suitable weapon. How does that indicate planetary levels of strength? "Power of god" can very well mean their divinity. In fact, that's what the context behind volundr's means and has been described in the past.
PowerToScale/record of ragnarok
vsbattles.fandom.com
First two scans
Like what? Only thing would be adam who is made in the image of God and copies the abilities and attributes of other Gods who are considered divine. Other than that I don't remember anything of the sort.
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- #89
So, yeah. Just to reiterate myself. The only difference in human and god weapons is their divinity. Even reaffirmed by Brunhilde. In fact, merely taking the form of a human weapon already makes it divine if it's done via volundr. So far, we only know Gods are incredibly powerful and invulnerable unless it from a divine source.
Which even further backed up by Zeus calling HUMANS strong. Probably should have included this in the OP but I completely forgor.
My goal still doesn't change and I still think they should be downgraded to the actual feats showcased. However, if people are really dead set on Planet levels via 1 Thor statement that was contradicted by him clashing with a 7-B+, I could compromise for a "possibly" rating.
Which even further backed up by Zeus calling HUMANS strong. Probably should have included this in the OP but I completely forgor.
My goal still doesn't change and I still think they should be downgraded to the actual feats showcased. However, if people are really dead set on Planet levels via 1 Thor statement that was contradicted by him clashing with a 7-B+, I could compromise for a "possibly" rating.
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- #91
Nah. Jack damaged Heracles with his volundr which is considered divine thus bypasses their invulnerability. There are two ways of scaling Jack with Volundr.
1. To Heracles who has his own building level feats
2. Heracles took the blood of Zeus thus scales to City level+ and so Jack would also be City level+ with volundr
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i agree with high outerversal ragnarok
- 2,051
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- Thread starter
- #94
I don't mind but I don't know about the others.
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Volund is bring out the fullest potential of a being increasing their strength, which allows the fighters to stand a chance against the gods. This is the "power of a god" grant by volund as its power on the level of gods. The scan talks about how it transforms into the best weapon for the being and that it also grants the previously mentioned power of a god. This has nothing to do with planetary levels as the level of strength is meaningless in this discussion.
Hercules killing gods from heaven with a rock and stick because of increased strength, Adam killing gods (And if you consider him divine himself by his lore then the idea of him using a volund would contradict that), Qin killing a god with his bare hands as a normal human and no volund. Nostradamus being considered strong without his volund and destroying the byfrost.
A Divine weapon is a weapon made in heaven by the gods, because of this it is much stronger than more durable than anything humanity has being able to produce in its history. When it talks about a divine blow it refers to its divine strength, strength beyond humanities capabilities. Zeus calling humans strong is him talking about the ragnarok fighters who have performed Volund, increasing their strengths, it also refers to humanities great potential as that was volund is bring beings to the greatest potential
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agree with powertoscale
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- Thread starter
- #97
The "power of a god" is merely to be divine and powerful to an unquantifiable degree. The closest statement to planet level is from Thor and it's a myth with part of it being exposed as false. Later, humans are compared to Gods, not humans Volundrs. Whats more, can you prove it increases their strength to planet level? If it unlocks the "full potential" of both beings then it very well can mean combining 7-B+ humans and something divine thus actually Gods having to use their full power against the same 7-B+ who normally couldn't scratch the divine even though they are in the same ball park of power.
Increased strength from what? Blood of Zeus which is divine?
I mean he copies Gods who are divine, that's how his power works. And yeah, it just means Adam isn't divine normally so a volundry might be needed because even if he copies the physical prowess, he can't bypass their divine invulnerability.
Was it a God or was it someone pretending to be one? Wasn't the same God referred to as a monster? Idk, been a while since I read Qin Shi Huangs lore. However, some humans are actually "blessed" by the Gods in the series with different abilities, like Raiden is considered blessed and he has abnormal strength.
Isn't this unquantifiable?
Normal human weapons are made of wood, steel and etc. so no wonder something divine would crush it since it doesn't follow the same logic and we don't know what makes something "divine". Also, even if given the benefit of the doubt then Gods would just be above humans via their actual feats not flowery myth passed down describing them and only 1 statement actually coming close even though you can be continental to moon level and "shatter" the earth. And, again Zeus admits HUMANS are strong, not humans with volundr. Full potential is just humans finally getting something divine and combining with their 7-B feats to damage gods thus bypassing their invulnerability. Bottom line is that BOTH are important and unlock their full potential. So, besides gaining divinity it could very well mean literally combining City level+ and City level+ (even though humans individually are made out to be on par with gods in regards to their strength)
So yeah, my proposal stays the same. Either we downgrade everyone to their actual feats at their full strength or we might give a "possibly 5-B" along side their 7-B's.
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I'd agree with that personally despite being sarcastic
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- #99
Also, I want to mention that Adam basically contradicts Volundrs being planetary or Gods and the idea that they arent invulnerable through divinity. It stated that Adam can perfectly copy whatever is thrown at him by the Gods, which includes their physical prowess. Yet he still needs a Volundr which is divine at all times to damage them with the copied strength and speed. Of course the argument can be made that he still copies the divine but then there wouldn't be a point for Adam to even merge with his valkyrie and 1 more life would be spared. So, even when it seems that there isn't invulnerability through the divine, there is an answer for that.
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Its not merely being divine, powerful yes, but not divine. the whole "prove this is planetary" as no bearing on the argument, the argument is how a Volund functions not its level of power. I'm tired of it clogging up the sentences. The humans that are compared to gods are the ones that fight in ragnarok, the humans that fight in ragnarok use Volund, Zeus comparing them.
Again not part of the issue right now, the level of power is not important here.
because 7-B+ is <<<<< many times weaker than the ragnarok gods in strength, as mentioned throughout the series and narrative. Even to give the benefit of the doubt, 7-b+ who are divine would still/should not be harming the ragnarok gods.
Zeus blood gives you great strength not divinity. Once again giving the benefit of the doubt, assuming they become divine, the stick and rock would not, and would have done no damage. Unless you believe anything and everything someone divine uses becomes divine itself, which would go against the idea that they are specifically forged in heaven for it to be divine. Not only that Hercules has never been stated to have the ability to turn things divine.
Adams ability is to copy any technique/ability related technique, him being needing to Volund to be divine as you mentioned is contradicted by the fact of him killing/harming gods prior to using Volund. The idea of him copying divine attacks would also not work as he was required a Volund to damage Zeus.
It was a god, and Qin Shi fought it with his bare hands. Raiden wasn't blessed, Raiden wasn't even called blessed. He was told that his strength was "a gift from god" by his mother, not by the author, to cheer him up and not let him fall into his depression.
The idea behind Nostradamus is that he is able to destroy a giant inter-dimensional gateway made by the gods without a Volund. If anything would be "divine" i would be that.
theres also buddha spitting his lollipop handle and damaging a god, unless the lollipop handle is now "divine".
The whole idea that something is divine can itself be flowerily language itself, like you said yourself we have no idea what makes something divine. Calling something divine doesn't automatically make it divine, especially given the context and evidence to it not being. In the series it is established that the gods are beings that are much more powerful than humans and that their weapons they've hade through history would not be able to work against them do to their strengths and the strength of their weapons. In doing so the humans perform a Volund which gives them a weapon of their choice that is on par with godly weapons, we also see that that many of the humans physical stats are increased as well as they are able to survive many of the blows given to them.
Nothing within the series has suggest a magical divine mechanism or shown it. This comes from the word divine being used which itself could be synonyms the word god or godly ands just mean a gods weapon.
As mentioned perilously, there was a discussion about the statements about it, it was accepted it could be anywhere from Multi-Continental to planet level, and planet seemed to stick I'm assuming. IDK how that thread is, maybe its linked in the discussion page.
yes he calls the humans he's seen fight and fought strong not all humans, and these humans who he's seen fight and fought have Volunds. Full potential is not just combining the two when their is no invulnerability as shown above and are specifically referred to not have the same strength as them. The idea of Volund is that in increases the strength of the being, this is the most common and logical explanation given with all the evidence we have regarding it. Humans are not made out to be on Par with gods in strength, the gods have multiple time been referred to being above, hence why they need the Volunds to put up a fighting chance.
Adam is stated to copy techniques not physicality, two completely different things. Unless the technique itself increases physicality or gives an ability he won't be able to do as such. Adam needs a volund because he is weaker than Zeus and would not be able to damage him. Doesn't copy speed or strength. You're misinterpreting what is said.
The term "divine" is the source of the notion that gods are divine and invulnerable. This could be taken as flowery terminology that is only used to describe divine beings. The word divine is synonymous with the phrases god or godly and is frequently used in literature to express something's strength as greater than others. If we were to grant the benefit of the doubt, as you also mentioned, we have no understanding how this divinity functions, so you simply assume everything has a magical divine quality to it. Your argument is based on the notion that people are somehow on par with gods, but that they lack "divinity" to harm others since they are not divine, even though this was never proven. The story and context suggest that the gods are just more powerful than them and are not related to anything divine. As was previously established, several gods have suffered harm from both non-divine weapons and non-divine entities, refuting the idea that the divine is impervious to harm. Additionally, Occom's razor and the most reasonable interpretation—that they are just stronger than them—support this notion.
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- #101
It is. Your argument is that Volundrs allow humans to damage planetary gods yet there is no evidence that the same volundrs are planetary. Volundr functions by linking 2 people, be it human and a valkyrie or 2 gods (Buddha or Zerofuku). The only real argument you can make for them achieving the perfect power or fusion or whatever. E.g combining both the power of a human and power of a valkyrie + its divinity.
It is.
Ah yes, except for when they do damage Gods like Thor. We only know Gods are incredibly powerful, not powerful enough to view all of them as fodder. Even Thor himself considered Lu Bu a rival because of his strength.
Zeus blood comes from a divine source, so it must give divinity unless there is a statement that it lost it. And what stick and rock are you referencing? And why couldn't it gain its divinity through touching something? Or better yet, why couldn't strong feats be performed by a divine being using a normal weapon? And even then, I guess Gods are extreme fodder and not planetary if they get damaged by a rock.
Then he shouldn't be able to copy the speed of techniques if he can't copy the strength since both are physical prowess.
So, fodder Gods being harmed by regular humans? Aight, sounds about right and that they have been underestimating them.
We never see the method of how he destroyed it. But Ig the gates are fodder. Unless you have scans for that.
Buddha lollipops after all. But IG then Gods are fodder if their statements don't align with feats, or merely scale to casual Buddha.
They are much more powerful yet have no feats. Literally the only statement is shattering the earth in an unknown way which you can technically be continental, multi-continental or moon level. If divine is truly flowery language then Gods are simply still fodder because they have 0 good feats to back up even 1 Planetary statement.
So, then they are just weak and get damaged by flying rocks. Ok.
With no feats to back them up? Yeah, no. At best they deserve unknown or "at least". There is only 1 semi-valid statement after all and to scale the entire verse with feats that don't even reach island level besides maybe the creation of a storm is outlier as hell.
He just calls humans strong. He admits humans are strong, not only the humans that they have fought. And if volund increases the strength then it's simply "at least" from their current showings.
He copies also the physical prowess or else he couldn't have copied the speed. Techniques themselves are just that, martial arts moves called divine because they are from a god.
The entire argument for planetary level RoR is a single myth statement from Thor. Nothing else works, not even close. Zeus is just praised for being strong by Shiva, flowery in the end. Since he has not showcased planetary feats or range. Then Shiva is already addressed and his planetary statements makes the least amount of sense. And lastly Hajun, who's Helheim destruction shows buildings being destroyed, not the planet or the realm. Even going as far as Hades saying Helheim was rebuilt with building in the background. So yeah, even if I concede the divine argument you have 0 feats to back up a single planetary statement from a myth about Thor. If Planetary was truly intended then the author could have expressed it through Jormungandr yet opted for defending weak Gods hiding behind brick walls from titans.
So, in conclusion Record of Ragnarok Gods are extremely weak and have no showings of planet level destruction or creation, even if we take them literally we don't know the context or the method. Even when being serious and stating they aren't holding back + fighting for their lives and honor, they do not destroy anything much and even in flashbacks when author could show planetary destruction or feats, he doesn't. Opting for more grounded feats and fights.
My proposal is the following.
Option 1: Any top tier God who scales to Lu Bu or above him be rated as...
Option 2: Any top tier God or human who scales to Thor be rated as...
Unless we want to find more feats, not mythological statements with no evidence of them being backed up. One example of this would be Hajun, who has a storm over his head when he appears, or the clouds formation by Heracles and his 12th labour or the God of Storm being implied to create massive thunder storms against Shiva. Because with no feats of backing up a single planetary statement with plenty of feats showing otherwise, its an outlier. Not all Gods in fiction need to be planetary and aren't if they can't demonstrate it. Same goes for record of ragnarok Gods who consider giant walls to be amazing protection against some giants.
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Maybe the latter is doable
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I'm still against the proposals and those option tbh and i'm more trusting on what @azontr and @LordGinSama can capable do here
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- #104
That's fine. It's mostly that there are verses with far higher feats and planetary statements yet they would only receive "possibly" for the planetary part. From the top of my head Saitama is an example. He had a moon level+ feat and stated he could destroy the world yet only received a possibly rating. (Unless I'm misremembering and he didn't even get that lol)
Yet in RoR case their best feats are just city to maybe island level via cloud calculations so "possibly" would be fitting unless the story elaborates more in the future.
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It was "likely far higher", because the statement "I kinda feel like I'd rather just obliterate the whole planet" isn't enough to solidify 5-B by itself. Especially since being 5-C with FTL speed could easily destroy the entire planet very quickly
EDIT: The "likely far higher" was also because "Saitama is likely way more powerful than this depiction of his current feats, since he has ended every battle thus far effortlessly", and his statement isn't as clearcut as a statement like "It can even shatter the Earth"
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Oh, so Record of Ragnarok characters should also be "At least 7-B, likely far higher" since we don't even know the precise strength of none of the gods and they are FTL. Of course thats just one option. I'm fine with "possibly 5-B" anyway. Definitely not a solid and for every God that fights. After all, a single statement with feats that don't even reach continental are not enough to back up a 5-B rating.
azontr
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Just woke up, and yeah @PowerToScale basically covered everything I could've said. I agree with him.
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- #108
He covered the divinity part and everything else I answered IIRC.
So, unless there are feats to back up planet level (there isnt) then we shouldn't scale them to a single statement from mythology coming from Thor who's next best statement is tearing the seas and land which is also extremely vague in it of itself. Maybe "possibly" rating at best which I'm fine with. Or maybe people want to calc the cloud feats so they arent stuck at 7-B from Lu Bu.
So, unless there are feats to back up planet level (there isnt) then we shouldn't scale them to a single statement from mythology coming from Thor who's next best statement is tearing the seas and land which is also extremely vague in it of itself. Maybe "possibly" rating at best which I'm fine with. Or maybe people want to calc the cloud feats so they arent stuck at 7-B from Lu Bu.
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- #110
Your only argument for them being 5-B is basically "Well they are God's and they are strong", repeating it over and over with 0 feats to back it up.
Yeah, true. Actually surprised they haven't already been in this thread.
azontr
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Dude, if you don't get the idea that feats are not strictly necessary to support the rating of a verse then I literally do not know how to help you.
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- #112
Statements are also not needed and often times are far less reliable than the showings of characters. I'd genuinely be surprised if you can show a feat above continent level, let alone ones that back up a single planet level statement. But hey, let's go off of 1 vague "shatter the earth" statement which you wouldn't even need 5-B levels of power to achieve. The other 2 already been addressed.
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disagreed FRA
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I thought you already voted?
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hello your computer has virus-
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A "shatter the earth" statement can be well into High 5-A if calced sooooo
Anyways yeah, Powertoscale kinda covered everything, so I disagree with the thread.
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- #117
It can also be far lower. We have no reason to assume it to be anything close to 5-B when no feats back it up. It's an outlier and should be treated as one until the series presents more statements or feats. So at best it should be rated as "possibly" since it fits the definition of that too.
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There are backup statements, on their own of course it wouldn't get a solid rating, but with 3 of them?
And as has been repeated MULTIPLE TIMES it's a tournament setting, planet busting would make 0 sense to perform cause they're literally deciding the fate of planets here, I'm a massive RoR newbie and I know that.
azontr
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Literally this.
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- #120
Only 1 exists. The other is in reference to Zeus just being strong and I already debunked Shiva.
I do not care if it's a tournament if even the Gods flashbacks and greatest moments don't support planetary statements. And they arent even deciding the fate of planets at all, just humanity.
