• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Re Zero Revisions

Well i guess that what happens when you can't see the episode because you have shitty net and can't find a ******* good service to watch the ******* episode !!!!! xDDD

anyway if he can cut the big hands with ease then it's Cool
 
I already have a Supersonic combat speed calc for Wilhelm using his feat in Episode 22, but just scaling him to Elsa would make matters a lot simpler for me. : P

Well I think Old Wilhelm is at least Building level for now given that he inflicts big wounds on Hakugei with piercing/slashing attacks that are more effective than or comparable to Rem's Al Human. See this vid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyUNfAQ4R3g

Hakugei's already badly hurt but that sword slash at 0:04 is like 25 meters wide. Half that of a football field.

And also this. While not actually hitting the ground.

Wilhelm ground
 
Rem was also wounding the Whale with her normal "physical attacks " even the fodders were wounding him lol dame the whale is not big thing really also Rem attack was one hit thing why are you comparing it to Wilham ? Wilhelm was ripping the poor whale apart in a comedic way when this is slashing him while runnig
 
We went through this: durability doesn't only mean whether you penetrate through the thick skin, but rather if you deal enough energy for the damage to be effective and meaningfully impact the White Whale's battle performance.

If Wilhelm deals effective wounds on Hakugei that are >= Rem's Al Human (which is already Building level whether or not it's scaled to Hakugei) then it would be the same level as her Al Human. In fact out of all the combatants there Wilhelm is the most heavy-hitting. It doesn't make sense that his AP is below Rem to cause damage and pain when he's doing more most of the time.

The AOE is pretty big anyways. 25 meters of width!
 
I don't know how you relation Rem and Wilhelm , Wilhelm was battling the whale and did most of the damage to it While Rem dealt some damage to it with her magic just once also the angle is different Wilhelm was at the top of the whale ripping him apart freely while Rem could barely pierced his mouth xD

If you goes by who did the most of the damage then Wilhelm >>>>>>>>>>>> Rem , The way he damaged the whale is different than Rem

She could do the same if she can run as fast as him lol
 
I think scaling wilheim to elsa is fine in terms of ap and speed not sure about durability though cause elsa survived an attack from reinhard though her regen had a part in that,if her durability wasn't at least close to being able to take that attack even with her regen she would be dead cause an attack like that should have vaporized her if her durability was like say wall level and elsa's regen isn't on that level coming back from vaporization.

I find building level wilheim to be a bit sketchy, even fodder could pierce the whale yes we already went over that it has building level piercing durability cause it took rem's al Human and kept going but since fodder could also pierce and harm it that would make building level fodder which i am not comfortable with.
 
Ah, but this:

Divided Hakugei ignores a vast majority of the fodder attacks

Divided Hakugei partially ignores Al Human attacks (continues pursuing)

Full Hakugei ******* as hell cannot ignore Wilhelm's attacks (he's effectively Crowd-Controlled by the amount of damage)

Whale pain


See that expression? That has 'Building level' written all over the face : P
 
And full hakugei was clearly in pain when the fodder ramed it from the side with their swords and blood was spewing out, again not buying building level imo we should just low ball it's durability to street level against piercing attacks yes it took rem's al Human but it's a gaint whale rem's al Human isn't that big compared to it's body so it could take it and still keep going cause the damage to it isn't that big compared to how massive it is.
 
Yeah but he wasn't Crowd Controlled. The amount of influence that fodder attacks and Wilhelm attacks have on the Whale is different - the amount of Damage is clearly different even though they both bleed.

Are you implying that, by logical comparison, injuring an African Elephant with a kitchen knife and a giant battleaxe is going to be the same, because they both cause bleeding wounds that he reacts to (even though the severity of injury is different)?


And think of the profile page in terms of how other people see and interpret, not how we see and interpret. Making Hakugei Street level will make a lot of people think characters with Wall-level piercing attacks can kill him by virtue of his poor Durability - why, because that's their Perception/Interpretation when they read the page, not ours.


Grrr, so I should just calc that ground slam to get his AP then


My life is so difficult, he's basically my Father
 
Your analogy is correct, the level of damage is different, I know this is confusing for me too, now the whale won't be put down by a wall level attack it will still keep going, however nonetheless it will still take damage and it will take damage from a building level attack but it doesn't mean the two levels of damage are the same but it bleeds from both.

You know what just give the whale building level piercing durability and be done with it, i am just making this more complicated than it needs to be. Wilheim's last slice cut right through the whale by sheer length alone i could believe it's building level.
 
I started analyzing Wilhelm's ground slam feat by angsizing the minimum crater size to Wilhelm's height in the same scene. A 2.7-meter radius crater gives Wilhelm 2.06 tons of TNT equivalent impact force, so if I get the crater calcing method approved, he'll likely approach the threshold for Large Building level. Even a low yield would result in Building level, however (a crater consistent with 0.25 tons).

The thing is whether some people would think it's consistent with the power of a large JDAM impacting at supersonic speeds. : P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dYfaGtA9G4

I will do it tomorrow.
 
So since i have some free time now we can apply some of the upgrades discussed.

So city block level durability for elsa and building level piercing durability fo the whale, anyone disagrees?

I am not too sure about elsa's durability, she did indeed survive reinhards attack but i am now thinking that it was because of her regen as in arc 4 i remember her being cut in half and skewered several times and those weren't city block level attacks, definetly not reinhard level but at the same time if her durability wasn't that high even if she could regen she shouldn't have been able to survive reinhards attack cause that should have vaporized her and she died in a fire in arc 4 so she can't regen from vaporization.

If her durability was that high that it can take an attack from reinhard somebody like garfiel shouldn't be able to hurt her.
 
i am not Buying elsa Durabinlty sadly , someone can tank Reinahrd attack head on shouldn't even be bothered by attacks from Garfiel , Garfiel ripped her apart in arc 4

Unless you think Garfiel is City block level xD
 
If you accept the whale "building level " then you will have army of "building level " fodders when Rem herself is listed as wall level
 
Yea not buying her durability being that high either when she can get ripped apart by gairfiel and garfiel isn't city block level saying he is close to even a casual reinhard is ridiculous, i am chalking it up to either she didn't somehow take the full front of the attack or pis, that fight was already filled with it so i am leaning more towards pis, she only survived an attack from reinhard because she had a role to fulfill later on in the story.
 
So i propose we downgrade elsa's durability to street level, or wall level if we are gonna use her speed to get her ap. Seeing how slow things have been going i will up reinhard's ap to city block level since that calc has been accepted will up it again if the whale calc is accepted, will wait for the whales durability to get accepted before i do anything to it.
 
Elsa should Physically be weaker than Garfiel and Rem so maybe street level is better but she can go higher if she use her speed < Yeah this is perfect in my eyes

I think we should upgrade Reinhard already
 
Ok gonna upgrade reinhard, as for elsa though the high to low end ratio of wall level is 4194x so gairfield, rem and elsa all could be wall level while rem and gairfiel are far stronger than her.
 
I propose making 2 profiles for Elsa's Durability. For example,

Wall level normally | City Block level with Regenerationn

The reason for this is, again, information visibility - how visible the info is to people that can inform them how much of Elsa's regen abilities are factored into play during versus threads.

For example, Master Chief is Small Building level+ normally in his armor with an empty shield, but becomes Large Building level with his regening shield (up to City Block level+ under the normal shield's regen effects).

This is even though this Large Building level shield can still be depleted by Wall level gunshots over time.

The regening shield feature allows Master Chief to survive, just briefly, attacks that he normally won't be able to, like a City Block one.

For this reason Master Chief has been given at least 6 durabilities depending on how recharged or overcharged his shield is. We only need 2 for Elsa to do the same.

In short, Elsa's regen body/Master Chief's regen shield allow them to survive single-source City Block level damages (Reinhard's sword blast/hypersonic+ impact with a spaceship), or multiple weaker attacks over time (Garfiel's attack/gunshots from machineguns).


For the fire that completely killed Elsa, we need another calc to gauge its exact energy level and duration. As I've pointed out before, freezing/melting feats are damage-over-time attacks scaled to object's melting points (in the fire's case, rocks with nearly 2000C) and this tends to give them very high energy levels compared to explosions that only last fraction of seconds.


For example, this is just my approximate guess right now but any fire that can burn through the floors and different sections of Roswaal's Mansion will have pretty high Town-level energy values comparable to D&D Red Dragons (which have much smaller AoEs) and Puck's attacks to do the same. Such fire is going to be very high temperature that may not necessarily be replicated with a City Block-level attack. (since City Block attacks normally can't produce such temperatures or deal that much damage to a huge building complex that's already 1.5 to 3 times larger in size than an actual city block, and denser)


So it's no wonder that someone can be killed by it if exposed to it for a long period of time, and not die if the exposure is only very brief.


So to make the long story short, I propose making Elsa durability: Wall level normally | City Block level with Regenerationn (with a link to the calc page I made)

This is just to allow people to note that Elsa has regen, and what would be the upper limit for her regen potential. (up to City Block level but not above that) The reason is purely visibility to note her abilities affecting durability in a versus setting.

Without doing that, people would, again, think Elsa is only Wall level throughout even with her regen, even though she can actually survive larger level attacks with regen (with it she can survive Room level or Building levels), because that's their assumption upon just reading the profile page. Most of them only read it for like few ten seconds to come up with conclusions.


(And also because the calc page is going to be useless soon without using it for Elsa. I spent a lot of time on that page just for Elsa, heh)


You can already make Reinhard 8-A to likely Low 7-C using the Puck page.

At least 8-A to Likely Low 7-C (Superior to Puck)


Later it would become

At least 7-C (can kill a Hakugei effortlessly)


His sword blasts have enough AoE effects to qualify as an explosive ability.


White Whale's durability is

Building level normally against physical attacks (piercing or slashing attacks from physical weapons and Al Human) | Town level against explosions or blunt trauma (when the calc page is evaluated)


Putting it at just Street level makes it more complicated to explain and confusing (see how much words you used there inside the () in the current description), for example people will really think someone can kill him by carving his skin with a kitchen knife... -_- Visibility of info matters because most people won't read the wiki pages for long, they need the main idea get across quickly.


However, if Wilhelm gets an upgrade to Large Building level with his single-hit sword slash due to crater, then White Whale's durability will also scale to being able to survive Wilhelm's sword attacks for a long time.
 
That was a really long paragraph lol, ok first of all masterchief's regen shields aren't the same as elsa's regen, master chief has a shield that can take damage and regen it seems to me that the shield is just regen so fast that it can take higher levels of damage, either that or the regen is being used incorrectly as i noticed on some other pages involving characters who can regen

Regen and durability aren't the same thing, if you have like high level regen and your natural durability is wall level it doesn't matter whether you are hit with a building level attack or a mountain level attack you will still come back from that because there is something of you left.

The energy of the flames have nothing to do with elsa's regen, elsa has only from my knowledge been shown to have low-mid regen, in other words she could still die from being decapitated so while she could take an attack that's say city level if it was like a focused attack on her stomach if you blow off her head she would be dead. You see the fire would just have to be able to completely destroy her head it doesn't need to be town level.

Elsa still got cut in half by garfiel who is from what we know wall level maybe potentially room level if we high ball, she survived yes but that's cause of her regen not cause of durability, her surviving against reinhard is complete pis, her regen isn't that high that she can take a head on city block level attack from reinhard, i am no calcer but pretty sure that if some one with wall level durabilty took such an attack their head would explode and elsa shouldn't be able to regen from that.

Ok will upgrade reinhard based on the puck feat.
 
Wall level normally | City Block level with Regenerationn

lol you can't make profile that way the durability and Regenerationn are completely different things Elsa got ripped apart by Garfiel making her "Wall level " at best and even then we're not sure because he riped her apart
 
So you are saying she did not survive Reinhard's City Block level attack?


Let's see VSBattles' description of Durability:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Durability
City Block level (Able to survive an explosion powerful enough to wipe out a city block)


---> Elsa is unable to survive an explosion powerful enough to wipe out a city block


But eh, she just did? I am the one who made that calc. This isn't a power scaling, she was actually there in the explosion.


I mean you are still looking at the profile in terms of how you see it, not in terms of how other people who meets the character for the first time would see it


I don't know what's so difficult about writing:

At least Wall level normally (Elsa can still be hurt by Garfiel's attack) | Likely City Block level with regenerative abilities (she survived attack that can destroy a city block)


In order to deliver all the combat-related information we can provide with empirical data for a VS match up that people can use lol


I mean the entire purpose of that calculation was to give people viable information on how much energy it released, and how much of it Elsa was able to endure because of her Regenerationn. Without this information being provided the calculation loses all its purpose.


That scene is Elsa's signature survival feat in the entire novel, and I do not agree with marginalizing this information. At least not until you find some other way to link that calculation page to Elsa's profile, in any other way as long as it is linked and people can see it. At least you link it that so that people are aware of the fact her Regenerationn allows her to recover from that level of attack, how much that attack's energy is. This is a vital information for any VS match up.


Ree1
 
She survived it , survived "city block " level attack but later got ripped apart by "Wall level attacks "and her resignation isn't "high " because she was killed from the fire < see the logic here ?

Elsa surviving Reinahrd attacks in pis
 
The fact that she was covered in rubble of what used to be the house's wall suggests she did not tank the full attack but merely got grazed by it. Else, she would be covered in rubble of what used to be a stone wall.
 
Then we have to calc Elsa's speed to evade it then, since Reinhard won't miss hitting Elsa in normal circumstances.


Reinhard's Initiative DP specifically states that all his initial attacks connect.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Reinhard_van_Astrea

Initiative: He cannot be ambushed, and all initial attacks from Reinhardt connect.


This is true at least inside his own universe against a low-level combatant like Elsa.


If Reinhard missed hitting her then you have to prove it. I already proved that Reinhard's attack is City Block and it is very likely Mach 30 Hypersonic+ (if it gets approved)


And seriously, there's a big difference between tanking a single City Block attack, and tanking multiple Wall - Room level attacks, and we haven't even calculated yet how much damage Garfiel is doing to Roswaal's mansion. (which is at least 150 meters wide with an unknown floor thickness) Again we can't measure APs by their area of effect unless it's specifically observed to be an explosion. We can certainly make future calcs that can invalidate previous calcs in an iterative manner, but we can't just assume it when there's another mathematically proven calc that overrides it at the current date, until the new calc gets accepted.
 
You still doesn't' get it her Regenerationn does not grant her the ability to survive "City block " level attack when her duranbilty is "wall level " at best She didn't show that level of Regenerationn

Either that attack didn't hit her directly "she doge at last second " and faked her death for them to let their guard down , that or it's just PIS
 
And I'm saying you have to actually prove that. You have to prove it because you made me make an actual calc that counters your statement. That's how VSBattles works to invalidate calculations when they are provided.

Nothing in the images used for the calculation indicates that she did not get hit by the attack.

Make a calc for how fast she can dodge the attack given the images provided, given the effect of Reinhard's Initiative DP, and also calc how much damage Garfiel was actually doing that can override Reinhard's calculation.

The width of the attack is 14.27 meters inside the Warehouse. Calc how much speed she needs to escape that blast.

Garfiel can't make a single City Block level attack but he can certainly deal hundreds of Room level attacks to take down an opponent. At Supersonic combat speed that only takes a few minutes or so.
 
Hienkel what you are not getting is that we are saying regen doesn't grant durability that's not how it's suppose to work, as i already said if there is a character that can regen from a single atom for instance it doesn't matter how powerful the attacks are that they take they will still survive it unless the opponent can destroy their atoms.

Now that's an extreme case but the point is when you have regen you are able to take attacks even above your level and still keep going because regen has nothing to do with durability if the opponent can't get past your regen you will keep getting back up, it doesn't mean that because of your regen you have say town level durability as you survived a town level attack no it's cause the magnitude of the attack means nothing unless the opponent can get past the regen.

Elsa doesn't have high level regen so she should not logically be able to survive an attack so far beyond her level, hence the only conclusion is it's pis why she survived because their is no way she should have been able to survive that.

Also we don't count attack accumulation on here even if someone below a another character's tier hit them a 100 times it won't damage them.
 
So, again, are we not going to show people the calc for Reinhard's sword blast energy that Elsa survived on her profile page?


By regen or whatev, they can just come to the same conclusion you just did if you are correct. It's correct after all, and logical, so they can make that conclusion by themselves.


Can I delete the blog now then? It's a useless feat anyway (even though it's the most important one that serves as a 'gating' ability for any combatant who subs Subaru/Reinhard in a scenario VS match up)
 
Well it's not important since we have better feats however i don't think it should be deleted.

Yes, in vs battles when discussing regen we don't talk about the magnitude of an attack that a character survived, we don't say well so and so regen from a city level attack.

What we talk about is the level of regen the character has, can they regen from fatal injuries, can they regen from a puddle of blood, an atom etc, which actually plays a big part in match ups if two characters were completely equal except one had regen that one would win, elsa's regen is already indicated on her page, so people will know.
 
I mean the important part is that she survived Reinhard's City Block attack.

Consider this.

An explosion type attack that destroys a city block will decapitate something with Wall level durabilities at point-blank range.

We have already used decapitation to measure Puck's MCB -> Small Town attack, so we can use the same formula to confirm if this is the case (how much PSI it is at Elsa's location during a 15.5 tons of TNT explosion, with Reinhard serving as the ground zero (it being a focused blast will actually increase the overpressure/force considerably))

Such as, should Reinhard's attack cause decapitation or not cause decapitation on a Wall-level person (I think the answer is, for now, yes)? how much durability must Elsa have for her not to be decapitated and allow the regen to kick in?

And people will not know that.

And like you said her regen would not allow her to survive the attack given its nature at her current durability (something that will cause decapitation in Wall/Room level people), yet she did. If she dodged it then we also have to calc the speed that allows her to dodge it.

The only indirect evidence we have that she can't survive the attack is scaling Roswaal's Mansion to Garfiel, when none of us has actually read the WN in the proper language or has seen images to support the hypothesis. (because Roswaal's Mansion is actually very large and durable against fragmentation, especially its thick floors and load-bearing walls) It doesn't involve an actual calc that overrides the previously calc that directly put Elsa in it surviving the blast.

Even if she's not City Block level, we still have to make another calc that measures what durability she must have to avoid being decapitated by such an attack.

Because Wall level durability will not allow her to regenerate.
 
Heinkel Astrea said:
Then we have to calc Elsa's speed to evade it then, since Reinhard won't miss hitting Elsa in normal circumstances.
Initiative: He cannot be ambushed, and all initial attacks from Reinhardt connect.
Click to expand...
She was pretty damaged after the attack, so technically, it hit even if it was only a graze. That's my understanding of it.
 
That still doesn't answer the question how durable she must be to avoid decapitation by Reinhard's attack at her distance (or how fast she must be). She needs to survive decapitation to regenerate.

I'm more or less a calc person for Re:Zero by this point, so while other people might just want to write it off as PIS, I want to (and may actually, without enough material) quantify this feat physically. We can also quantify how much Earth Magic-enhanced strength Garfiel must have in order to damage Roswaal Mansion. I'm just going by what I already used for the Warehouse and the City Wall, but you can't do that with Wall/Room level attacks (5 kg of TNT or the force of an 81mm hand-held mortar for Room/Small Building). If he's only Wall level then we need to make the calcs to corroborate this, since, at least so far, he's causing damage to the building, and thereby Elsa, that Wall level-limit people cannot.

In short Wall-level upper limit for Garfiel is an assumption. It is not supported by calcs that can easily exceed that limit. I made an approve calc for Elsa so I also want another calc of proportional viability to prove it wrong as an outlier, with mathematical means.

Wall-level Elsa also cannot survive Reinhard's blast with her head intact to regenerate, unless she's much faster than Supersonic. That's also at least by existing calculations.

We won't use the blog anymore so I will make use of the blog (which is basically only for Elsa by this point) for that in the future.
 
All we know about elsa's regen is that it allows her to recover from fatal injuries, elsa being able to take reinhard's attack is clearly pis as she shouldn't have been able to regen from such an attack.

Her durability hasn't been proven to be anything above wall level, we always try to be conservative on this site until credible evidence is brought to sway us one way or the other. We don't know the upper limits of garfiel or elsa because we don't have access to the material now i could very well see garfiel reaching building level with magic but i can't prove it, we need proof.

From what we know we can only assume elsa to have wall level durability as their isn't enough proof to say otherwise, someone with low-mid regen shouldn't be able to survive a city block level feat when they die in a fire and get ripped in half by from what we know, a wall level character.

Trying to find elsa's durability from calc how durable she has to be to avoid decapitation is looking too deep into the feat, it cannot be anything but pis imo unless you want to say that casual reinhard=garfiel which is ridiculous garfiel ripped elsa in half, garfiel is mid tier at best, like rem level, he shouldn't be comparable to a casual reinhard.
 
Garfiel is already at least comparable to Kurgan given what he had done in Arc 5 as he fought in Priestella city blocks. But I will just take the easy way and make an actual calc for how strong Garfiel is with future material. It's not like my initial expectation for Reinhard's Mach 5/100 suddenly jumped to Mach 13/260 when I made the actual calc anyway.

I don't even know why you asked me to calc the City Wall if you already had an answer all along that it's PIS. It's you who initially claimed that the feat looks to be Large Building - City Block and would use it for Elsa, which is now PIS, not once but multiple times. It took me many weeks to make that calc work

Yeah just make her Wall level, I'll find something else to recuperate for my wasted time
 
I am sorry if I wasted your time, yes I did think it would scale to Elsa however it was just today that I realized that it couldn't be scaled to her.I am also just trying to make sense of all the feats, I can make mistakes.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Celestial_Pegasus
Re Zero Side Story Revisions
Replies
21
Views
2K
Celestial_Pegasus
Celestial_Pegasus
Celestial_Pegasus
Re Zero Speed is Messy
2
Replies
72
Views
5K
Celestial_Pegasus
Celestial_Pegasus
Zabazab
[Re:Zero] Arc 8 High Tier AP Upgrade
Replies
16
Views
2K
Zabazab
Zabazab
Starmegalo
Much Needed CRT on Re Zero
Replies
0
Views
862
Starmegalo
Starmegalo
Zabazab
[Re:Zero] Speed is Messy 2 – Electric Boogaloo
Replies
37
Views
3K
Zabazab
Zabazab
Back
Top