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It was a nagging thing I had but never mentioned
Probably too vague to scale Wario's Low 2-C to anyone else outside of his own series
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Re-examining Super Mario cast Tiers
- Thread starter TMaakkonen
- Start date
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- Tags
- super mario
Probably too vague to scale Wario's Low 2-C to anyone else outside of his own series
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The Wario and DK shit has always been dumb to me. Literally nothing says they are different characters so having separate keys doesn't make sense.
Do we give Tails and Knuckles separate keys for their solo games? Do we give Luigi a Luigi's Mansion key or Yoshi a Yoshi's Island key despite YI being probably the series with the biggest differences in it now that Wooly and Crafted are a thing?
It's just so stupid.
Do we give Tails and Knuckles separate keys for their solo games? Do we give Luigi a Luigi's Mansion key or Yoshi a Yoshi's Island key despite YI being probably the series with the biggest differences in it now that Wooly and Crafted are a thing?
It's just so stupid.
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Unfortunately that thread didn't go through sooooooooo...
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So? Doesn't make it not the dumbest shit.
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Mario supporters have a habit of trying to have their cake and eat it too.
DragonLord
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Not much really says there same ether, I think at the end of the day, while you can argue that Luigi’s Mansion or Yoshi’s Island has roots in the main Mario brand, it seems Nintendo has no interest in Wario and DK outside there own franchises, hell Mario Vs DK, despite using the Rare design, implies that the DK in the the game is the same one from the Arcade
Wario specifically is extremely inconsistent in his portrayal, if the Profiles are to stay consistent in portrayals and power levels (I mean really they can’t decide if Wario is a threat anymore), I think separating keys makes sense in his case
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You told people not to bring up Sonic and criticized the low blows at another franchise's fanbase.
So stop doing it yourself. That message wasn't needed and only insults some of the people in this thread.
So stop doing it yourself. That message wasn't needed and only insults some of the people in this thread.
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Don't be a hypocrite Smashor.
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Blem, even without the Wario Land feat we’ve still got Sammer Kingdom, Bowser surviving the universe’s destruction, Grand Stars, and two other feats about to be accepted on the other thread, so I’m fine with moving the Wario Land feat to its key.
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There's a difference between complaining about a franchise and bringing up another one. Am I out of line? Probably. But I'm not a hypocrite.
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No, I think some people are just extremely nitpicky for no good reason.
"Nothing says they are the same" is such a bad argument. The point of different keys is to explain what's so contradictory that they require such keys. Nothing contradicts Wario and DK in their series being the same. Nothing.
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I still greatly disagree with using an English-only guide for a Japanese game made by Japanese people, the main creator of the character in question specifically not knowing English.
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You are taking low blows when you told someone off from doing it.
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The removal of the Wario Land and DKC keys was rejected. While I also think they’re dumb you’d have to make a separate thread to get them removed.
Also let’s stay on topic yeah?
Also let’s stay on topic yeah?
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I told someone not to bring up Sonic the Hedgehog in this Mario thread. There's a difference between a low blow and derailment.
DragonLord
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Man there’s that word again, getting kinda tired of this
You mean like how Wario is a successful treasure Hunter with a giant magic mansion, a broke game developer in a run down house, some random schemer trying to cheat sports events with a random purple dude and Mario’s ally in saving Peach, or how Nintendo still can’t decide on what the DK family tree is?, I feel that these character portrayals aren’t exactly as consistent as some think
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The reason the other dude was told off wasn't because he was bringing up another verse as comparison, it was because he was taking low blows and inciting shit, even if it's on topic, a low blow and incitement is still a low blow and incitement.
Reaper ain't wrong dude, let's not be hypocritical.
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as far as i remember wario never saved princess peach for good intentions he was always there for a good reason, be it money, her kiss, he was always greedy and someone looking for a treasure that has to do with money, i don't remember any other game having a different personality.
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Eh, arguing semantics for any longer would be derailing at this point...
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Wario does not give a rat's ass about romance in most of his games. IIRC he's saved princesses before and not cared about any affection or thanks they showed him unless it was made of gold.
DragonLord
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Mario 64 DS to my memory he was just, there, he wouldn’t go through all that for Cake if it was Wario Land Wario
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and that's what I said, he has always been a greedy looking for a reward that is gold, in no other mario game that he has appeared has he had a different personality to the one he has always had.
DragonLord
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And Peach had no Gold for him, besides considering other games Wario has such a deep hate for Mario I’d doubt that would be good enough to work with him
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The topic has already been adamantly detested by a sum of people with no real counters.
This OP is just a conglomeration of every PIS scene and game mechanics arguments made to what? Show the inconsistency of the Mario franchise? We've already known that. What's the next point? Downgrading? The Uni debunks were debunked already and talked about and we are in the process of evaluating some others, and the review one has already been almost unanimously rejected so I fail to see why you're bringing it up.
Even if you wanted a downgrade, to what end are you willing to argue? Using these very same anti-feats that are story related you'd unironically have to support Tier 9 Mario as the consistent tier, but again, the fault in this is that these PIS arguments can be used to downgrade plenty of verses because of a plot relevant anti-feat. Do you know how many verses with characters around 9-A or Tier 8 exist where a small rock blockade forces them to find another way despite being easily able to blast through them or a building crumbling on top of them is seen as dangerous despite a dura feat like that only needing like 9-B durability?
Zelda is a pretty good example of these same arguments being used against a verse. Link NEEDS the gauntlets in OoT and a few other games to lift and destroy large blockades. But he would naturally have the strength to pulverize these stone/rock blockades easily going by lore and powerscaling. Should we now downgrade Link because this is somewhat of a consistent story/plot thing?
The answer is no. You don't do that. It should be common sense. There are so many anti-feats against even Tier 7, the supposedly "most consistent" tier according to others if you use all the arguments you used here. This is literally in support of a mass Tier 9 downgrade using PIS and Game Mechanics.
This OP is just a conglomeration of every PIS scene and game mechanics arguments made to what? Show the inconsistency of the Mario franchise? We've already known that. What's the next point? Downgrading? The Uni debunks were debunked already and talked about and we are in the process of evaluating some others, and the review one has already been almost unanimously rejected so I fail to see why you're bringing it up.
Even if you wanted a downgrade, to what end are you willing to argue? Using these very same anti-feats that are story related you'd unironically have to support Tier 9 Mario as the consistent tier, but again, the fault in this is that these PIS arguments can be used to downgrade plenty of verses because of a plot relevant anti-feat. Do you know how many verses with characters around 9-A or Tier 8 exist where a small rock blockade forces them to find another way despite being easily able to blast through them or a building crumbling on top of them is seen as dangerous despite a dura feat like that only needing like 9-B durability?
Zelda is a pretty good example of these same arguments being used against a verse. Link NEEDS the gauntlets in OoT and a few other games to lift and destroy large blockades. But he would naturally have the strength to pulverize these stone/rock blockades easily going by lore and powerscaling. Should we now downgrade Link because this is somewhat of a consistent story/plot thing?
The answer is no. You don't do that. It should be common sense. There are so many anti-feats against even Tier 7, the supposedly "most consistent" tier according to others if you use all the arguments you used here. This is literally in support of a mass Tier 9 downgrade using PIS and Game Mechanics.
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The Toads and I believe the manual still call him greedy and motivated by selfish reasons. I think it's even inferred he wants the Power Stars because they're shiny and give power.
DragonLord
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I’m looking at the Manual and I don’t see anything other then calling Luigi and Wario Party Crashers, though really no matter his goals i don’t think it makes sense he’s working with Mario, the entire point of him treasure hunting in Wario Land is that he wants to be bigger then Mario, Beating Mario goes over his desire to get shiny things
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Implying that many mario characters doesn't have mutiple roles and works
DragonLord
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And Wario can be both Broke and Extremely Rich at the same time?
hell, even in this thread I’ve brought evidence that some of these Roles aren’t considered Legitimate by Miyamoto, he himself says that Dr. Mario is “probably Illegitimate”
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Sure.
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Welcome to fiction.
DragonLord
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I’m sorry to say but even on Canon’s that do consider such contradictory things canon, the Wiki can Seperate them for consistency, see basically anything with Comics or old Cartoons, the exact thing Miyamoto compared Mario canon too
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So the only thing worth talking about is what the "consistent' tier is (which is 9 going by these arguments) or what we can do about the inconsistency.
People said a Varies tier wouldn't work but I think there is support for Mario gaining strength over time, but even then that's inconsistent because people would just be like, "well Odyssey the most recent entry shows him getting momentarily dazed from a long fall off a building."
Multiple Keys is absolutely not going to work and different profiles require too much personal interpretation. There's a reason almost any "Mario Timeline" thread or video will have vastly differing opinions and critiques. It just simply doesn't work. Any interpretation on Mario Canon is just that -- an interpretation. It's not fact. Fact is that Nintendo does not care for Mario canon.
People will say Mario Party should be separate for a plethora of reasons, but at the end of the day some Mario Party games still have them being returned back to "the real world" or literally do take place in their world for the later entries. Mario Party 6's manual or whatever seems to be the only time a "Mario Party World" was mentioned and it COULD just be referring to that specific game only or the board game world like the one in the treasure chest in MP3 or the ones in boxes in MP4. There's even specific statements of Mario and Co. leaving "their world" and heading to another land/world in Mario Party 5 and Island Tour. No mentions of a Mario Party World. Hell, the plot of Mario Party 7 has Toadsworth planning a vacation for Mario and friends for helping save the world plenty of times and fighting evil. If this was just related to the MP series the world was only ever in danger in like... Mario Party 2 maybe??? The rest were dream worlds, a misunderstanding with Bowser who didn't even plot world domination, a benevolent Star, a quarrel with the Sun and Moon that weren't evil and didn't threaten the world at all and that's really it. So this plot and a few others wouldn't make sense if it was truly just a different world entirely from the other series.
Paper Mario I'd rather not go into at the moment. Just too much.
And Mario & Luigi is definitely not getting a key. I don't even know why someone brought it up.
People said a Varies tier wouldn't work but I think there is support for Mario gaining strength over time, but even then that's inconsistent because people would just be like, "well Odyssey the most recent entry shows him getting momentarily dazed from a long fall off a building."
Multiple Keys is absolutely not going to work and different profiles require too much personal interpretation. There's a reason almost any "Mario Timeline" thread or video will have vastly differing opinions and critiques. It just simply doesn't work. Any interpretation on Mario Canon is just that -- an interpretation. It's not fact. Fact is that Nintendo does not care for Mario canon.
People will say Mario Party should be separate for a plethora of reasons, but at the end of the day some Mario Party games still have them being returned back to "the real world" or literally do take place in their world for the later entries. Mario Party 6's manual or whatever seems to be the only time a "Mario Party World" was mentioned and it COULD just be referring to that specific game only or the board game world like the one in the treasure chest in MP3 or the ones in boxes in MP4. There's even specific statements of Mario and Co. leaving "their world" and heading to another land/world in Mario Party 5 and Island Tour. No mentions of a Mario Party World. Hell, the plot of Mario Party 7 has Toadsworth planning a vacation for Mario and friends for helping save the world plenty of times and fighting evil. If this was just related to the MP series the world was only ever in danger in like... Mario Party 2 maybe??? The rest were dream worlds, a misunderstanding with Bowser who didn't even plot world domination, a benevolent Star, a quarrel with the Sun and Moon that weren't evil and didn't threaten the world at all and that's really it. So this plot and a few others wouldn't make sense if it was truly just a different world entirely from the other series.
Paper Mario I'd rather not go into at the moment. Just too much.
And Mario & Luigi is definitely not getting a key. I don't even know why someone brought it up.
DragonLord
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I feel this point is flawed for similar reasons I find Luigi mention Golf in Paper Mario flawed, in the end Mario is a Hero, he’s known for saving things and fighting evil, just because a game mentions that Mario fought evil in the past doesn’t mean that it’s specifically the ones you see in other games, theoretically, you can take any heroic character and say that they fought evil in the past, that doesn’t in of itself make it canon to other media of said character
I’d also say that even if Mario Party connects to the Mainline games, that doesn’t inherently mean that the Mainline Games connect to Mario Party, plenty of canon’s have Canon’s where they use the primary source material but the primary source material doesn’t use it
In terms of Mario & Luigi, I feel like they just don’t really fit Nintendo’s Mario from feel to art style to character interaction and world, the games are consistent to eachother of course, in fact Mario & Luigi is probably the most continuity filled sub series out of Mario, but when it comes to say, how Luigi is treated in Mainline Games vs M&L, it’s like Night and Day
I wouldn’t be too against it staying on a theoretical Main Canon key though
This can be said about making it all count too, something which Even Miyamoto doesn’t seem to agree on calling certain Jobs “illegitimate” to Mario, really the only consistency to Mario stories is the ones that belong to same Series, like I said something like M&L or Paper Mario or Wario Land are consistent to themselves but I don’t entirely jell with how the other games treat the characters
hell, even inside the company you can see this, the Director of Wario Land Shake it called Wario “Cool and Masculine” and not stupid, and not even Evil, other people at Nintendo also choosed Wario for WarioWares icon because he was Extremely Stupid and incompetent
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People call you nitpicky for a reason.
This is all interpretive feelings and personal beliefs you're throwing at us.
"I feel"s and "I think"s instead of hard statement or fact. We don't downgrade a verse based on some interpretation that requires evidence be made for it. That interpretation needs to have grounds and not a truck load of contradictions.
And why can't Wario be both cool and stupid? Masculine and incompetent? You're literally grasping at straws for inconsistencies with that one.
Luigi is the same scrawny coward that gets made fun of across all of the series. Mario is literally a mascot made to play whatever role they want him to serve beyond the traditional "good guy/hero". Wario is still disgusting and gross and greedy and selfish. Finding very small things to criticize about their characterizations contributes nothing.
This is all interpretive feelings and personal beliefs you're throwing at us.
"I feel"s and "I think"s instead of hard statement or fact. We don't downgrade a verse based on some interpretation that requires evidence be made for it. That interpretation needs to have grounds and not a truck load of contradictions.
And why can't Wario be both cool and stupid? Masculine and incompetent? You're literally grasping at straws for inconsistencies with that one.
Luigi is the same scrawny coward that gets made fun of across all of the series. Mario is literally a mascot made to play whatever role they want him to serve beyond the traditional "good guy/hero". Wario is still disgusting and gross and greedy and selfish. Finding very small things to criticize about their characterizations contributes nothing.
DragonLord
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Then baby I’ll do nitpicking the best I can
Mario Canon is Subjective
Because the Views of the two people just inherently contradict, Wario in Wario Land is this fearless strong Treasure Hunter that’ll piledrive his enemies mercilessly, WarioWare Wario is scummy slob GameDev who’s consistently the butt of every joke and can’t even match children, it’s clearly not the same take on the character, maybe closer to the more random cheater Of the Mario Spin offs at best, this Isn’t even going into his role in Mario 64 DS
Luigi does get fun off time to time, but not to the extent of M&L, that’s a whole different tier where everyone, even the Heroes just constantly make fun of Luigi
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DragonLord
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Another update on this, apparently there is a whole verse that just uses Varies, IDW Transformers
Wonder how long that’ll stick
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Don't see the need for a varies there, it would probably should just be a high and low end like everyone else.
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Before I debunk this thread, I just want to bring up something that the OP has ignored.
vsbattles.fandom.com
vsbattles.fandom.com
These are literal rules on the site, and realistically speaking I shouldn't have to explain this.
but fine... since people want a debunk I'll give them one
WarioWare is a comedic series about Wario developing games to make money. Why did you use this to debunk actual adventure titles? Literally in the same video you sent, Wario is seen eating a cake, getting cavities, and getting launched into the dentist office. If you REALLY want to apply actual power scaling logic to this game, Wario getting launched into space by a train is literally impossible. He gets launched into space team rocket style by a train. He is in front of it and somehow gets launched into the air? And you want to make this an anti feat? Wario struggling with a little kid somehow debunks his other feats when the entire game is comedic and not serious once so ever?
We call this.. plot induced stupidity my friend. Bowser "dying" from Lava is just a reference to the old Mario games and doesn't contradict his actual scaling. Bowser being unconscious from a fall is a plot device. But ok, say this is still "legitamate".
This is Goku.
Goku is Universal during the Resurrection F Saga.
Goku gets shot by a bullet.
Is Goku not Universal anymore because he got shot? Or is it a plot device?
And the flaws in your reasoning doesn't stop there. No. It gets even worse. Bowser's lower end feats literally contradict what you're saying.
Bowser can swim in a hot tub of acid
Bowser can tank lava after losing a Grand Star, and still be alive during the next cutscene.
There's probably even more lower end feats that I'm missing, but regardless you are literally arguing for ******* Wall Level, yet Bowser has shown much higher feats ignoring scaling.
Mario can damage Bowser in Superstar Saga by jumping on him.
Mario can even damage Bowser in the NSMB titles with fireballs. Fireballs are shown to be weaker than his jumps when you look at his fights with the koopalings. Mario not being able to damage Bowser is nothing more than a game mechanic.
Oh and if you want to argue that the POW Block isn't Uni+ because it didn't destroy the space time continuum when Mario hits it, refer to this.
"A character with a certain degree of attack potency does not necessarily need to cause destructive feats on that level, but can cause damage to characters that can withstand such forces. As such it isn't proof of a low attack potency, if a character's attacks only cause a small amount of destruction."
"We are aware that this technically violates the principle of conservation of energy, as it should logically disperse upon impact, but fiction generally tends to ignore this fact, so we overlook it as well."
after this there seems to be a constant regurgitation of the same terrible arguments, which I already explained why they are wrong.
This is Sakura
Sakura is shown to be weaker than Naruto in terms of plot.
Sakura beats up Naruto CONSTANTLY in the series.
I guess Sakura is just more powerful than Naruto then...
They scale to the antagonist of the story.
The antagonist is literally the most relevant part of the game. They are what starts the game. Beating them is the most relevant feat. It is why Goku scales to Jiren. It's why Naruto scales to Toneri. It's why Super Sonic scales to Solaris.
And then that's why other showings of the same tier hold up. Mario and co. surviving the destruction of Sammer Kingdom holds up, because it supports the idea that they have Universal+ durability. Bowser surviving the end of Galaxy, that supports Uni+ durability. Bowser destroying dreams that are entire universes? Supports Low 2-C. Olly folding the very fabric of reality and can beat Uni+ Mario, supports Low 2-C. Characters scaling to Mario who is tier 2? They are Universal+ too. Even random battles with Bowser support it because Bowser has uni+ durability to begin with.
If you wanna discuss the validity of the Low 2-C feats, sure. But don't try and use these "anti-feats" that could be applied to the entire site.
Plot-Induced Stupidity
Plot-Induced Stupidity, or PIS for short, is a term used to refer to events in a story that contradict a character's normal capabilities for the purpose of the plot. For example, if a generally competent, intelligent villain does something stupid like not killing the hero immediately when he has...
vsbattles.fandom.com
Game Mechanics
Game Mechanics refers to the abilities shown in games (usually video games) that are determined by the rules of the game (examples include hit points, levels, statistics, world map crossing in seconds outside of cinematics, etcetera) and are not necessarily indicative of a character's or...
vsbattles.fandom.com
These are literal rules on the site, and realistically speaking I shouldn't have to explain this.
but fine... since people want a debunk I'll give them one
WarioWare is a comedic series about Wario developing games to make money. Why did you use this to debunk actual adventure titles? Literally in the same video you sent, Wario is seen eating a cake, getting cavities, and getting launched into the dentist office. If you REALLY want to apply actual power scaling logic to this game, Wario getting launched into space by a train is literally impossible. He gets launched into space team rocket style by a train. He is in front of it and somehow gets launched into the air? And you want to make this an anti feat? Wario struggling with a little kid somehow debunks his other feats when the entire game is comedic and not serious once so ever?
And this is a garbage comparison. These games (as well as others with a legitimate plot) have actual stakes at hand, and real antagonists that cause the adventure to start before hand. Comedic moments in these games are not relevant to the fact that they have to fight against the trials ahead. And I will get into this concept more later on.
We call this.. plot induced stupidity my friend. Bowser "dying" from Lava is just a reference to the old Mario games and doesn't contradict his actual scaling. Bowser being unconscious from a fall is a plot device. But ok, say this is still "legitamate".
This is Goku.
Goku is Universal during the Resurrection F Saga.
Goku gets shot by a bullet.
Is Goku not Universal anymore because he got shot? Or is it a plot device?
And the flaws in your reasoning doesn't stop there. No. It gets even worse. Bowser's lower end feats literally contradict what you're saying.
Bowser can swim in a hot tub of acid
Bowser can tank lava after losing a Grand Star, and still be alive during the next cutscene.
There's probably even more lower end feats that I'm missing, but regardless you are literally arguing for ******* Wall Level, yet Bowser has shown much higher feats ignoring scaling.
Actually we do have a feat for POW blocks. They can harm Bowser who is Universal+. Basic scaling bro. No, nothing shows the POW Block isn't strong enough to do so. And if you want to argue "lol the mario cast can't harm him", Mario is shown to harm Bowser several times in the series.
Mario can damage Bowser in Superstar Saga by jumping on him.
Mario can even damage Bowser in the NSMB titles with fireballs. Fireballs are shown to be weaker than his jumps when you look at his fights with the koopalings. Mario not being able to damage Bowser is nothing more than a game mechanic.
Oh and if you want to argue that the POW Block isn't Uni+ because it didn't destroy the space time continuum when Mario hits it, refer to this.
"A character with a certain degree of attack potency does not necessarily need to cause destructive feats on that level, but can cause damage to characters that can withstand such forces. As such it isn't proof of a low attack potency, if a character's attacks only cause a small amount of destruction."
"We are aware that this technically violates the principle of conservation of energy, as it should logically disperse upon impact, but fiction generally tends to ignore this fact, so we overlook it as well."
Getting blown by wind? Again, a plot device to start the game. DK's hand hurting is nothing more than a small comedic moment. Because it then gets contradicted by the fact that he is consistently shown to fight Mario, who is already Universal+ by default. There is a reason why we ignore these "anti-feats". Because they don't hold up to the relevant stuff at hand.
Again, Mario getting launched is a plot device to start the game, and I already covered why Bowser is weaker than Mario. We could literally use this same logic to downgrade Super Sonic because he got punched by Knuckles at the start of Sonic 3, and Knuckles is only Planet Level. And if you really think this makes Super Sonic Planet Level, why does he have multiple feats above that level to begin with? Maybe because it's a plot device to start the game. And any sonic debater will agree with me on this.
did you really just say a congratulations screen supports game mechanics. wtf
after this there seems to be a constant regurgitation of the same terrible arguments, which I already explained why they are wrong.
We want to use the numbers argument for PIS, Game Mechanics, comedy, and other factors that don't debunk Low 2-C? I can play that game too.
This is Sakura
Sakura is shown to be weaker than Naruto in terms of plot.
Sakura beats up Naruto CONSTANTLY in the series.
I guess Sakura is just more powerful than Naruto then...
You're right. It did turn out to be flawed. Very flawed. Because you ignored the main reason why they have the tier in the first place:
They scale to the antagonist of the story.
The antagonist is literally the most relevant part of the game. They are what starts the game. Beating them is the most relevant feat. It is why Goku scales to Jiren. It's why Naruto scales to Toneri. It's why Super Sonic scales to Solaris.
And this is why "hurr he could've broke the rock in origami king" doesn't hold up. Bobby dying is nothing compared to King Olly in terms of plot relevance. Olly is literally the main cause of the game, and Mario would HAVE to beat him, otherwise the most important part of the story doesn't hold up. Mario would HAVE to beat Grand Star and Power Star Bowser. You listed anti-feats that would flat out contradict the most important parts of the story.
And then that's why other showings of the same tier hold up. Mario and co. surviving the destruction of Sammer Kingdom holds up, because it supports the idea that they have Universal+ durability. Bowser surviving the end of Galaxy, that supports Uni+ durability. Bowser destroying dreams that are entire universes? Supports Low 2-C. Olly folding the very fabric of reality and can beat Uni+ Mario, supports Low 2-C. Characters scaling to Mario who is tier 2? They are Universal+ too. Even random battles with Bowser support it because Bowser has uni+ durability to begin with.
And this is why stuff like this should never be argued. ever. You think he wasn't intended to be strong. You think that Mario isn't Low 2-C. These aren't arguments. This is just you refusing to believe the concept of Mario being Universal+. You believe we need to see him destroy entire universes. You believe his jump should affect the past and future. You think Mario's punches need to create space-time rifts within the universe. But in reality, scaling never worked that way.
If you wanna discuss the validity of the Low 2-C feats, sure. But don't try and use these "anti-feats" that could be applied to the entire site.
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So again, another pointless thread arguing PIS and Game Mechanics and anti-feats that simply don't work.
Can we actually get more people to read the current thread going on evaluating more potential Tier 2 feats? This has been a complete distraction and that really requires input.
Can we actually get more people to read the current thread going on evaluating more potential Tier 2 feats? This has been a complete distraction and that really requires input.
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