Re-examining Super Mario cast Tiers

[DaReaperMan]

Can’t believe I argued about a feat that was allocated to the wrong series

though I guess you could argue Wario World is connected to Wario Land, which is connected to Mario Land, but there isn’t really much that specifically connected it to Land other then the Manual saying Wario got treasures from unidentified past adventures

It was a nagging thing I had but never mentioned

Probably too vague to scale Wario's Low 2-C to anyone else outside of his own series

 

[Foxthefox1000]

The Wario and DK shit has always been dumb to me. Literally nothing says they are different characters so having separate keys doesn't make sense.

Do we give Tails and Knuckles separate keys for their solo games? Do we give Luigi a Luigi's Mansion key or Yoshi a Yoshi's Island key despite YI being probably the series with the biggest differences in it now that Wooly and Crafted are a thing?

It's just so stupid.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Unfortunately that thread didn't go through sooooooooo...

 

[Foxthefox1000]

So? Doesn't make it not the dumbest shit.

 

[The_Smashor]

Mario supporters have a habit of trying to have their cake and eat it too.

 

[DragonLord]

The Wario and DK shit has always been dumb to me. Literally nothing says they are different characters so having separate keys doesn't make sense.

Not much really says there same ether, I think at the end of the day, while you can argue that Luigi’s Mansion or Yoshi’s Island has roots in the main Mario brand, it seems Nintendo has no interest in Wario and DK outside there own franchises, hell Mario Vs DK, despite using the Rare design, implies that the DK in the the game is the same one from the Arcade

Wario specifically is extremely inconsistent in his portrayal, if the Profiles are to stay consistent in portrayals and power levels (I mean really they can’t decide if Wario is a threat anymore), I think separating keys makes sense in his case

 

[Foxthefox1000]

You told people not to bring up Sonic and criticized the low blows at another franchise's fanbase.

So stop doing it yourself. That message wasn't needed and only insults some of the people in this thread.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Don't be a hypocrite Smashor.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Blem, even without the Wario Land feat we’ve still got Sammer Kingdom, Bowser surviving the universe’s destruction, Grand Stars, and two other feats about to be accepted on the other thread, so I’m fine with moving the Wario Land feat to its key.

 

[The_Smashor]

Don't be a hypocrite Smashor.

There's a difference between complaining about a franchise and bringing up another one. Am I out of line? Probably. But I'm not a hypocrite.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Not much really says there same ether, I think at the end of the day, while you can argue that Luigi’s Mansion or Yoshi’s Island has roots in the main Mario brand, it seems Nintendo has no interest in Wario and DK outside there own franchises, hell Mario Vs DK, despite using the Rare design, implies that the DK in the the game is the same one from the Arcade

Wario specifically is extremely inconsistent in his portrayal, if the Profiles are to stay consistent in portrayals and power levels (I mean really they can’t decide if Wario is a threat anymore), I think separating keys makes sense in his case

No, I think some people are just extremely nitpicky for no good reason.

"Nothing says they are the same" is such a bad argument. The point of different keys is to explain what's so contradictory that they require such keys. Nothing contradicts Wario and DK in their series being the same. Nothing.

 

[The_Smashor]

Blem, even without the Wario Land feat we’ve still got Sammer Kingdom, Bowser surviving the universe’s destruction, Grand Stars, and two other feats about to be accepted on the other thread, so I’m fine with moving the Wario Land feat to its key.

I still greatly disagree with using an English-only guide for a Japanese game made by Japanese people, the main creator of the character in question specifically not knowing English.

 

[DaReaperMan]

There's a difference between complaining about a franchise and bringing up another one. Am I out of line? Probably. But I'm not a hypocrite.

You are taking low blows when you told someone off from doing it.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

The removal of the Wario Land and DKC keys was rejected. While I also think they’re dumb you’d have to make a separate thread to get them removed.

Also let’s stay on topic yeah?

 

[The_Smashor]

You are taking low blows when you told someone off from doing it.

I told someone not to bring up Sonic the Hedgehog in this Mario thread. There's a difference between a low blow and derailment.

 

[DragonLord]

nitpicky

Man there’s that word again, getting kinda tired of this

The point of different keys is to explain what's so contradictory that they require such keys. Nothing contradicts Wario and DK in their series being different. Nothing.

You mean like how Wario is a successful treasure Hunter with a giant magic mansion, a broke game developer in a run down house, some random schemer trying to cheat sports events with a random purple dude and Mario’s ally in saving Peach, or how Nintendo still can’t decide on what the DK family tree is?, I feel that these character portrayals aren’t exactly as consistent as some think

 

[Chariot190]

I told someone not to bring up Sonic the Hedgehog in this Mario thread. There's a difference between a low blow and derailment.

The reason the other dude was told off wasn't because he was bringing up another verse as comparison, it was because he was taking low blows and inciting shit, even if it's on topic, a low blow and incitement is still a low blow and incitement.
Reaper ain't wrong dude, let's not be hypocritical.

 

[TUHTPeaSkull12]

as far as i remember wario never saved princess peach for good intentions he was always there for a good reason, be it money, her kiss, he was always greedy and someone looking for a treasure that has to do with money, i don't remember any other game having a different personality.

 

[The_Smashor]

Eh, arguing semantics for any longer would be derailing at this point...

 

[The_Smashor]

as far as i remember wario never saved princess peach for good intentions he was always there for a good reason, be it money, her kiss, he was always greedy and someone looking for a treasure that has to do with money, i don't remember any other game.

Wario does not give a rat's ass about romance in most of his games. IIRC he's saved princesses before and not cared about any affection or thanks they showed him unless it was made of gold.

 

[DragonLord]

as far as i remember wario never saved princess peach for good intentions he was always there for a good reason, be it money, her kiss, he was always greedy and someone looking for a treasure that has to do with money, i don't remember any other game having a different personality.

Mario 64 DS to my memory he was just, there, he wouldn’t go through all that for Cake if it was Wario Land Wario

 

[TUHTPeaSkull12]

and that's what I said, he has always been a greedy looking for a reward that is gold, in no other mario game that he has appeared has he had a different personality to the one he has always had.

 

[DragonLord]

and that's what I said, he has always been a greedy looking for a reward that is gold, in no other mario game that he has appeared has he had a different personality to the one he has always had.

And Peach had no Gold for him, besides considering other games Wario has such a deep hate for Mario I’d doubt that would be good enough to work with him

 

[Foxthefox1000]

The topic has already been adamantly detested by a sum of people with no real counters.

This OP is just a conglomeration of every PIS scene and game mechanics arguments made to what? Show the inconsistency of the Mario franchise? We've already known that. What's the next point? Downgrading? The Uni debunks were debunked already and talked about and we are in the process of evaluating some others, and the review one has already been almost unanimously rejected so I fail to see why you're bringing it up.

Even if you wanted a downgrade, to what end are you willing to argue? Using these very same anti-feats that are story related you'd unironically have to support Tier 9 Mario as the consistent tier, but again, the fault in this is that these PIS arguments can be used to downgrade plenty of verses because of a plot relevant anti-feat. Do you know how many verses with characters around 9-A or Tier 8 exist where a small rock blockade forces them to find another way despite being easily able to blast through them or a building crumbling on top of them is seen as dangerous despite a dura feat like that only needing like 9-B durability?

Zelda is a pretty good example of these same arguments being used against a verse. Link NEEDS the gauntlets in OoT and a few other games to lift and destroy large blockades. But he would naturally have the strength to pulverize these stone/rock blockades easily going by lore and powerscaling. Should we now downgrade Link because this is somewhat of a consistent story/plot thing?

The answer is no. You don't do that. It should be common sense. There are so many anti-feats against even Tier 7, the supposedly "most consistent" tier according to others if you use all the arguments you used here. This is literally in support of a mass Tier 9 downgrade using PIS and Game Mechanics.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

And Peach had no Gold for him, besides considering other games Wario has such a deep hate for Mario I’d doubt that would be good enough to work with him

The Toads and I believe the manual still call him greedy and motivated by selfish reasons. I think it's even inferred he wants the Power Stars because they're shiny and give power.

 

[DragonLord]

The Toads and I believe the manual still call him greedy and motivated by selfish reasons. I think it's even inferred he wants the Power Stars because they're shiny and give power.

I’m looking at the Manual and I don’t see anything other then calling Luigi and Wario Party Crashers, though really no matter his goals i don’t think it makes sense he’s working with Mario, the entire point of him treasure hunting in Wario Land is that he wants to be bigger then Mario, Beating Mario goes over his desire to get shiny things

 

[Starsprite53]

Implying that many mario characters doesn't have mutiple roles and works

 

[DragonLord]

Implying that many mario characters doesn't have mutiple roles and works

And Wario can be both Broke and Extremely Rich at the same time?

hell, even in this thread I’ve brought evidence that some of these Roles aren’t considered Legitimate by Miyamoto, he himself says that Dr. Mario is “probably Illegitimate”

 

[Starsprite53]

And Wario can be both Broke and Extremely Rich at the same time?

Sure.

 

[DaReaperMan]

And Wario can be both Broke and Extremely Rich at the same time?

Welcome to fiction.

 

[DragonLord]

Sure.

I’m sorry to say but even on Canon’s that do consider such contradictory things canon, the Wiki can Seperate them for consistency, see basically anything with Comics or old Cartoons, the exact thing Miyamoto compared Mario canon too

 

[Foxthefox1000]

So the only thing worth talking about is what the "consistent' tier is (which is 9 going by these arguments) or what we can do about the inconsistency.

People said a Varies tier wouldn't work but I think there is support for Mario gaining strength over time, but even then that's inconsistent because people would just be like, "well Odyssey the most recent entry shows him getting momentarily dazed from a long fall off a building."

Multiple Keys is absolutely not going to work and different profiles require too much personal interpretation. There's a reason almost any "Mario Timeline" thread or video will have vastly differing opinions and critiques. It just simply doesn't work. Any interpretation on Mario Canon is just that -- an interpretation. It's not fact. Fact is that Nintendo does not care for Mario canon.

People will say Mario Party should be separate for a plethora of reasons, but at the end of the day some Mario Party games still have them being returned back to "the real world" or literally do take place in their world for the later entries. Mario Party 6's manual or whatever seems to be the only time a "Mario Party World" was mentioned and it COULD just be referring to that specific game only or the board game world like the one in the treasure chest in MP3 or the ones in boxes in MP4. There's even specific statements of Mario and Co. leaving "their world" and heading to another land/world in Mario Party 5 and Island Tour. No mentions of a Mario Party World. Hell, the plot of Mario Party 7 has Toadsworth planning a vacation for Mario and friends for helping save the world plenty of times and fighting evil. If this was just related to the MP series the world was only ever in danger in like... Mario Party 2 maybe??? The rest were dream worlds, a misunderstanding with Bowser who didn't even plot world domination, a benevolent Star, a quarrel with the Sun and Moon that weren't evil and didn't threaten the world at all and that's really it. So this plot and a few others wouldn't make sense if it was truly just a different world entirely from the other series.

Paper Mario I'd rather not go into at the moment. Just too much.

And Mario & Luigi is definitely not getting a key. I don't even know why someone brought it up.

 

[DragonLord]

Hell, the plot of Mario Party 7 has Toadsworth planning a vacation for Mario and friends for helping save the world plenty of times and fighting evil.

I feel this point is flawed for similar reasons I find Luigi mention Golf in Paper Mario flawed, in the end Mario is a Hero, he’s known for saving things and fighting evil, just because a game mentions that Mario fought evil in the past doesn’t mean that it’s specifically the ones you see in other games, theoretically, you can take any heroic character and say that they fought evil in the past, that doesn’t in of itself make it canon to other media of said character

I’d also say that even if Mario Party connects to the Mainline games, that doesn’t inherently mean that the Mainline Games connect to Mario Party, plenty of canon’s have Canon’s where they use the primary source material but the primary source material doesn’t use it

And Mario & Luigi is definitely not getting a key. I don't even know why someone brought it up.

In terms of Mario & Luigi, I feel like they just don’t really fit Nintendo’s Mario from feel to art style to character interaction and world, the games are consistent to eachother of course, in fact Mario & Luigi is probably the most continuity filled sub series out of Mario, but when it comes to say, how Luigi is treated in Mainline Games vs M&L, it’s like Night and Day

I wouldn’t be too against it staying on a theoretical Main Canon key though

Multiple Keys is absolutely not going to work and different profiles require too much personal interpretation. There's a reason almost any "Mario Timeline" thread or video will have vastly differing opinions and critiques. It just simply doesn't work. Any interpretation on Mario Canon is just that -- an interpretation. It's not fact. Fact is that Nintendo does not care for Mario canon.

This can be said about making it all count too, something which Even Miyamoto doesn’t seem to agree on calling certain Jobs “illegitimate” to Mario, really the only consistency to Mario stories is the ones that belong to same Series, like I said something like M&L or Paper Mario or Wario Land are consistent to themselves but I don’t entirely jell with how the other games treat the characters

hell, even inside the company you can see this, the Director of Wario Land Shake it called Wario “Cool and Masculine” and not stupid, and not even Evil, other people at Nintendo also choosed Wario for WarioWares icon because he was Extremely Stupid and incompetent

 

[Foxthefox1000]

People call you nitpicky for a reason.

This is all interpretive feelings and personal beliefs you're throwing at us.

"I feel"s and "I think"s instead of hard statement or fact. We don't downgrade a verse based on some interpretation that requires evidence be made for it. That interpretation needs to have grounds and not a truck load of contradictions.

And why can't Wario be both cool and stupid? Masculine and incompetent? You're literally grasping at straws for inconsistencies with that one.

Luigi is the same scrawny coward that gets made fun of across all of the series. Mario is literally a mascot made to play whatever role they want him to serve beyond the traditional "good guy/hero". Wario is still disgusting and gross and greedy and selfish. Finding very small things to criticize about their characterizations contributes nothing.

 

[DragonLord]

People call you nitpicky for a reason.

Then baby I’ll do nitpicking the best I can

This is all interpretive feelings and personal beliefs you're throwing at us.

Mario Canon is Subjective Murray you yourself admit that any Mario canon or timeline will have issues, I don’t think the canon brought up here is flawless, I write out “I think” and “I feel” for the sake of accuracy since I’m not Nintendo (it’s also really just a habit in my speech pattern), but I do give out evidence here, characterization and roles contradictions, interviews with the Devs themselves and a different view on what people seem to take as objective of which I don’t see why my view has any less evidence then the other, I don’t think that you should just try and throw out any arguments I have as “arguments from belief” without explanation of why mine is any different from yours

And why can't Wario be both cool and stupid? Masculine and incompetent? You're literally grasping at straws for inconsistencies with that one.

Because the Views of the two people just inherently contradict, Wario in Wario Land is this fearless strong Treasure Hunter that’ll piledrive his enemies mercilessly, WarioWare Wario is scummy slob GameDev who’s consistently the butt of every joke and can’t even match children, it’s clearly not the same take on the character, maybe closer to the more random cheater Of the Mario Spin offs at best, this Isn’t even going into his role in Mario 64 DS

same scrawny coward that gets made fun of across all of the series

Luigi does get fun off time to time, but not to the extent of M&L, that’s a whole different tier where everyone, even the Heroes just constantly make fun of Luigi it actually got pretty annoying after a while tbh though I’d say Luigi being a Coward is also something that’s not really been consistent, he seems to have no issues with Bowser in something like 3D World

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Luigi is the same scrawny coward that gets made fun of across all of the series.

This video calls that a BS statement

 

[DragonLord]

I don’t think I ever got a Mod answer on this point because there are pages where that’s basically there justification for having a Varies tier, most notably to me Karate Kid

Another update on this, apparently there is a whole verse that just uses Varies, IDW Transformers

Note: Due to the inconsistency of IDW, all characters have a Varies rating on their profiles due to how several writers handle the powers of the Transformers differently. Majority of IDW's top feats are consistently in the Tier 7 to Tier 6 range, and so, they are listed as such.

Wonder how long that’ll stick

 

[The_Smashor]

Don't see the need for a varies there, it would probably should just be a high and low end like everyone else.

 

[liluzivert]

Before I debunk this thread, I just want to bring up something that the OP has ignored.

Plot-Induced Stupidity

Plot-Induced Stupidity, or PIS for short, is a term used to refer to events in a story that contradict a character's normal capabilities for the purpose of the plot. For example, if a generally competent, intelligent villain does something stupid like not killing the hero immediately when he has...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Game Mechanics

Game Mechanics refers to the abilities shown in games (usually video games) that are determined by the rules of the game (examples include hit points, levels, statistics, world map crossing in seconds outside of cinematics, etcetera) and are not necessarily indicative of a character's or...

vsbattles.fandom.com

These are literal rules on the site, and realistically speaking I shouldn't have to explain this.

but fine... since people want a debunk I'll give them one

And as for this statement, Wario gets scaling from other Star Children. However, there is evidence of Wario struggling against non-Star Children.

WarioWare Touched has a blatant scene of Wario struggling against a train.



Sure, outside of vacuum and using this against the 4 accepted Uni feats is dumb, but not only do we have more games coming to contradict those, this is just another game to portray inconsistency of Mario. And since all Spin-offs are still parts of Mario, there is no real reason to neglect this one.

Not to mention Wario blatantly struggles here whereas Black Jewel was fade to white and Kamek only has kind of wrong statement.

WarioWare Gold has Wario struggling against Lulu:



Lulu is not a Star Child and is not implied to have special powers. Same thing with Young Cricket (1:38:05), Wario struggles a lot with those two. Neither have massive feats and the only way this makes sense is if they would scale to Universe+ levels of stats, but that is logical only if Low 2-C is right in the first place. Ware series has not shown any impressive feats, so it fits more that Wario is not at Universal+ levels. Black Jewel is only thing to support Wario directly and that feat has its own issues.

And while this could leave a question: “World is an action game while Ware-games are minigame collection, why should that be given priority?”

Well, frankly it is objectively true that by this point Ware is far more important series. Wario World was one-off game, while Ware spans multiple games, as recent as 2018. If anything, it seems Wario World isn’t the important game for Wario in grand scheme of things and is less of importance for his history.

And even if the argument is “these funny games are not Mario’s true identity, RPGs and Platformers are” that won’t work because plenty of Mario games use a lot of humor, as well as RPGs and Platformers themselves are not entirely same either. A lot of concepts are ignored from RPGs in Platformers as well.

So far Wario has 1 Low 2-C feat against 2 contradictions, and personally contradictions are clear as day while the supporting feat is vague and relies on reading separate material to guarantee it.

WarioWare is a comedic series about Wario developing games to make money. Why did you use this to debunk actual adventure titles? Literally in the same video you sent, Wario is seen eating a cake, getting cavities, and getting launched into the dentist office. If you REALLY want to apply actual power scaling logic to this game, Wario getting launched into space by a train is literally impossible. He gets launched into space team rocket style by a train. He is in front of it and somehow gets launched into the air? And you want to make this an anti feat? Wario struggling with a little kid somehow debunks his other feats when the entire game is comedic and not serious once so ever?

And even if the argument is “these funny games are not Mario’s true identity, RPGs and Platformers are” that won’t work because plenty of Mario games use a lot of humor, as well as RPGs and Platformers themselves are not entirely same either. A lot of concepts are ignored from RPGs in Platformers as well.

And this is a garbage comparison. These games (as well as others with a legitimate plot) have actual stakes at hand, and real antagonists that cause the adventure to start before hand. Comedic moments in these games are not relevant to the fact that they have to fight against the trials ahead. And I will get into this concept more later on.

“Superlava”.



Sorry, I hope that little “black humor” didn’t hurt too much, but the point is clear. NSMB on DS showcased Bowser being severely hurt from lava, enough to be turned into a skeleton. Dry Bowser is the skeleton form of Bowser being reanimated by magic. It is even referenced in later scenario.



Bowser being dead and Jr. having resurrect him is a cutscene in the game. NSMB for DS treats this as something that truly happened in the scenario.

Other games with his appearance have also shown this. Mario Party 10 has the cast use cannonballs to shoot him into lava, where he emerges in his skeleton form.



Even if this isn’t actually a true “reanimated corpse” it seems sometimes lava hurts Bowser enough to peel off his skin. This doesn’t add-up for universal+ survivability.

Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga has Bowser fall a simple fall from atmosphere after falling off. This from a cutscene as well.

https://youtu.be/SLpL9bDId50?t=14217

This is enough to get Bowser be unconscious for extended period of time.

Similarly Partners in Time has Bowser fall and eventually end up unconscious from a fall

https://youtu.be/e9xlld_81vo?t=299

Now to be fair, this is with Time Portals, so the event arguably can be way higher in AP, but almost no high-end should be enough to hurt Low 2-C from a fall. And again, this is a story event.

Now, I suppose argument can be made, that being knocked unconscious doesn’t disprove durability. Maybe to a degree, but all these events show no direct scaling to Low 2-C levels of power. And so far, contradict greatly with Black Jewel & Kamek statements at least. And personally, how high do you need to fall to make Low 2-C character unconscious?

We call this.. plot induced stupidity my friend. Bowser "dying" from Lava is just a reference to the old Mario games and doesn't contradict his actual scaling. Bowser being unconscious from a fall is a plot device. But ok, say this is still "legitamate".

This is Goku.

Goku is Universal during the Resurrection F Saga.

Goku gets shot by a bullet.

Is Goku not Universal anymore because he got shot? Or is it a plot device?


And the flaws in your reasoning doesn't stop there. No. It gets even worse. Bowser's lower end feats literally contradict what you're saying.

Bowser can swim in a hot tub of acid

Bowser can tank lava after losing a Grand Star, and still be alive during the next cutscene.

There's probably even more lower end feats that I'm missing, but regardless you are literally arguing for ******* Wall Level, yet Bowser has shown much higher feats ignoring scaling.

In SM3D World, we also see another peculiar case. Bowser in his Cat form showed to not being able to be hurt by Mario & Co., but he is defeated by POW Block.

https://youtu.be/cPCiuvRzBlg?t=392

Sure, this is bit related to gameplay, but the game has cinematic showing Bowser being defeated, matches that of the POW Block gameplay. So, arguing that this is pure gameplay doesn’t work.

This site has not ranked POW Blocks, but I haven’t seen Universal+ related feats for it. This site also uses several one-off items from Super Paper Mario and has given them a profile. Surely, a standard Mario series related item has bigger priority than one-offs? And an actual cinematic event is supporting this as well. Therefore, we have an item that has not been found a feat strong enough to hurt Low 2-C character, severely causes enough force to stop him.

Actually we do have a feat for POW blocks. They can harm Bowser who is Universal+. Basic scaling bro. No, nothing shows the POW Block isn't strong enough to do so. And if you want to argue "lol the mario cast can't harm him", Mario is shown to harm Bowser several times in the series.

Mario can damage Bowser in Superstar Saga by jumping on him.

Mario can even damage Bowser in the NSMB titles with fireballs. Fireballs are shown to be weaker than his jumps when you look at his fights with the koopalings. Mario not being able to damage Bowser is nothing more than a game mechanic.

Oh and if you want to argue that the POW Block isn't Uni+ because it didn't destroy the space time continuum when Mario hits it, refer to this.

"A character with a certain degree of attack potency does not necessarily need to cause destructive feats on that level, but can cause damage to characters that can withstand such forces. As such it isn't proof of a low attack potency, if a character's attacks only cause a small amount of destruction."

"We are aware that this technically violates the principle of conservation of energy, as it should logically disperse upon impact, but fiction generally tends to ignore this fact, so we overlook it as well."

Since the idea of deleting DK as a verse happened, as it’s included in whole Super Mario collective, this means those games are important sources too. The game Tropical Freeze from 2014 also shows something that isn’t exactly right.

https://youtu.be/7oGQioVTjo0?t=101

Lord Fredrik used his special powered horn and blew away DK Gang quite easily. True, DK and gang survived it, which itself is a good durability feat, but why would this feat even affect Low 2-C leveled character? Even if this attack was highballed to Planet level, it’s such a fraction of that power.

And in hindsight, even DKC Returns might have evidence for contradiction. The Moon feat.

https://youtu.be/_McXP06-oqU?t=651

No, doing lower power feat doesn’t invalid other higher power feats, of course that wouldn’t. It just happens there is a detail that is forgotten, I didn’t realize it either. It actually requires effort from DK.

His hand is swollen red, and he even blows on it after the punch (11:25). It’s silly, but its factual that there is no way someone who is Universal+ would be affected by such a low feat. Moon’s size is weird, and it has been called Tier 6 feat, but let’s just make it Planet level. The gap between Planet and Universal is roughly 58 zeroes in joules even when lowballed. That is:

10 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000

times the difference. The gap is bigger than between housefly and nuclear weapons. Bigger than a housefly and solar system busting.

And that is without realizing Low 2-C is already so huge, DK should transcend this limitation. And why would DK need to charge his punch? If he is so above that feat, why did all of these happen?

And yet how come a cutscene shows even tiny bit of struggle for DK? Perhaps Low 2-C isn’t the consistent level for Mario. Certainly not going by showings so far.

Getting blown by wind? Again, a plot device to start the game. DK's hand hurting is nothing more than a small comedic moment. Because it then gets contradicted by the fact that he is consistently shown to fight Mario, who is already Universal+ by default. There is a reason why we ignore these "anti-feats". Because they don't hold up to the relevant stuff at hand.

Mario related things

Galaxy 1 intro shows Mario being hurt by Kamek:

https://youtu.be/baiIGqVeaI4?t=297

Now, as Galaxy 1 has support for Low 2-C, this might seem odd. Why does this support contradiction? Because some of the earlier games supposedly support Low 2-C. This is yet another contradiction, as while Kamek is a threat, he isn’t truly accepted as Low 2-C. And since the later feat might be questionable, the scale might balance to contradiction side in against of Low 2-C.

But let’s just keep this as a footnote. Let’s keep Galaxy 1 as true support for Low 2-C. Let’s see will this matter in the end.

Super Mario Odyssey also features another oddity of feat itself being a decent durability feat, but actually not making sense for Low 2-C.

https://youtu.be/Utvj76F07C8?t=33

Bowser sends Mario flying off with a feat, that is not even Planetary. Sure, surviving a launch from sending a person across the country is good. But it’s not Low 2-C good. Technically, if Bowser was true Low 2-C, this might would’ve supported it. But going through prior games, Low 2-C Bowser isn’t the most consistent tier for him. And with that, Mario being hurt from this feat further doesn’t support Low 2-C Mario cast.

Bowser was also defeated by using his own hat against him.

https://youtu.be/AdWppEO_mtw?t=2657

Going by logic with POW Block, this doesn’t support Low 2-C much either. Now to be fair, this is gameplay related, so we won’t look at this fully at the end. But again, this would support lower end of feats, rather than Low 2-C feats, if this was being looked at.

Again, Mario getting launched is a plot device to start the game, and I already covered why Bowser is weaker than Mario. We could literally use this same logic to downgrade Super Sonic because he got punched by Knuckles at the start of Sonic 3, and Knuckles is only Planet Level. And if you really think this makes Super Sonic Planet Level, why does he have multiple feats above that level to begin with? Maybe because it's a plot device to start the game. And any sonic debater will agree with me on this.

I’ve placed some Universal+ contradicting feats here. While they should have cutscenes to prove valid contradiction, these are bit influenced by gameplay. For the case of not being potentially biased with debunking, I’ve placed some here.

Mario vs. Donkey Kong Minis series showcases oddity.

In the GBA games, while some battles do have Mario physically throw objects at DK, thus allowing scaling, there are several battles where far weaker things hurt DK. Things such as falling fruit (1:32) and Bob-ombs (5:37)

https://youtu.be/CCXnZBU6dPg?t=92

While borderline gameplay, many battles still have Congratulations screens portraying the battle fought, thus portraying some precedence on battles being decent representation of battles fought.

did you really just say a congratulations screen supports game mechanics. wtf

after this there seems to be a constant regurgitation of the same terrible arguments, which I already explained why they are wrong.

Quite frankly, it seems a lot of contradictions are blatant, while the support for Low 2-C is either text based (which itself isn’t an issue) or based on odd outside source. In fact, I purposely added a lot of support for Low 2-C that are frankly just bad. Kamek statement in YIDS, MP5, 3D World, Galaxy 2, TTYD and PMOK are in fact really bad. So, the real support amount is 4.

4 Low 2-C feats in games vs 17 contradicting games

And that is minuscule compared to contradictions, less than 25% comparatively.

Really, large majority of contradictions are visual evidence, not even gameplay as its mostly cutscenes and even how the series is portrayed is significantly favoring non-Universal+ feats. And frankly, a lot of evidence for universal+ is pocket dimensions that don’t relate to stories, or out of game material that’s not even that official, meanwhile most contradictions are blatant, ignoring gameplay.

We want to use the numbers argument for PIS, Game Mechanics, comedy, and other factors that don't debunk Low 2-C? I can play that game too.

This is Sakura

Sakura is shown to be weaker than Naruto in terms of plot.

Sakura beats up Naruto CONSTANTLY in the series.

I guess Sakura is just more powerful than Naruto then...

Unless the evidence I posted turn out to be flawed, which you can prove because I might have missed something, it seems there are more evidence of clearly not universal feats causing significant effect on most of Mario cast rather than main cast being flat-out Low 2-C. Some of the Tier 2 Mario related things can remain, but trying to keep Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, Wario, Peach, Bowser & DK as Low 2-C, as well as those who get their tiers from scaling to these Star Children, seems far less likely.

Unless Mario cast gets significantly more explained explanation on Low 2-C, it would be best to not guarantee it as much, which could lead to use of forms like “At least” for the clearer evidence and “At most” or “Possibly” for the less vague ones. Of course, we could even remove Low 2-C entirely, if there aren’t proper explanation on Mario casts’ significant number of universal feat contradiction.

You're right. It did turn out to be flawed. Very flawed. Because you ignored the main reason why they have the tier in the first place:

They scale to the antagonist of the story.


The antagonist is literally the most relevant part of the game. They are what starts the game. Beating them is the most relevant feat. It is why Goku scales to Jiren. It's why Naruto scales to Toneri. It's why Super Sonic scales to Solaris.

And while we can go PIS PIS PIS on many of these, its honestly too much. If Mario could blowup the rock in Origami King, he would’ve. Its not even that much of a joke. Its literally important moment in game for Bobby to embark on a quest to do a very important thing and it’s not played for laughs. If you call that a PIS, you are literally calling very important scenario PIS. Its literally not “oops I-a forgot I can easily the stone, Mamma mia”. It’s a serious scene of Mario needing help on moving a rock. We could easily call all of Uni feats PIS too. We use a website and 3rd party writer to make the universe feats more legit. Hell, a real PIS is the gang surviving Sammer Kingdom.

And this is why "hurr he could've broke the rock in origami king" doesn't hold up. Bobby dying is nothing compared to King Olly in terms of plot relevance. Olly is literally the main cause of the game, and Mario would HAVE to beat him, otherwise the most important part of the story doesn't hold up. Mario would HAVE to beat Grand Star and Power Star Bowser. You listed anti-feats that would flat out contradict the most important parts of the story.

And then that's why other showings of the same tier hold up. Mario and co. surviving the destruction of Sammer Kingdom holds up, because it supports the idea that they have Universal+ durability. Bowser surviving the end of Galaxy, that supports Uni+ durability. Bowser destroying dreams that are entire universes? Supports Low 2-C. Olly folding the very fabric of reality and can beat Uni+ Mario, supports Low 2-C. Characters scaling to Mario who is tier 2? They are Universal+ too. Even random battles with Bowser support it because Bowser has uni+ durability to begin with.

Problem for me is that I highly doubt it was intended for Mario to be this strong and that this method needlessly buffs characters, not just Mario.

And this is why stuff like this should never be argued. ever. You think he wasn't intended to be strong. You think that Mario isn't Low 2-C. These aren't arguments. This is just you refusing to believe the concept of Mario being Universal+. You believe we need to see him destroy entire universes. You believe his jump should affect the past and future. You think Mario's punches need to create space-time rifts within the universe. But in reality, scaling never worked that way.

If you wanna discuss the validity of the Low 2-C feats, sure. But don't try and use these "anti-feats" that could be applied to the entire site.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

So again, another pointless thread arguing PIS and Game Mechanics and anti-feats that simply don't work.

Can we actually get more people to read the current thread going on evaluating more potential Tier 2 feats? This has been a complete distraction and that really requires input.