Re-examining Super Mario cast Tiers

[Starsprite53]

This thread is filled with arguments from belief smh

 

[DragonLord]

This is a Mario thread stop bringing up Sonic the ******* Hedgehog. He has no meaning here other then a derailing mess. Stop immediately.​

basically just feels like that’s the most common comparison because it’s a low blow to get a reaction of, certain people

 

[DaReaperMan]

basically just feels like that’s the most common comparison because it’s a low blow to get a reaction of, certain people

And nobody cares about sonic on a ******* Mario CRT, we don't mention Superman on Marvel CRTs do we?

 

[liluzivert]

I mean, I feel like the main writer of the game isn’t really “some writer” but if you want the most recent statement that would be Iizuka in Sonic Boom 2012

This is probably the funniest interview he’s had, you can tell he’s kinda just stumped

what does "everyone had amnesia" mean? He straight up says Blaze is from an alternate dimension which contradicts every notion of her being in 06. If you literally have to make up something so that Blaze's story works then it is a plothole.

Either:

-The Blaze from 06 isn't the same Blaze

or:

-Plotholes are irrelevant to character scaling, and it applies to Mario too.

This is a Mario thread stop bringing up Sonic the ******* Hedgehog. He has no meaning here other then a derailing mess. Stop immediately.​

Typing in caps to "be the hero" does not help the discussion at all. I don't care if Sonic is Sonic, he is used as a comparison in this argument to point out faulty logic within the other side. You can use comparisons. You typing in caps contributes nothing to this debate.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Typing in caps to "be the hero" does not help the discussion at all. I don't care if Sonic is Sonic, he is used as a comparison in this argument to point out faulty logic within the other side. You can use comparisons. You typing in caps contributes nothing to this debate.

Does that look like caps to you? THIS IS CAPS. This is bold.

This is heading 1.​

It was referring to everyone talking about Sonic, not just you.

 

[liluzivert]

Does that look like caps to you? THIS IS CAPS. This is bold.

This is heading 1.​

It was referring to everyone talking about Sonic, not just you.

I don't care about which text setting you used, I am just saying that we can bring up other verses to point out flaws in logic. You complaining about it does nothing to help the conversation.

 

[DragonLord]

Although really, outside of subjective arguments on canon on a series that objectively has none I am wondering about things in the OP like the debunk arguments from other threads that weren’t discussed, it would be good to know of them

 

[DaReaperMan]

I don't care about which text setting you used, I am just saying that we can bring up other verses to point out flaws in logic. You complaining about it does nothing to help the conversation.

And you began derailing with it. There is a line between bringing up flaws in logic and straight up derailing the thread. Learn it.

 

[Chariot190]

Bring up Sonic again Liluzivert, and you'll be getting a warning for inciting flame wars, you've gone on record pointing out how you know this is a thing, is contentious, and are actively continuing despite being asked like 4 times to drop that shit.
It's no longer just "a comparison", it's ******* annoying is what it is now.

 

[liluzivert]

And you began derailing with it. There is a line between bringing up flaws in logic and straight up derailing the thread. Learn it.

It's not a derail if it's relevant to the point in hand. Stuff like this is why the site has immense double standards already, because people aren't allowed to point out contradictions within the site from other verses. And I'm not saying that Sonic has a double standard for this rule, because he does not in truth. I am saying, that this argument about "plotholes contradict scaling" does not hold up. And I used Sonic as an example. I could bring up a plethora of other verses that have plotholes, not just Sonic.

Bring up Sonic again Liluzivert, and you'll be getting a warning for inciting flame wars, you've gone on record pointing out how you know this is a thing, is contentious, and are actively continuing despite being asked like 4 times to drop that shit.
It's no longer just "a comparison", it's ******* annoying is what it is now.

So because I bring up Sonic as an example as to why an argument is faulty, it's flame wars? What has this site come to? I'm not allowed to use other verses as a comparison anymore because it's "toxic" or "not relevant"? Fine then, I'm done with this thread.

 

[DragonLord]

Not sure about the reason behind fantasia's seperate profile in the first place

While Fantasia is an iconic part of Mickey, it’s not exactly the main Mickey, it’s a different version with a different role and personality and just general brand etc, the Main Mickey is a Happy go lucky, if a bit of jerk sometimes working Mouse with his girlfriend usually working the every man job, while Fantasia is well, a Sorceress Apprentice, even media like Epic Mickey that directly reference Fantasia don’t really have the two versions interact (Mickey doesn’t even seem to know who Yen Sid is despite the same short being shown in the intro)

I suppose technically, it doesn’t contradict anything and there are plenty of nods to it, but in practice, it’s intended to be a different version of the Character, much like the reason I brought before to consider Space Jam Bugs Bunny different

least that’s how I see it

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Okay. Let's talk about Black Jewel and those other supposed debunks that never got a proper response.

There us a thread being made for scaling in the future. I would put this conversation about scaling and continuity on hold until then when it's relevant. Currently the conversation has gone nowhere and we still have lots to discuss.

 

[Chariot190]

So because I bring up Sonic as an example as to why an argument is faulty, it's flame wars? What has this site come to? I'm not allowed to use other verses as a comparison anymore because it's "toxic" or "not relevant"? Fine then, I'm done with this thread.

No, you can use verses as other examples, that's clearly not what's happening here though, especially given how like, half of these "comparisons" have been worded, they're thinly veiled low blows. And it's not like that hasn't been stated in this very thread, verses besides Sonic exist ya know.

 

[DragonLord]

No, you can use verses as other examples, that's clearly not what's happening here though, especially given how like, half of these "comparisons" have been worded, they're thinly veiled low blows. And it's not like that hasn't been stated in this very thread, verses besides Sonic exist ya know.

If I had to be honest, Constant flame wars and comparisons like this always make Mario threads kinda draining in general, it’s just a plumber guys

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Actually, reading up on it. The Black Jewel debunk WAS talked about. It was used as an argument against the Lumas getting Low 2-C.

But we accept it because those canonically weak things that can barely perform 8-C feats individually have context supporting a boost when grouped up together. There aren't any contradictions in the Black Jewel feat that make it not Tier 2 and there's no good evidence why it isn't a feat for Wario. The argument used there is kind of weak and can be refuted by simply reading the Spriteling justifications unless I'm missing something.

 

[The_Smashor]

If I had to be honest, Constant flame wars and comparisons like this always make Mario threads kinda draining in general, it’s just a plumber guys

Mario versus threads too, not just CRTs. I remember when someone said that Bowser leads with turning people into bricks in character.

Edit: I should also note several Mario supporters agreed with that specific point. There's a reason my default assumption with a Mario supporter is "They're bullshitting"

 

[Foxthefox1000]

The fun part about being so inconsistent as pointed out in this thread is that Bowser has led with a lot of different things. In character he can be argued to do a multitude of things

 

[The_Smashor]

The fun part about being so inconsistent as pointed out in this thread is that Bowser has led with a lot of different things. In character he can ve argued to do a multitude of things

People argued he ALWAYS leads with brick transmutation, tho.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Anyways, behaviors and thing in other CRTs are irrelevant.

All the "debunks" in the OP have already been refuted in other threads. Black Jewel should be fine and so should the Void. Yes, the Void is EE but it's also physical destruction. Fairly sure that was said plenty in the game itself.

Power Stars and Grand Stars were literally talked to death in the last CRT. I don't want to go over it all again but there were more people agreeing and considering the refutations the pro side made more legitimate.

Currently we are in the process of evaluating the 3 new feats. I would suggest just heading to that thread to discuss those because bringing them up here splits attention and it's entirely unnecessary.

 

[TUHTPeaSkull12]

I agree, if you have a problem about something a complaint or something like that, please visit the threads where it is discussed, especially if you plan to create new threads refuting things, so at least you can get an idea of things that were already talked about, we already have a CRT going on about exploits and such.

 

[NotAMarioFan(lol)]

I would agree with a Mario key split, it's ambitious and likely very controversial but it seems like a good way to handle it for me.

Why would he be split? Controversial about what?

 

[DragonLord]

I feel in the End, Miyamoto is right, Mario is a old cartoon/comic character, sometimes he owns an entire kingdom, sometimes he has a dinky little house with Luigi, sometimes Luigi has an entire mansion, sometimes he lives with Mario in that dinky house, sometimes Bowser is ruling the Galaxy with a iron fist, other times he’s eating donuts peacefully with Mario and Friends, sometimes Wario is a ultra rich treasure Hunter, sometimes he’s a broke scummy Game Developer, some games like Mario Galaxy 2 pretty much just act like the original doesn’t exist really, sometimes the Moon is smaller then an island, sometimes it’s about as big as our moon

Are these “contradictions” perhaps not, people could (and have) make any amount of explanations for these sudden changes but I think the truth is, Nintendo doesn’t think about it, and the same goes about for any cartoon character

for example, right now Bugs Bunny is going through major changes, one of the profiles being “Space Jam”, is there technically anything that contradicts any other of the cartoons in space jam?, probably not, and there’s some nods here and there but the real reason it’s Seperate is that it’s just, different, Bugs acts differently, the brand is different, the people are different and the power levels are different (Road Runner would’ve cleared that movie hard tbh), and I feel the same can be said for Mario, specially since one of these canon’s is directly a alternate universe inside a book

that’s my honest feeling on Mario Canon, I personally would like it to be connected, but Nintendo just, doesn’t have interest in that idea

To add into this, Verses have had canon splits even if there all canon in the first place, from memory DC is currently having there whole Cosmology split between writers because the Wiki has felt that’s the only way to make such scalling and continuity consistent, even if there all technically “canon”

 

[QuasiYuri]

You claim that, they it's literally what is being used on the profile. Because they're literally calling up previous events and remembering them.

And I'm saying what's currently being used doesn't work.
Under our current idea of canon, you would need the mainline game to be the one proving the connection.

Although as explained by others it would be more like Bugs Bunny or comics stuff.

 

[liluzivert]

This is probably gonna be the last thing I type here, but if actual new arguments can't be made about how the power scaling is out of wack, then this really needs to be closed. And there needs to be some sort of discussion rule about this. I think most can agree that the reddit arguments are faulty and that they ignore basic power scaling rules just to satisfy their beliefs. The fact that people also want to say that Mario games need to have separate keys for just the differences in genres and stories is also a belief argument, and could literally be applied to any other franchise to begin with. Just because Mario is a cartoony franchise with wacky concepts doesn't mean it's inconsistent enough to warrant different keys. It's been well established that Mario is the same in every game. Gameplay and story differences are never gonna change that fact.

 

[DragonLord]

I mean, I don’t really feel like the OP has been acknowledged enough at all really

 

[Starsprite53]

Game mechanics and PIS aren't arguments really

 

[DragonLord]

Game mechanics and PIS aren't arguments really

I don’t really feel all of them are that, But ether way when does it start becoming PIS?, what makes these PIS but Mario beating Grand Star Bowser not?, what makes a game mechanic or not

 

[Starsprite53]

"Wario struggles with a girl"
Yup yup, let's just downgrade wario to tier 9 ignoring all of the higher feats he has done casually in many other games

But ether way when does it start becoming PIS?, what makes these PIS but Mario beating Grand Star Bowser not?, what makes a game mechanic or not

Nitpicking moment

 

[DragonLord]

Nitpicking moment

So basically no answer?, alright

 

[Starsprite53]

So basically no answer?, alright

So basically no good question that doesn't ignore basic context? Alright

 

[DragonLord]

So basically no good question that doesn't ignore basic context? Alright

Your the one pointing out one part from a 800 word post and ignoring a simple question

 

[Starsprite53]

Your the one pointing out one part from a 800 word post and ignoring a simple question

Yeah that one point which got repeated in different ways, I don't like the idea of each game must have universal+ feats or arguments that ignore basic powerscaling or rather debunked arguments

 

[DragonLord]

I don't like the idea of each game must have universal+ feats

the OP itself talks about this

 

[Starsprite53]

Sorry i cannot take "he is low 2-C then his punches/movements should always destroy the universe" seriously.
This is denial and pure double standards, why aren't you annoyed at other verses's many anti-feats and other shit but just mario? Simple, bias
I can name more than half characters in this site that didn't effect their tier range by punching and they're still that tier, ignoring the basics of power scaling (his argument is flawed but whatever)

We ignored the debunks

Rebunking is the equivalent of ignoring i see, alright

 

[TMaakkonen]

Well, it’s a bit late reply but right.

Yeah, a lot of my arguments were too much gameplay oriented. We can disregard most of them. Technically though pure cutscenes should be included, so arguably Wario’s train is blatant and DK needing effort to Moon punch and technically Bowser being dead in NSMB is too heavily relied on story. That is already 3 feats to match 3 accepted feats.

Now, this wasn’t meant for “lol Tier 9”, rather to point out inconsistencies and possibly figure out what tier is most common.

And while we can go PIS PIS PIS on many of these, its honestly too much. If Mario could blowup the rock in Origami King, he would’ve. Its not even that much of a joke. Its literally important moment in game for Bobby to embark on a quest to do a very important thing and it’s not played for laughs. If you call that a PIS, you are literally calling very important scenario PIS. Its literally not “oops I-a forgot I can easily the stone, Mamma mia”. It’s a serious scene of Mario needing help on moving a rock. We could easily call all of Uni feats PIS too. We use a website and 3rd party writer to make the universe feats more legit. Hell, a real PIS is the gang surviving Sammer Kingdom.

On the actor thing, does this Wiki tell if character is fictional within a verse? If we do keep that actor thing as a source, then we kinda should tell that Marioverse is technically actors.

As for the keys, I do think at least for sports & misc it’d work. After all, Power Tennis had that weirder anti-feat and separating that would actually help Uni arguments. It also works on the fact that everyone is seemingly on same level of power and helps separating that even if Mario cast are actors, then in sports game they show much weaker powers.

Party might be good to be separate too? Mario & Luigi though, while they have different feel thanks for being done by different developer, do not actually have major problems with stories really.

Paper Mario. Oh, I know why you don’t want to separate this. If we do, it splits Uni arguments and weakens them. Either way, Paper Jam shows them literally being different people. So instead that specific version of Mario gets his solo page.

I didn’t get it at first, but I did get it while back. Paper Mario is just Mario in different artstyle. That’s not different. But he did become later. In fact, that canon interview is from 2012. Its arguably outdated now that Paper Jam contradicts it. Need we mention another interview has Miyamoto say he is mother of Bowser Jr. Clearly, they aren’t that serious about Mario’s lore. Instead, we cherry pick interviews to create a Mario that doesn’t exist.

And like, ofc Paper “Mario” is similar to “Mario” lol. He wouldn’t be Mario if he was massively different. Instead by current logic we could have Paper Mario meet Paper Mario from Paper Jam. Yet Paper Jam already made it a point that Paper is different from normal. Just like comics have different versions of very similar looking Spider-Man, they aren’t the same thing. And if the problem is that they still scale, then just separate them and have them still scale.

And yeah, again DK connection is a mess. What’s the current stance on what DK is to Mario? What is Cranky? And what is up with weird baby DK in YI DS.

And frankly the fact that we had ANOTHER “waaah sonic” post just paints me the image that Mario is given way too much leisure here. If the issue is other verses, go nerf then. Go ahead. If culling Mario requires more verses getting weaker, then as long as it’s based-on sound logic, its fine. What is this weird gatekeeping that Mario HAS to be uni because Solaris feat is allowed for Sonic? And hey, Sonic 06 has Prima Guide saying Solaris is universe busting, so if Mario’s Prima Guide is fine, then Solaris is fine too.

And while it probably should be in other thread, that TTYD Review being used unironically as evidence is bad. Like, how can a review be a source?

Yeah… I wanted to make a big post to show a lot of information but forgot that this makes people skip the text. I feel like some questions have been asked that I mentioned in the OP.

 

[TMaakkonen]

Also literally I talk about not wanting to not need a universe feat for every game.

Did anyone here read the OP?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Well, it’s a bit late reply but right.

Yeah, a lot of my arguments were too much gameplay oriented. We can disregard most of them. Technically though pure cutscenes should be included, so arguably Wario’s train is blatant and DK needing effort to Moon punch and technically Bowser being dead in NSMB is too heavily relied on story. That is already 3 feats to match 3 accepted feats.

You realize first key Wario is probably going solid Low 2-C scaling to the black jewel right? And nobody scales to that key of Wario outside of those in his own series?

I'm even going to quote the Donkey Kong page for you.

"Tier: 6-B | At least 4-A, likely Low 2-C"

"Attack Potency: Country level | At least Multi-Solar System level, likely Universe level+ (Physically superior to Mario and fought him several times)"

"Key: Donkey Kong Series | Mario Bros"​

TLDR: Stop using Wario or DK as arguments.

 

[DragonLord]

And nobody scales to that key of Wario outside of those in his own series?

Doesn’t that mean that the Black Jewel Feat would be removed from all Mario profiles?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Doesn’t that mean that the Black Jewel Feat would be removed from all Mario profiles?

Yeah, probably. Its a Low 2-C feat but it happens in Wario Land, which Wario has a key specifically for

 

[DragonLord]

Yeah, probably. Its a Low 2-C feat but it happens in Wario Land, which Wario has a key specifically for

Can’t believe I argued about a feat that was allocated to the wrong series

though I guess you could argue Wario World is connected to Wario Land, which is connected to Mario Land, but there isn’t really much that specifically connected it to Land other then the Manual saying Wario got treasures from unidentified past adventures