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Re-examining Super Mario cast Tiers

DatOneWeeb said:
Don't know what else to tell you if it's a confirmed prequel from the devs. DK and Yoshi's Island are in-fact connected to the main series. Even the DK series has shown the Mushroom Kingdom.
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And this means the story directly contradicts itself. How is it possible Mario could have been an adult when Donkey Kong's father was a young child, and also have been a baby at the same time as Donkey Kong?
 
EliminatorVenom said:
I don't think splitting works, the games are very much "canon" to each other. Sometimes loosely, but they are canon. It isn't the canonicity that needs to be contested, it is the way both scaling and power levels seem to change wildly over the games.

Like, I'm not a Mario specialist at all, I've played since I was a kid but only a few games and never paying much attention. However, the things Mario & co. are shown to get wounded by/tank with no harm are all over the place, at times treating even similar circumstances differently. I wish I could give good examples, but if I did so I'd be unfair as I haven't played enough to make good justifications. I could say how the relationship of Mario and casual enemies is VERY weird, as things like goombas can consistently (Arguably not greatly) wound Mario & Co. with their efforts, but Mario often keeps up with beings that make goombas become completely irrelevant. There is much more than that, and I could grab things that would be anti-feats, but it is just to illustrate my point that there are far too many "anti-feats" for any specific rating we put Mario on;

This also changes depending on how much we value cutscenes/non-gameplay stuff over the gameplay.
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Isn't that the case for pretty much every big video game character out there???
 
The_Smashor said:
And this means the story directly contradicts itself. How is it possible Mario could have been an adult when Donkey Kong's father was a young child, and also have been a baby at the same time as Donkey Kong?
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No idea, but it's not something I have to deal with if the owners of the series are going to go ahead and claim that yes, both of these games are connected.
 
Contradicting Story = Contradicting everything.
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Literally not how it works, that could be the case for like a dozen different reasons, from a basic plothole, retcon, forgetting, to just not giving a shit.
Could you ******* imagine if we outright discarded entire games, manga arcs, chapters and more if so much as a plot hole showed up? And plotholes that just end up being simple retcons? Like my dude, we could do shit like discard the whole of Phantom Blood or like the Buu Saga if the existence of story contradictions meant the whole thing is moot.
 
Chariot190 said:
Literally not how it works, that could be the case for like a dozen different reasons, from a basic plothole, retcon, forgetting, to just not giving a shit.
Could you ******* imagine if we outright discarded entire games, manga arcs, chapters and more if so much as a plot hole showed up? And plotholes that just end up being simple retcons? Like my dude, we could do shit like discard the whole of Phantom Blood or like the Buu Saga if the existence of story contradictions meant the whole thing is moot.
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I 99999999999999999999% agree
 
It seems I've been leaning on this too much.

What I mean is that contradicting story elements supports Mario being in general inconsistent, something also supported by Miyamoto's statement comparing the series to Popeye.
 
Anyway guys, i think smashor is right. We should remove both Sonic's Solaris and Time Eater feats, because the ending of 06 said the events of that game didn't happen, and then Generations brought it back.

So CLEARLY we cannot use those two games, because they contradict everything
 
liluzivert said:
Anyway guys, i think smashor is right. We should remove both Sonic's Solaris and Time Eater feats, because the ending of 06 said the events of that game didn't happen, and then Generations brought it back.

So CLEARLY we cannot use those two games, because they contradict everything
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I'm using it as a supporting argument, not the main one. Follow the conversation.
 
Mario is inconsistent as all ****, sure. But the existence of a story contradiction in one game doesn't mean the whole game gets tossed into the trash because of like a few dozen different reasons as to why that story contradiction could possibly have happened, especially in the case of Yoshi, because those games are actually explicitly canon.
liluzivert said:
Anyway guys, i think smashor is right. We should remove both Sonic's Solaris and Time Eater feats, because the ending of 06 said the events of that game didn't happen, and then Generations brought it back.
Click to expand...

Could we like, stop with this late 90s bullshit, I've lived through it once, I'd like to not live through it again, if we could not pull this Mario Vs. Sonic bullshit in 2021, that'd be fantastic.
Sonic is Sonic, he doesn't matter here, and Mario is Mario, he doesn't matter in Sonic CRT's, stop being petty.
 
The_Smashor said:
What I mean is that contradicting story elements supports Mario being in general inconsistent, something also supported by Miyamoto's statement comparing the series to Popeye.
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He was referring to how he views his characters like actors, like how one actor be have more than one role. For Mario's case, he can be a doctor or a racer, but it's still Mario in the end. He also references DC/Marvel's different universe stuff of having different versions, but for Mario's case, he feels like his characters can take different roles if they want to.

In addition, he just straight up says it's always the same Mario.
 
liluzivert said:
Anyway guys, i think smashor is right. We should remove both Sonic's Solaris and Time Eater feats, because the ending of 06 said the events of that game didn't happen, and then Generations brought it back.

So CLEARLY we cannot use those two games, because they contradict everything
Click to expand...
I mean, that isn’t really comparable, trying to explain why Mario is both true same age and Older then DK at once is nearly unexplainable, this point can basically just be “Time Eater can bring back erased timelines”, specially since It’s shown that people remember bits and parts of 06 in stuff like Sonic Rivals

Though really I haven’t seen much comment on the MP5 manual thing
 
Chariot190 said:
Could we like, stop with this late 90s bullshit, I've lived through it once, I'd like to not live through it again, if we could not pull this Mario Vs. Sonic bullshit in 2021, that'd be fantastic.
Sonic is Sonic, he doesn't matter here, and Mario is Mario, he doesn't matter in Sonic CRT's, stop being petty.
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Actually I never cared about Mario vs Sonic, and I think sonic is a way better character. I'm bringing up Sonic because for some reason people want to use some rivalry to downgrade characters instead of doing reasonable power scaling that actually makes sense.
 
DragonLord said:
I mean, that isn’t really comparable, trying to explain why Mario is both true same age and Older then DK at once is nearly unexplainable, this point can basically just be “Time Eater can bring back erased timelines”, specially since It’s shown that people remember bits and parts of 06 in stuff like Sonic Rivals

Though really I haven’t seen much comment on the MP5 manual thing
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Ok and I can just say that Jumpman isn't the same as Mario, and that Mario meeting the young DK in NDC was from the Gameboy versions and the Mario vs Mini series. I can apply literally any headcanon I want to a plothole, that isn't an argument.

Blaze is supposed to be from another dimension in Rush, but is from the future in 06. Does that mean it's a different Blaze? Do I have to bring up other verses with the same type of plotholes? This argument is pointless, plotholes don't automatically contradict scaling. And we don't use them to give characters variable tiers.
 
DatOneWeeb said:
He's not Mario's creator + that's his viewing on Mickey Mouse, who they probably view as all the same.

In addition there's an entire section of the Encyclopedia that groups all spin-offs and mainlines as together.
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If Miyamoto, who is right beside him, doesn’t disagree, then I doubt he thinks different, especially since Miyamoto has directly compared Mario to similar characters and even Mickey himself

and really, I really feel there not saying the same person in the way you think it means, Plenty of creators or advertisers will treat characters of obviously different continuities like the same person, like saying “X is coming to the Big Screen” or “X has appeared in Comics”, they mean from a Meta Sense, each iteration of the character is basically the same even if they go through different stuff


liluzivert said:
Ok and I can just say that Jumpman isn't the same as Mario
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Can’t, even promo material for Donkey Kong calls Jumpman Mario and Miyamoto directly calls Pauline Mario’s “Old Flame”


liluzivert said:
Blaze is supposed to be from another dimension in Rush, but is from the future in 06. Does that mean it's a different Blaze?
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That is a bit confusing yeah, though the actual writer of Sonic 06 did say that he at least wanted to connect them in some way, perhaps when Blaze “goes to a different dimension” she’s reborn in some way?, I still don’t really feel that’s comparable
 
DragonLord said:
That is a bit confusing yeah, though the actual writer of Sonic 06 did say that he at least wanted to connect them in some way, perhaps when Blaze “goes to a different dimension” she’s reborn in some way?, I still don’t really feel that’s comparable
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everything I just listed in bold is literally headcanon and proves my point.

we don't care about plotholes, we are focusing on scaling. so far none of you have listed plotholes that actually contradict the feats shown.
 
DragonLord said:
If Miyamoto, who is right beside him, doesn’t disagree, then I doubt he thinks different, especially since Miyamoto has directly compared Mario to similar characters and even Mickey himself

and really, I really feel there not saying the same person in the way you think it means, Plenty of creators or advertisers will treat characters of obviously different continuities like the same person, like saying “X is coming to the Big Screen” or “X has appeared in Comics”, they mean from a Meta Sense, each iteration of the character is basically the same even if they go through different stuff
Click to expand...
It doesn't matter if Mickey Mouse has an establishment over what is connected and what isn't, we know that, but do they? If Miyamoto says that his character is the
same character across his different games, and then the Mickey comparison was brought up, that just tells you Miyamoto isn't one who studies Mickey's canon.

Except in this QnA, Link is brought up to being a different Hero in almost each game, it's a different body, which is why there are multiple Links. And then he asks if it's always the same Mario in different games, which is a yes. Meaning unlike Link who has different versions of himself across different games, Mario isn't that case.
 
liluzivert said:
everything I just listed in bold is literally headcanon and proves my point.

we don't care about plotholes, we are focusing on scaling. so far none of you have listed plotholes that actually contradict the feats shown.
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I mean, I don’t really see it as too Headcanon-y when the writer of the work says himself he intended a connection somewhere, it’s also just at best an oddity, Mario and DK’s relation is just an unexplainable canon thing, you can pretty much tell that unlike the point I mentioned, there isn’t really any simple explanation that you can infer the creator may have intended, it fractures the idea that they (Nintendo) really care about any canon


DatOneWeeb said:
Miyamoto isn't one who studies Mickey's canon.
Click to expand...
He certainly would know that Mickey Mouse cartoons don’t interact, specially since characters like him are used as his own example for Mario and how they “change roles” between each story and how they change decoding on the writers wills


DatOneWeeb said:
Except in this QnA, Link is brought up to being a different Hero in almost each game, it's a different body, which is why there are multiple Links. And then he asks if it's always the same Mario in different games, which is a yes. Meaning unlike Link who has different versions of himself across different games, Mario isn't that case.
Click to expand...
Hm, how do I explain this, you see, I think the thing is that having multiple Links is more a part of the character, like in Hyrule Warriors, a non canon Zelda game, they transfer the idea there are reincarnations because that’s just as iconic to the character as the master sword, canon or not a Modern Zelda product will include that element to make it “Zelda”, it’s like how certain characters have a brand of being “the next X” or “a Clone of X” or “A Alternate Universe X”, like if Jason Todd appears in media, he’s going to be the second Robin, meanwhile Mario has no element of this, no matter what canon, “Mario” is not a title or a thing someone can upheld, his Branding is that it’s just Mario and just him

Basically ask any creator (assuming they don’t hate the media in question) about an adaption with a obviously different canon but the same cast and they’ll say “there the same characters”, it’s really not always meant to be taken an as a canon thing, because in a meta sense, yeah there the same

Starsprite53 said:
Mickey's seperated profiles are from video games/ another media
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Fantasia is not “other media” it’s one of his most iconic roles
 
DragonLord said:
He certainly would know that Mickey Mouse cartoons don’t interact, specially since characters like him are used as his own example for Mario and how they “change roles” between each story and how they change decoding on the writers wills
Click to expand...
You realize when he said his characters can change roles, that they're still that same person. An actor can be in different movies, but that actor is still himself in the end. That's the point he made. For Mickey, I assume he's referring to the cartoons, from a casual watch you don't go "this is clearly an entirely different mouse". It's clear from HIS perspective, not ours, he views them as the same. Which isn't true, but it's a Miyamoto headcanon, but for Mario's case, he made it, so he can apply it there.

DragonLord said:
Hm, how do I explain this, you see, I think the thing is that having multiple Links is more a part of the character, like in Hyrule Warriors, a non canon Zelda game, they transfer the idea there are reincarnations because that’s just as iconic to the character as the master sword, canon or not a Modern Zelda product will include that element to make it “Zelda”, meanwhile Mario has no element of this, no matter what canon, “Mario” is not a title or a thing someone can upheld
Click to expand...
That's an entirely different perspective trying to be used, despite not being the case. We know the questioner is just referring to Link having several versions, he's not going as deep as you make it out. He wants to know if Mario's the same and if he has different versions of himself.
 
DragonLord said:
I mean, I don’t really see it as too Headcanon-y when the writer of the work says himself he intended a connection somewhere, it’s also just at best an oddity, Mario and DK’s relation is just an unexplainable canon thing, you can pretty much tell that unlike the point I mentioned, there isn’t really any simple explanation that you can infer the creator may have intended, it fractures the idea that they (Nintendo) really care about any canon
Click to expand...
Explain it then with actual proof that they are the same Blaze with that contradiction in mind. If you can't then this conversation is done.
 
DatOneWeeb said:
that they're still that same person. An actor can be in different movies, but that actor is still himself in the end. That's the point he made.
Click to expand...
But not every movie that has the same actor is canon to eachother, this is his explanation for why characters change roles and personalities and goals on a whim, there not the same story, just the same actor going into a different movie

I mean remember, when Mario was “Mr Video”, Miyamoto envisioned Mario as a character that can just go in anything without much explanation, the entire concept of the character is based around being used without much thinking behind it
DatOneWeeb said:
from a casual watch you don't go "this is clearly an entirely different mouse". It's clear from HIS perspective
Click to expand...
even the most casual viewer who watches these cartoons can tell they do not connect, they say there the same character because well, from a meta sense they are, same design voice usually personality, there the same person but in a different situation like what if Mickey was boat driver, or a musketeer, or a anime World hopper Magician

people don’t use these terms like “same character” or “same person” in reference to different canons, that’s pretty much the entire reason the wiki has Seperate profiles under same character listed with eachother, Batman Pre and Post crisis are still the same character, Batman, there the same person, Bruce Wayne, just extremely different histories, but even with that, you won’t find a person who still doesn’t call that Batman without making some point about how it’s “not there Batman” or something


DatOneWeeb said:
That's an entirely different perspective trying to be used, despite not being the case. We know the questioner is just referring to Link having several versions, he's not going as deep as you make it out. He wants to know if Mario's the same and if he has different versions of himself.
Click to expand...
I guess we’re at a impass, because I feel trying to say this is confirmation everything is the same canon is looking too deep into it, perhaps I’m just around the wrong people but that’s just generally not what people mean when they say something is the same person


liluzivert said:
Explain it then with actual proof that they are the same Blaze with that contradiction in mind. If you can't then this conversation is done.
Click to expand...
You mean like Blaze recognizing Crisis City?, that’s pretty much the entire reason people don’t just hand wave it as a different Blaze
 
liluzivert said:
Ok but Blaze is from a different dimension so how does that make sense? Explain how there is no contradiction.
Click to expand...
best answer I can give is that Blaze was sent to another Universe and reborn in some way, which seems to be the intention of the games writer




I believe the translation is “I wanted to make a sense there was a connection but nothing was officially stated”
 
DragonLord said:
best answer I can give is that Blaze was sent to another Universe and reborn in some way, which seems to be the intention of the games writer




I believe the translation is “I wanted to make a sense there was a connection but nothing was officially stated”
Click to expand...

I'm asking for a official statement that proves it's connected. Not headcanon and some writer's missed opportunity
 
liluzivert said:
I'm asking for a official statement that proves it's connected. Not headcanon and some writer's missed opportunity
Click to expand...
I mean, I feel like the main writer of the game isn’t really “some writer” but if you want the most recent statement that would be Iizuka in Sonic Boom 2012
Speaker: Iizuka-san, can you please clear out the story of Silver, Blaze and Eggman Nega? Also to mention, in the future, Sonic Rush, Sonic Rivals and Sonic 2006 they all know each other, but in Sonic Colors, they never met. / Takashi Iizuka (as translated by the Q&A board's translator): So everyone probably know this, but Silver and Eggman Nega are from the future, and Blaze is from an alternate dimension. But in 2006, basically what happens is that everyone had like amnesia.”
Click to expand...
This is probably the funniest interview he’s had, you can tell he’s kinda just stumped
 
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