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Re:Creators Revision Thread PART 2

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Lancer45Man

Lancer45Man

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So it's time. Altair needs some few additional upgrades to her arsenal as she seems to be lacking them as well as the speed and tier and by extension, Sirius too.

First of all, her Speed would be At Least Hypersonic for being way faster than all the Characters even in a casual state with them having High end Hypersonic via this calc

Secondly, her tier would be Low 7-C or Small Town Level+ for tanking Magical Splash Flare and being way above all the creations Via this Calc

Her EoS key would have At Least Low 2-C rating via being able to create Infinite Worlds and Stories in an undefined period of time

Range would be Multiversal for both Keys via Teleportation for being able to travel to any Universe in the verse and the Verse has Countless Universes

Now, the Haxes

Straight Forward
1) Conceptual Existence: Exists as a Type 4 Concept AKA a Lesser Realist Abstract As Per This Blog

2) Abstract Existence: She'll be a Type 1 Abstract as per This new Page of Abstract Existence

3) Immortality (Types 1, 5, 6, 8): Type 1 and 8 for existing as long as people believe in her and creations of her exist. Type 5 for existing as an idea aka Lesser Realist Conceptual Existence not bound by Life and Death. Type 6 for being able to possess others even conceptually.

4) Acausality (Types 1 and 4): Altair was born without a Story or a Plot and hence has no Past or Future and moreover, she was stated to Transcend the Yoke of the Storyworlds which binds them all together due to which she was unaffected by any plot or story and even in the real world

5) Information Manipulation: Via Representation Exposition which can "Revise" plots which allows her to change their properties. Used it to turn Selesia's sword into flowers, zombies into flowers, even overwrote Sirius into a new form for her after she possessed Sirius.

6) Matter Manipulation: Via Representation Exposition which was used to change Zombies and Selesia's Sword into Flowers

7) Passive Information Analysis: Can look at things, beings, powers,etc and understand them. Was able to understand about Sota just by looking at her for the first time. Looked at the Elimination Chamber and understood everything accurately about it despite not having any prior info on it. Looked at Selesia's Ionian Aphoria and quickly understood and described everything about it despite the ability being a newly created secret ability. Looked at Sirius and Understood that she too can use Holopsicon. Looked at the Train Station and understood everything about it despite her not being present when Setsuna committed suicide there. Ionion Aphoria being a secretly created new ability by Matsubara

8) Conceptual Absorption: Via Existence Change which could Overwrite a Target's Existence Entirely to the point where they dissapear from Existence and only the attacker survives but now with everything that the Target has ever had.

9) Ressurection and Regenerationn Negation (Mid-Godly): Via Existence Change which negated Altair's Mid-Godly Regen and denied her to come back from nothingness.

10) Targeted Reversal: Via Outline Origin which removes all the Plot Twists and brings a plot back to the beginning

11) Energy Manipulation: Blocked/Nullified Selesia's Wave Chant Toufekia Omnipotens in Ep 17

12) Non-Corporeal: Lacks a normal body and exists as a Hologram or "Physical Image" which is due to her being created as a concept art/character with no background story or history or Universe to dictate her Characteristics and attributes.


14) Statistics Amplification: Gets her power consistently increased due to Audience Acceptance and at the end of Ep 21 she gained the power to cause cracks within the Birdcage via her mere Existence.

15) Mind Control: Can Control Minions and make them obey her even after making duplicates of them in her videos

16) Dimensional Travel and BFR: Can go to different Dimensions and BFR beings

17) Text Manipulation: Can Manipulate Texts in devices

19) Power Bestowal: Boosted Setsuna to her own Level of Existence to the point where her own Existence was threatening to Warp the entire Universe created Specifically for her and gave her power to create Altair's story inside the story created by Altair

20) Void Manipulation, Law Manipulation, Spatial Manipulation, Time Manipulation (For Low 2-C): Created a Universe with it's own Laws to sustain Setsuna's existence and even voided it out. Created the Exact same date and time of Lake Uyuni when it it rainfalls and creates a reflective mirror of the night sky. Furthermore, since she's boosted to the level of a "God" or "Creator" she should have the abilities similar to a Creator.

21) Resistance to Information Manipulation, Power Modification, and Statistics Reduction: Could easily resist attempts of the creators to depower her due to her Abstract Existence

22) Resistances to Law Manipulation and Plot Manipulation: Lolnoped the attempts of Meteora and the Creators to control her inside the Birdcage and instead Hijacked it even tho Meteora could completely control the Birdcage and was revised with the power to control the Laws of the Universe and the Storyworlds

23) Resistance to Power Nullification: Powered up and destroyed Selesia's Pattern of Contract which initially Nullified Altair's Powers

25) Homing Attack Via Telekinetically controlling her numerous Swords

26) Non-Physical Interaction: Can destroy the Personas which are Non-Corporeal as well as fighting Sirius

27) Enhanced Senses and Extrasensory Perception: Can sense other creations

28) Resistance to Law Manipulation, Reality Warping, Physics Manipulation, Power Nullification, Existence Erasure: As explained in this Thread which was denied by Celestial as there was no proof at the time that the Restorative Powers were Passive. However, the Restorative Powers of the Real World are actually Passive as it passively nullified Meteora's Restoration Magic as well as enforced the concepts of Smell and Bleeding to both Selesia and Mamika in the real world even though they were completely absent in their respective Universes. Another recurring argument is that Altair was going to be thrown out of the world which means that the Laws of the Universe are effective against her. However, that's not entirely true as the Restorative Powers of the Universe could not affect her in the same way as it would have against the other creations and especially Meteora at the end of the series and the most the Universe could've done was throw her out where "thrown out" in here refers to BFR but rather erased as when that happened first, she states that her Physical Image was tearing apart/getting destroyed at their seams and that IF she tried to shake the Yoke/Pillar of the Universe only then it'll affect her. Moreover, as stated by Kikuchihara in Ep 5, Meteora was the second creation to come to the world after Altair and like Meteora explained, when too many creations exists in the Universe, it makes the Restorative Power weak. Even the canon Spin-off mentions this. So Meteora getting affected initially was likely because of how she was the only creation to exist beside Altair back then and how she was the only creation to exist in the end which made the world law'd her quickly. Even the Guidebook confirms that after Altair left, all the creations would've been Power Nulled/Reality Warped into humans which is also supported by the canon Spin-off Re:Creators One More.


Minor Details
1) The Limited and Minor term from her Limited Probability Manipulation and Minor Resistance to Existence Erasure should be removed seeing as how she can manipulate Probability which isn't really limited or minor and how she can resist the Real World's attempts of erasing her casually without being worried

2) Resistance to Biological Manipulation and Poison Manipulation should be removed as they are there for no reason
 
looks nice but outline orgin is not time manipulation it is plot manipulation so is Representation Exposition.Also what happened to low 1C altair was it rejected
 
Most of her abilities are plot manipulation lol. It's the application which helps to determine the ability. Like say a Reality Warper can erase a person with a thought which is existence erasure. But that doesn't mean he should not get Existence Erasure just because he used Reality Warper as he applied Reality Warping to erase him from existence.

In this context, Outline Origin reverts a person back to his/her initial state which is Targeted Time Reversal while Representation Exposition Revises the plot aka Changes the information about a person or an object or a being.
 
As I am going down I agree with all but the following. If it isn't here it means I agree with it.

4. Imo this should be Type 1. She has no backstory or past, that is certain. She spawned into the world the way she is currently. However, to say she has no future is just provably false. The fact that they are able to plan anything in regards to her to a testament to her being able to progress. Setsuna also claimed at the end to be able to "write her story", implying she does indeed have a future.

As for Type 4 I am fine with it so long as we mention that it is one of her Holopsicon movements.

7. 90% of this is just deductive reasoning. You don't need a superpower to be analytically intelligent. As for the train station and Sirius, it is heavily implied that she knew everything about the world up until Setsuna committed suicide, which would include Sirius and the station.

9. Absorption of this level already does this. There's no need to list it off as another power; that would just clutter her already wall-of-text page.

11. She just used her sword barricade. She never directly manipulated the wave chants.

13. Just a no. She addresses the "creators". The in-universe audience. That audience is a part of her reality; she never address US.

14. That's not what this power is. It would be Statistics Amplification if anything.

18. Altair doesn't really have a resistance to EE worth noting, so Sirius erasing her isn't exactly a feat aside from just EE.

20. Should be exclusive to her Low 2-C key but it's fine.

22. Altair understood how the birdcage worked and abused it. She doesn't have a special resistance for it.

24. Not really. Ionion Aphoria still worked, she just escaped it. Same with Alicetaria. If Altair hadn't reversed the effect of her hit she would have been killed by that attack. She actually struck her instead of just her image.

1. Cracks were occurring before Altair absorbing Sirius. She could always cause them, but had to be careful about when she did it. This is nothing new to her powerset and says more about the verse's cosmology than Altair herself.

2. A universe within a universe unless directly stated to be dimensionally transcendent of another in some way shouldn't be accepted as Higher-D manip, imo.

3. A big no pretty much outright. This is the one were I can basically say there is no point in even discussing because it isn't happening. Not only is being boosted by the audience a possible non-factor for speed (nothing indicates she got faster by audience boost), we have a very tight requirement for Void feats and this one meets none of them.

4. I actually agree with Resistance to Law and Power Null here. It is clear that despite the frequent and intense use of her powers that she was not greatly affected by the Restorative powers of the universe. While some people lost powers outright (Meteora), she kept hers even though she had been around and using them far more frequently.

However "reality warping" is so broad that we don't need it. We know it bends laws to the norm and that is nulls powers. Adding Reality warping is just overkill. Same thing with Physics manip. That's just a byproduct of a law being enforced resulting in power null.

I disagree with both EE and Concept manip. Concept restoration isn't a power that is shown by the restorative powers, so we can't well give it. She absolutely would have been EE'd if she kept pushing it, and we don't have a statement of anything indicating that the universe was already trying to erase her. It was about to and if she did anything else it would have, but we don't know that it was trying to do it already.

1. Where does she show outright Probability Manip? Also I agree with removing Resistance to EE because she just doesn't have this power, as I have stated above.
 
4. Well they never actually affected her in anyway tho even via manipulating the plot of the Birdcage. Her being an independent existence unbound by the Yoke of any Universe within the setting of the verse is proof of that as without a plot, no one would have a Fate or future to cintrol. Even in Altair's Precognition, Sirius doesn't show up even though it was able to accurately predict everything from Magane's alignment to Aliceteria's eventual Betrayal. And Setsuna being able to create her story isn't much of a feat as it was Inside the Story that Altair was going to Write for her and moreover, we don't know how that would even affect Altair as the series doesn't show much.

7. Yeah but she could instantly analyze Ionion Aphoria and explain all of its mechanics even tho the ability was created as a super secret Trump card against Altair by Matsubara specifically for the Elimination Chamber

11. I was talking about the scene in Ep 17 from 4:50 to 5:05 where she summons some sort of feathers or something and blocks and nullifies the Wave Chant

18. Well she did resist the World's attempts to erase her and was struggling against Sirius's erasure too

22. She was unaffected by the attempts of affecting her inside the Birdcage which was a live plot. It's a Resistance to Plot Manipulation feat at the very least.

24. Yeah but she was actually hit and it was only after she named her ability that the Causality was changed with Aliceteria getting Hit and still barely surviving.

1) So Passive Reality Warping? Considering the Elimination Chamber was made to contain Altair and her actions along with the Creations, yet she was causing cracks by mere presence.

3) Well the Speed should be Unknown then

4) Well we could add them, not like it's incorrect or anything but actually helps to increase her wall of text OvO.

1) The Probability Manipulation comes from her stating she found a single exit amongst an infinite number of gates as well as Meteora stating Altair found a "Possibility" for possessing Sirius and took over her.

2) you mean Resistance to Poison and Bio manip? Also the resistance to ee is explained above.
 
Straightforward part:

1-2) If the type 4 concept sustains her existence, it's type 2 abstract existence. Type 1 is for "you can't affect me without affecting the concept" sort of characters.

3) Ok

4) I believe that this would be type 1 + 4

5) Ok

6) Information Manipulation as established above

7) Ok

8) What's the evidence for this being conceptual?

9) That's Possession, no? It doesn't really have anything to do with regen

10) Ok

11) Need a scan

12) I don't know the context, but it seems like some external influence doing stuff to her in that scan.

13) Ok

14) That sounds like her being empowered by the audience rather than growing in power on her own

15-16-17) Need a scan

18) That's not resistance negation, just stronger erasure

19) Ok

20) I'll need scans for the context of this one. The scan in #22 proves Law Manipulation though.

21) Seems fine

22) It's not resistance to law manipulation, she gained it herself. And i'd rather avoid "Resistance to Reality Warping", given that it means everything and nothing

23-24-25) Need scans

Controversial ones:

1) It's Space-Time Manipulation, it doesn't seem to be passive, and a throwaway mention of "concept" doesn't prove conceptual manipulation

2) I guess this looks fine

3) No. She needs explicit statements for that, as well as the void being described as timeless, plus she doesn't live in the void, she can simply operate there

Don't have time for #4 right now, will check later

Minor stuff looks good
 
1-2) Because to affect her, you need to directly affect her concept otherwise she isn't affected physically. And it's not that Type 4 Sustains her, she Is the type 4 aka a Lesser Realist Abstract.

8) Sirius was going to Overwrite Altair's Concept itself by absorbing her concept to make it so that the Idea of Altair is overwritten by Sirius's concept and only Sirius exists

9) Not Possession. Altair was nearly Overwritten and would've ceased entirely had she not acted fast and took Advantage of Sirius's lack of Personality and possessed her.

11) From 4:50 to 5:00

12) Her physical body or manifestation exists as a "Physical Image" which was getting affected when the World tried to erase her

14) Statistics Amplification as per Assalt which I have no doubt

15) 12:40 - 13:00. She replicates the feat in Episode 10

16) 00:00 to 00:50

17) It was done in Ep 1 as well as in Ep 21 as a side effect of Manipulating data in electronic devices

20) The context is that the Creators can affect the Storyworlds as they seem fit. They can void out, warp reality and causality, manip Space-Time and law within their stories which takes effect in their respective Universes. Altair EOS became massively amped and performed those feats as well being called a Creator and a God by everyone.

22) The one who gained Law Manip was Meteora who was Controlling the Elimination Chamber, a live Story but failed to control or affect Altair in the slightest

23) Discussed here, Selesia Power Nulled Altair initially, but Altair Powered up and Lolnoped that Power Null

24) It's from this thread where Selesia, Aliceteria, and Kanoya were conceptually boosted and attacked Altair's Concept to destroy her

25) Throughout the series she telekinetically controls her swords and makes them act as homing attacks against the target as well as sometimes rain them down on her target

Controversial Ones

1) Don't really see how it's Space-Time manip imo. She was going to make the Concept, that sustained the Birdcage, dissapear.

2) Not Accepted by Assalt but lolok

3) Unknown Speed confirmed

4) Accepted by Assalt who watched the show so it's fine.
 
1) Which part of the blog says this though? For reference, type 1 needs stuff like this, in order to prove that she is a concept and nothing more.

8) Scan for the conceptual part?

9-12-14-17-20-22-23) Ok

24) I'll leave this one to Assalt, not sure

25) Homing Attack should be fine, but not danmaku

1) Because she is destroying a pocket dimension. And I already explained that I don't think that a throwaway mention of the word "concept" is enough evidence

I'll check the videos later, on mobile right now
 
1) Well it's not directly stated but heavily implied and shown that she is a Type 4 Concept throughout the entire series for which me and Assalt had a discussion on this and we came to the conclusion. And I don't think type 2 abstract existence applies for a Lesser Realist Abstract as you exist as the Abstract instead of embodying it or anything.

8) You gonna have to watch the entire fight from 7:50 to 15:15

25) Okay Cool.

1) Well it's a Live Plot rather than a Pocket Dimension. Altair has escaped from Infinite Spaces meant to Seal her and destroy her Conceptually but she could not escape the Birdcage as she lacked power to do so initially but later gained enough power to destroy it.
 
ZacharyGrossman273 said:
That's just non-corporeal, not type 1 conceptual.
Click to expand...
I'm assuming you never read my blog. I never said she was a "Type 1" Conceptual but "Type 4 Concept" aka a Lesser Realist Abstract and based on the Abstract Existence page, she will be a "Type 1 Abstract Existence" aka she doesn't embody any concept as Type 4 Concept is a concept that doesn't govern reality but rather the perceptions of the people govern these concept and hence she doesn't exist as a Type 2 Abstract Existence but rather a Type 1 for being the Abstract herself.
 
1) Essentially the main difference between type 1-2 abstract is that a type 1 has a "true self" so to speak, which is the abstraction.

Essentially you can't punch a type 1 abstract without conceptual punches, while you can do so to a type 2 abstract (won't kill them however).

And yes Type 2 abstract existence does apply to lesser realist concepts.

8) Ok

1) Correct me if I'm wrong, but works of fiction are worlds in Re:Creators, right? So it could be a "live plot" while being a pocket dimension
 
1) Ah then Type 1 definitely fits as to attack Altair you'd need Conceptual attacks or Conceptual Boosted Attacks because Physical Attacks are completely meaningless

1) Yes actually
 
I'm aware, what I need to know is if they are needed to harm her to begin with, or to put her down for good.

The former is type 1, the latter is type 2
 
So what is still in contention? Is there something that either Kal or I disagreed with that has not been either satisfied or dropped?
 
Assaltwaffle said:
So what is still in contention? Is there something that either Kal or I disagreed with that has not been either satisfied or dropped?
Click to expand...
Nothing actually. There's things that you disagree but Kal agrees with
 
ZacharyGrossman273 said:
I agree with kal here. Altair is just type 2.
Click to expand...
Zach if you haven't been following the thread then I should let you know that Kal is asking if Concept Attacks are required to harm her or put her down. He isn't agreeing or making a statement but rather expressing a question
 
Peter1129 said:
I think it's just deciding if Altair has Type 1 or Type 2 Abstract Existence.
Click to expand...
^ Personally I'm cool with either but she was shown to be an Abstraction itself and not a being that embodies a concept who could be affected Physically.
 
@Lancer

I agree that she can't be hurt physically unless you first target her concept. It has been shown that punching or blasting her normally just doesn't work.

Also what do Kal and I disagree on? You've probably been following the thread more than me, since most of it happened while I was asleep.
 
I think that he was referring to the higher dimensional manipulation part.

Granted, iirc the power is getting deleted, so it isn't that big of a deal
 
Yes.

Edit: Done

Edit #2: Would her Resistance to Concept Attacks stay considering she was actually hit by Aliceteria's Conceptual Attack and it was only after she named her ability that the Causality was changed with Aliceteria getting Hit and still barely surviving?
 
@Lancer

I don't think she has concept resistance. Ion ion Aphoria sealed her concept entirely. Even though she named her attack then hit Alicetaria, that was probably just cinematic timing. If she hadn't reversed the attack I'm sure that would have killed her.

Let me re-read the OP.
 
Oh and I almost forgot to mention, her speed would just be "At least Hypersonic". We don't Tier jump for being faster/stronger; the "at least" prefix exists for these purposes.
 
@Assalt hmmm well what if her Causality Manipulation was actually passive that delayed the effects of Aliceteria's Attack and once she named her ability it attacked her as a dramatic effect for the Audience. There's also a possibility that she must have activated it when Alicetaria was charging her attack but the former one seems cool.

And also, okay but she was Massively faster than everyone there. Scaling wise it's be Casual Altair >> Hikayu > Selesia/Charon. But I understand you. And also, her EOS key would be Unknown in Speed.

@Tman Thanks xD
 
Tbh her EoS key would be the same as her normal key. She doesn't display any boosts of speed and we can assume she didn't get slower. If you wish to make it unknown it should be "Unknow, at least Hypersonic".
 
Well her powers were consistently increased by the Audience Acceptance throughout the Elimination Chamber and she gets a massive boost EoS. I'm not saying it decreased but rather it increased but to an unknown extent. But I'll go with your proposal here.
 
I'll do a write up about what I think should be good to go and phrase it appropriately soon. I'll just duplicate her page and edit the dupe as a prototype for the update.
 
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