Rasengan Barrage is more than a 2x amp

[MinatoSparkle]

Doing hw but could get to it in several hours

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Uhhhh ok so I started quoting posts then I realized that way too many would have to be posted to get the full understanding, so imma just summarize and recommend to skim through the thread.

• So obviously the biggest argument is the OP itself
• It was said that by this logic any character using multiple of the same attack at once could get a multiplier
• This is different since it's implied that the Rasengans clashing combines their power, rather than just hits different areas at the same time, and the direct DB statement adds a lot of credence to this
• They're not physically combining, so they're just like other Rasengan variants
• Those other ones don't have rotations connecting

 

[Nierre]

Doesn't really matter. He's proposing at least 2x because that's what the Databook implies. I'm not sure what the contention is. The databook said that the power "more than doubles" because of the inverse rotations. So it's not just "two rasengans" it's the effect of the two rasengans rotating against each other more than doubling it's power. This is perfectly fine to add in the profile.


The Rasengan Barrage isn't "just" powerful because there are two rasengans, it's because of the effect that happens when they clash, making it way stronger than it would've been if it was just two rasengans.

Planetary Rasengan ALSO has multiple rotations that happen when it hits the target, which is why it's an enhanced and far stronger version of RB.

The key words are inverse rotations, Naruto spamming Rasengans (like he did against Kurama) do not inverse rotate against each other, but what Naruto does here with RB and PR, is that he purposely makes the rasengans rotate against each other massively increasing the strength of the rasengans.

If I'm hit with two Rasengans (not inversely rotating), I'd just spin in the same way they're rotating and get knocked away, but if I got hit with two Rasengans rotating inversely, I'd likely be shredded because im being twisted/rotated in two different directions. (When Naruto uses PR against Muu we see numerous rotations before getting launched away)

here was my argument; agreeing with the OP

 

[Padaruyos]

For the affected techniques, the 2x multiplier will apply to any attack that is on the equal level of Rasengan Barrage or stronger than it.

Which would be, Rasengan Barrage itself, Planetary Rasengan (stated to be a superior version of Rasengan Barrage), Rasenshuriken (Naruto's strongest technique during Pain Arc and Early War Arc), Likely Tailed Beast Bombs (seems to be Naruto's strongest attack in KCM2)

Who this affects.
Pain Arc - War Arc SM/KCM1 Naruto (8.6 GT with strongest techniques, 15.55 GT for KCM1 Rasenshuriken)
Early KCM2 Naruto (43 GT with strongest Rasengans)
"Mastered" KCM2 Naruto (197 TT with strongest Rasengans or TBB)
BSM Naruto (200 TT with strongest Rasengans or TBB)
EMS Sasuke Senjutsu Susano'o (possibly 200 TT with Susano'o Arrows, seems to be equally as powerful as BSM Naruto's TBB)
War Arc Majestic Attire Susano'o (possibly 400 TT with TBB)
Kurama (394 TT with TBB)
Madara's Majestic Attire Susano'o and Hashirama's Shinsusenju (788 TT with strongest techniques)

There's more than this for Six Paths characters.

War Arc SPSM Naruto (156.4 ZT with strongest Rasengans, Boil Release, and Kurama Avatar TBB)
Kaguya Otsutsuki (156.4 ZT durability, tanked Naruto's Super Tailed Beast Rasenshuriken)
BSM The Last Naruto (78.2 ZT, likely 156.4 ZT with strongest techniques)
Boruto era Base and SM Naruto (312.8 ZT with strongest techniques)
Boruto Era SPSM Naruto (625.6 ZT with strongest techniques)
Full Power Jigen, Unlimited Code, Daemon, and Isshiki (625.6 ZT, stated nothing Sasuke and Naruto can do will defeat Jigen)

 

[noninho]

might not be adding to much here but so far i agree to what i've read on the OP. totally.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I agree

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Ok. I'll look over everything and give my thoughts.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Uhhhh ok so I started quoting posts then I realized that way too many would have to be posted to get the full understanding, so imma just summarize and recommend to skim through the thread.

• So obviously the biggest argument is the OP itself
• It was said that by this logic any character using multiple of the same attack at once could get a multiplier
• This is different since it's implied that the Rasengans clashing combines their power, rather than just hits different areas at the same time, and the direct DB statement adds a lot of credence to this
• They're not physically combining, so they're just like other Rasengan variants
• Those other ones don't have rotations connecting

here was my argument; agreeing with the OP

Uh, well, thank you both for providing summaries and helping get my bearings.
So I'm gonna level with ya'll, I've grown to really dislike multipliers, especially for Naruto, but I kinda don't see anything wrong with the arguments I've seen from both of you. The statements for the RB and PR are pretty straightforward, and I agree with the interpretation of it being about the inverse rotations resulting in double the power, rather than it just being 2 Rasengans simply added together. We certainly won't be handing out multipliers for any techniques that use multiple attacks at the same time. That sort of thing is expressly against the Wiki's multipliers rules anyway.
So yeah, I'll wait to maybe see if the opposition have anything to add; perhaps I've missed something here, but for now I think the RB and PR being 2x Naruto's regular AP is fine.

For the affected techniques, the 2x multiplier will apply to any attack that is on the equal level of Rasengan Barrage or stronger than it.

Which would be, Rasengan Barrage itself, Planetary Rasengan (stated to be a superior version of Rasengan Barrage), Rasenshuriken (Naruto's strongest technique during Pain Arc and Early War Arc), Likely Tailed Beast Bombs (seems to be Naruto's strongest attack in KCM2)

Now this I disagree with. The Rasenshuriken and other techniques should not be granted this multiplier IMO. The statements are specifically for the RB and PR, and the amp is due to the inverse rotations, which the FRS and TBB do not possess. If there are statements explicitly stating that, say, "the FRS/TBB is Naruto's strongest attack" or something along those lines that would imply AP superiority to the RB, then these techniques may scale above the RB/PR value (whatever that may be), but I do not see any reason for them to be granted a multiplier themselves. They do not have a statement of a multiplier, which is the single most important requirement for multipliers to be accepted here.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Uh, well, thank you both for providing summaries and helping get my bearings.
So I'm gonna level with ya'll, I've grown to really dislike multipliers, especially for Naruto, but I kinda don't see anything wrong with the arguments I've seen from both of you. The statements for the RB and PR are pretty straightforward, and I agree with the interpretation of it being about the inverse rotations resulting in double the power, rather than it just being 2 Rasengans simply added together. We certainly won't be handing out multipliers for any techniques that use multiple attacks at the same time. That sort of thing is expressly against the Wiki's multipliers rules anyway.
So yeah, I'll wait to maybe see if the opposition have anything to add; perhaps I've missed something here, but for now I think the RB and PR being 2x Naruto's regular AP is fine.

Now this I disagree with. The Rasenshuriken and other techniques should not be granted this multiplier IMO. The statements are specifically for the RB and PR, and the amp is due to the inverse rotations, which the FRS and TBB do not possess. If there are statements explicitly stating that, say, "the FRS/TBB is Naruto's strongest attack" or something along those lines that would imply AP superiority to the RB, then these techniques may scale above the RB/PR value (whatever that may be), but I do not see any reason for them to be granted a multiplier themselves. They do not have a statement of a multiplier, which is the single most important requirement for multipliers to be accepted here.

That seems fair to me.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Uh, well, thank you both for providing summaries and helping get my bearings.
So I'm gonna level with ya'll, I've grown to really dislike multipliers, especially for Naruto, but I kinda don't see anything wrong with the arguments I've seen from both of you. The statements for the RB and PR are pretty straightforward, and I agree with the interpretation of it being about the inverse rotations resulting in double the power, rather than it just being 2 Rasengans simply added together. We certainly won't be handing out multipliers for any techniques that use multiple attacks at the same time. That sort of thing is expressly against the Wiki's multipliers rules anyway.
So yeah, I'll wait to maybe see if the opposition have anything to add; perhaps I've missed something here, but for now I think the RB and PR being 2x Naruto's regular AP is fine.

Now this I disagree with. The Rasenshuriken and other techniques should not be granted this multiplier IMO. The statements are specifically for the RB and PR, and the amp is due to the inverse rotations, which the FRS and TBB do not possess. If there are statements explicitly stating that, say, "the FRS/TBB is Naruto's strongest attack" or something along those lines that would imply AP superiority to the RB, then these techniques may scale above the RB/PR value (whatever that may be), but I do not see any reason for them to be granted a multiplier themselves. They do not have a statement of a multiplier, which is the single most important requirement for multipliers to be accepted here.

Well I get what you mean, but there are some pretty clear implications that those were his strongest attacks at the time (or at least stronger than RB).

Rasenshuriken:

• When Naruto was charging it up, Shima thought it had a shocking amount of chakra but no such comments were made about the RB
• It shredded a Path to actual oblivion while the RB simply damaged the Animal Path's body a bit. This could be attributed to the Animal Path being more durable, but considering both Paths took a kick from SM Jiraiya with moderate but not great damage, they should have pretty similar durability, certainly not so different that an attack with more power would slightly rip one of them and one with less would turn the other to dust
• When Naruto's RS failed against the 3rd Raikage, he tried to use a Bijuudama rather than a RB, and seemed lost when that failed as if he didn't have any other options (at least until talking to Gyuki and came up with his genius strategy)
• the Super Bijuu Rasenshuriken is stated to be Naruto's ultimate technique
• Was his choice to counter Sasuke's strongest attack

Bijuudama:

• aforementioned 3rd Raikage instance
• When seeing that his Massive Rasengan wouldn't work, he decided to try a Bijuudama on Juubito
• The databook somewhat implies it's Naruto's strongest attack, as it says it's used against the user's greatest enemies
• Idk if this would be considered canon, but the Naruto Official website considers the KA and Bijuudama as Naruto's strongest attacks

Probably more I'm not thinking of in which case I'll mention more

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Bump

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I'll try to reply soon, sorry for the delay.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Well I get what you mean, but there are some pretty clear implications that those were his strongest attacks at the time (or at least stronger than RB).

Well, again, if you want to stick an actual multiplier on these techniques, then you need a clear cut statement of a multiplier.
If you just want to scale them above the value the RB will be at through power scaling, then that's a conversation we can have. I know it seems like a redundant distinction, but it makes a big difference. We can't scale multipliers if that makes sense.

Rasenshuriken:

• When Naruto was charging it up, Shima thought it had a shocking amount of chakra but no such comments were made about the RB

I mean, Shima didn't see the RB in action, did she? Naruto fired it off inside Gamabunta's mouth, out of everyone's sight. And we're now discussing chakra amounts/volume, when the reason for the multiplier's existence is counter rotations, rather than sheer chakra amounts/volume. Like, the RS could have more chakra put into it than the two individual Rasengans used to create the Barrage (and it certainly does), but according to your own arguments, that's not really what creates the doubling force.

• It shredded a Path to actual oblivion while the RB simply damaged the Animal Path's body a bit. This could be attributed to the Animal Path being more durable, but considering both Paths took a kick from SM Jiraiya with moderate but not great damage, they should have pretty similar durability, certainly not so different that an attack with more power would slightly rip one of them and one with less would turn the other to dust

Given the nature of how the Rasenshuriken deals damage, this would've happened even if it were weaker than the RB in terms of sheer AP. Not saying that it is necessarily, but just replying to the argument in isolation.

• When Naruto's RS failed against the 3rd Raikage, he tried to use a Bijuudama rather than a RB, and seemed lost when that failed as if he didn't have any other options (at least until talking to Gyuki and came up with his genius strategy)

I mean, to be fair, Naruto just witnessed his most lethal Jutsu fail to do any damage, so I guess it makes sense for him to attempt the technique that Bee has been gassing up as a Jinchuriki's "Ultimate technique" as a last ditch effort. It's not like Naruto knew how powerful it would actually be given that he'd never used it himself up to that point (at least while in control of his actions). So yeah, IDK. Like I get your point, but I don't see this being enough to grant a multiplier.

• the Super Bijuu Rasenshuriken is stated to be Naruto's ultimate technique
• Was his choice to counter Sasuke's strongest attack

Tbf, this is rather different from the regular FRS. For one, it's a combination of a FRS and a TBB. Also, it's multiple attacks used in tandem. I don't doubt that this is the strongest Jutsu in Naruto's arsenal, but I don't see why it should have a multiplier attached to it.
It should scale above anything Naruto is normally rated as though, of course. So it gets a "far higher" than whatever Naruto's rated as at the time.

Bijuudama:

• aforementioned 3rd Raikage instance
• When seeing that his Massive Rasengan wouldn't work, he decided to try a Bijuudama on Juubito

This just proves that the bijuudama is stronger than the massive Rasengan, which makes sense since it's a higher concentration of chakra. But the massive Rasengan is kinda irrelevant to this discussion.

• The databook somewhat implies it's Naruto's strongest attack, as it says it's used against the user's greatest enemies

Well, yeah, we know that the TBB is supposed to be a Jinchuriki's strongest attack, we had a whole thread proving this a while back. But none of these statements really take into account a fringe technicality such as the RB's counter rotations mechanic, or even Naruto himself for that matter. Naruto has a much more varied offensive arsenal than most Jinchuriki, and a lot of his techniques have more to them than sheer AP.

• Idk if this would be considered canon, but the Naruto Official website considers the KA and Bijuudama as Naruto's strongest attacks

 I could just be blind here, but I see nothing about the TBB in that page. It just mentions the KA, which I believe is a reference to Jigen stating that Naruto and Sasuke were now "going all out" upon entering the KA and PS respectively. And yeah, it makes sense. These are indeed their strongest forms available to them at the time (ignoring potential power ups like Boil Release and the MA, among others).
As for canonicity, this seems like an official source to me, but it's not like we need it since we have a very similar statement in the original source material.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Well, again, if you want to stick an actual multiplier on these techniques, then you need a clear cut statement of a multiplier.
If you just want to scale them above the value the RB will be at through power scaling, then that's a conversation we can have. I know it seems like a redundant distinction, but it makes a big difference. We can't scale multipliers if that makes sense.

Isn't that the same thing in practice? I'm js Rasenshuriken/KA/Bijuudama>RB>2x Naruto's regular AP

I mean, Shima didn't see the RB in action, did she? Naruto fired it off inside Gamabunta's mouth, out of everyone's sight. And we're now discussing chakra amounts/volume, when the reason for the multiplier's existence is counter rotations, rather than sheer chakra amounts/volume. Like, the RS could have more chakra put into it than the two individual Rasengans used to create the Barrage (and it certainly does), but according to your own arguments, that's not really what creates the doubling force.

Considering it's based on sensing and not seeing I don't think Naruto being hidden makes any difference. And it's not the two Rasengans hitting that necessarily creates the amp, but in terms of pure chakra volume, 2 Rasengans are just gonna have double the chakra volume of 1, and she felt more from the Rasenshuriken. So even if it doesn't necessarily prove RS>RB, it certainly is implicative that the RS is more than twice as strong as a normal Rasengan.

Given the nature of how the Rasenshuriken deals damage, this would've happened even if it were weaker than the RB in terms of sheer AP. Not saying that it is necessarily, but just replying to the argument in isolation.

Not necessarily? A direct hit from a Rasenshuriken doesn't necessarily have to tear someone's body apart, just their chakra network. This physical effect wasn't accomplished on Kakuzu, A3, the Juubi, Madara, or Kaguya. What would you even count as the Rasenshuriken's "sheer AP" if not the ability to cut through bodies?

I mean, to be fair, Naruto just witnessed his most lethal Jutsu fail to do any damage, so I guess it makes sense for him to attempt the technique that Bee has been gassing up as a Jinchuriki's "Ultimate technique" as a last ditch effort. It's not like Naruto knew how powerful it would actually be given that he'd never used it himself up to that point (at least while in control of his actions). So yeah, IDK. Like I get your point, but I don't see this being enough to grant a multiplier.

I mean the whole point IS that the RS was Naruto's ace in the sleeve. When that failed, he didn't try the RB, or even the enhanced version of Planetary Rasengan, and instead chose to use a technique he wasn't even sure he could pull off. That'd be a pretty reckless move if Naruto actually had techniques stronger than the RS he could still try. Also Bee did say Naruto had pulled it off a few times in training, so he probably did have an idea of its strength.

Tbf, this is rather different from the regular FRS. For one, it's a combination of a FRS and a TBB. Also, it's multiple attacks used in tandem. I don't doubt that this is the strongest Jutsu in Naruto's arsenal, but I don't see why it should have a multiplier attached to it.
It should scale above anything Naruto is normally rated as though, of course. So it gets a "far higher" than whatever Naruto's rated as at the time.

That is the idea. Something like "Unknown (The power of his base form is unclear), Small Planet level+ with Six Paths Sage Mode (Kicked away Madara's Truth-Seeking Ball), Planet level with Kurama Mode (Fought and damaged Kaguya Ōtsutsuki. The Six Path's Chibaku Tensei he made with Sasuke is this strong), higher with Rasengan Barrage (more than twice as strong as a regular Rasengan), even higher with stronger Rasengan variants (His Tailed Beast Bomb Rasenshurikens matched Dual Rinnegan Jūbi Jinchūriki Madara's Chibaku Tensei. Super Bijū Rasenshuriken was considered Naruto's ultimate technique at the time), and Boil Release (Boosts his chakra to the boiling point, increasing his physical strength to the point that he could overpower Kaguya[59]), far higher with Asura Avatar (Absorbed all of the Senjutsu left on the planet and greatly increased his strength. Matched Sasuke's Six Paths Susanoo's Indra's Arrow)

This just proves that the bijuudama is stronger than the massive Rasengan, which makes sense since it's a higher concentration of chakra. But the massive Rasengan is kinda irrelevant to this discussion.

I mean it was portrayed as his best option.

Well, yeah, we know that the TBB is supposed to be a Jinchuriki's strongest attack, we had a whole thread proving this a while back. But none of these statements really take into account a fringe technicality such as the RB's counter rotations mechanic, or even Naruto himself for that matter. Naruto has a much more varied offensive arsenal than most Jinchuriki, and a lot of his techniques have more to them than sheer AP.

AP is the discussion here tho, and Naruto is still a jinchuriki so the statement probably applies to him too

 I could just be blind here, but I see nothing about the TBB in that page. It just mentions the KA, which I believe is a reference to Jigen stating that Naruto and Sasuke were now "going all out" upon entering the KA and PS respectively. And yeah, it makes sense. These are indeed their strongest forms available to them at the time (ignoring potential power ups like Boil Release and the MA, among others).

Depends on if you consider the Boruto anime version of the fight as part of the statement since he used a Bijuudama there, though anyways it doesn't matter since Bijuu>KA.

As for canonicity, this seems like an official source to me, but it's not like we need it since we have a very similar statement in the original source material.

So then KA>RB in AP

 

[karo_senpaii]

For the affected techniques, the 2x multiplier will apply to any attack that is on the equal level of Rasengan Barrage or stronger than it.

Which would be, Rasengan Barrage itself, Planetary Rasengan (stated to be a superior version of Rasengan Barrage), Rasenshuriken (Naruto's strongest technique during Pain Arc and Early War Arc), Likely Tailed Beast Bombs (seems to be Naruto's strongest attack in KCM2)

Who this affects.
Pain Arc - War Arc SM/KCM1 Naruto (8.6 GT with strongest techniques, 15.55 GT for KCM1 Rasenshuriken)
Early KCM2 Naruto (43 GT with strongest Rasengans)
"Mastered" KCM2 Naruto (197 TT with strongest Rasengans or TBB)
BSM Naruto (200 TT with strongest Rasengans or TBB)
EMS Sasuke Senjutsu Susano'o (possibly 200 TT with Susano'o Arrows, seems to be equally as powerful as BSM Naruto's TBB)
War Arc Majestic Attire Susano'o (possibly 400 TT with TBB)
Kurama (394 TT with TBB)
Madara's Majestic Attire Susano'o and Hashirama's Shinsusenju (788 TT with strongest techniques)

There's more than this for Six Paths characters.

War Arc SPSM Naruto (156.4 ZT with strongest Rasengans, Boil Release, and Kurama Avatar TBB)
Kaguya Otsutsuki (156.4 ZT durability, tanked Naruto's Super Tailed Beast Rasenshuriken)
BSM The Last Naruto (78.2 ZT, likely 156.4 ZT with strongest techniques)
Boruto era Base and SM Naruto (312.8 ZT with strongest techniques)
Boruto Era SPSM Naruto (625.6 ZT with strongest techniques)
Full Power Jigen, Unlimited Code, Daemon, and Isshiki (625.6 ZT, stated nothing Sasuke and Naruto can do will defeat Jigen)

Since it was stated that nothing naruto and sasuke can do will defeat jigen shouldn't jigen scale above majestic attire susanoo? I.e 1251.2 ZT?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Isn't that the same thing in practice? I'm js Rasenshuriken/KA/Bijuudama>RB>2x Naruto's regular AP

It might be, assuming you can manage to scale the RS above the RB in terms of power-scaling, but the point is that the RS would not have a multiplier of its own in isolation, if that makes sense. A minor distinction, but an important one on principle.

Considering it's based on sensing and not seeing I don't think Naruto being hidden makes any difference. And it's not the two Rasengans hitting that necessarily creates the amp, but in terms of pure chakra volume, 2 Rasengans are just gonna have double the chakra volume of 1, and she felt more from the Rasenshuriken. So even if it doesn't necessarily prove RS>RB, it certainly is implicative that the RS is more than twice as strong as a normal Rasengan.

Fair on the sensing point. I guess as a perfect Sage, Shima would be able to sense the attacks' power just fine. I kinda forgot that she can sense shit normally, and assumed it was just one of those cases of characters "sensing" incredibly strong chakra, even without being actual sensory types. You know what I mean with that, it happens a lot. Anyway, I digress.
Uhhh, so this is where you kinda might start to lose me. I thought we agreed that the multiplier was only a thing due to the counter rotations specifically. This is the conclusion I came to from the scans provided, as well as your and Nierre's arguments that I saw. If you're actually arguing that the 2x amp is there because "well, it's 2 Rasengans lol", then I'm going to have to disagree with this whole thing because it's explicitly against the wiki's multiplier rules.
Assuming we agree that it's just the former, then I have to say that, once again, the chakra volume shouldn't even be a factor here.

Not necessarily? A direct hit from a Rasenshuriken doesn't necessarily have to tear someone's body apart, just their chakra network. This physical effect wasn't accomplished on Kakuzu, A3, the Juubi, Madara, or Kaguya. What would you even count as the Rasenshuriken's "sheer AP" if not the ability to cut through bodies?

The thing is that the RS that hit the Human Path was kinda unique, as in we literally never saw it again (outside of the one that hit Juubidara, but that one was the Lava variant, which I'm not sure would still have the microscopic mini wind blades). It expands horizontally and cuts like a giant circular disc, whereas the standard RS expansion is like a spherical explosion. I think it should be quite clear why the one that hit the Human Path would create the shearing effect, while the others wouldn't necessarily. Furthermore, the comparison with the RB is kinda flawed to begin with cause that attack doesn't deal damage in a similar way, it's more of a blunt force rotation effect rather than a cutting attack. So at the end of the day we're comparing apples to oranges here, as the attacks wouldn't deal the same kind of damage anyway, regardless of which one is actually stronger.

I mean the whole point IS that the RS was Naruto's ace in the sleeve. When that failed, he didn't try the RB, or even the enhanced version of Planetary Rasengan, and instead chose to use a technique he wasn't even sure he could pull off. That'd be a pretty reckless move if Naruto actually had techniques stronger than the RS he could still try. Also Bee did say Naruto had pulled it off a few times in training, so he probably did have an idea of its strength.

I do see your point here, but it feels a bit conjectural to me at the same time. I could definitely see the TBB being Naruto's strongest attack in terms of AP, but at the same time, I'd like a more straightforward justification for it if it's meant to go on the profiles.

That is the idea. Something like "Unknown (The power of his base form is unclear), Small Planet level+ with Six Paths Sage Mode (Kicked away Madara's Truth-Seeking Ball), Planet level with Kurama Mode (Fought and damaged Kaguya Ōtsutsuki. The Six Path's Chibaku Tensei he made with Sasuke is this strong), higher with Rasengan Barrage (more than twice as strong as a regular Rasengan), even higher with stronger Rasengan variants (His Tailed Beast Bomb Rasenshurikens matched Dual Rinnegan Jūbi Jinchūriki Madara's Chibaku Tensei. Super Bijū Rasenshuriken was considered Naruto's ultimate technique at the time), and Boil Release (Boosts his chakra to the boiling point, increasing his physical strength to the point that he could overpower Kaguya[59]), far higher with Asura Avatar (Absorbed all of the Senjutsu left on the planet and greatly increased his strength. Matched Sasuke's Six Paths Susanoo's Indra's Arrow)

I'm pretty certain this'll already be how it is, but I'd leave SPSM Naruto's justification alone for now, since Shadow is about to post a GT revision that should handle him pretty soon. But yeah, generally speaking, I agree with the Asura Avatar/Super Bijuu RS getting a "far higher" rating above anything Naruto can dish out normally.

I mean it was portrayed as his best option.

I personally just don't see it as such. You could look at it that way I suppose, but I just don't think it's that deep. Naruto just decided he should follow up with a Senjutsu Enhanced Bijuu Bomb, which makes sense since he was in the KA and allat.

AP is the discussion here tho, and Naruto is still a jinchuriki so the statement probably applies to him too

It is an AP discussion, yes, but what I' saying is that not every statement accounts for things that are not necessarily all about AP. Likewise, not every statement is purely about AP in the first place.

Depends on if you consider the Boruto anime version of the fight as part of the statement since he used a Bijuudama there, though anyways it doesn't matter since Bijuu>KA.

I'm uncertain on the anime's canonicity at that point in time, since I'm pretty sure it's only confirmed canon up to a point, but like you said, it kinda doesn't matter much since the manga gives us the same thing in essence.

So then KA>RB in AP

Uhhh, I guess so, yeah.


Anyway, this thread needs more staff evaluations, so Imma tag a few to hopefully get this thread over with.
@LordTracer @Damage3245 @KingTempest @Shadowbokunohero @LordGriffin1000
I'm sorry for the ping guys, but could you please help evaluate this thread. It seems mostly okay to me, but since it's multiplier related, I'd definitely like more opinions on this to make sure it's solid.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Pretty sure I agreed with the RB being 2x earlier in this thread. Not sure about the other techniques mentioned though.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Pretty sure I agreed with the RB being 2x earlier in this thread. Not sure about the other techniques mentioned though.

Yeah, I'm more or less in the same boat as you. Only one I'm sure I agree with is the planetary Rasengan since it's confirmed to be an enhanced version of the RB in the same scan.

 

[KingTempest]

Uchussy Slussy 69 has returned to coccslap

But yeah you share my views on the topic

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Yeah, I'm more or less in the same boat as you. Only one I'm sure I agree with is the planetary Rasengan since it's confirmed to be an enhanced version of the RB in the same scan.

That's fair.

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah, I'm more or less in the same boat as you. Only one I'm sure I agree with is the planetary Rasengan since it's confirmed to be an enhanced version of the RB in the same scan.

I'm in agreement with this. I don't think it should extend to his other techniques.

 

[Nierre]

For what it's worth, I also agree with you guys.

 

[LordTracer]

Yeah, I’m pretty much in agreement with y’all as well.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

US agreed with KA and Bijuudama being stronger so do the other staff agree with that at least?

It might be, assuming you can manage to scale the RS above the RB in terms of power-scaling, but the point is that the RS would not have a multiplier of its own in isolation, if that makes sense. A minor distinction, but an important one on principle.

Suuuuure?

Fair on the sensing point. I guess as a perfect Sage, Shima would be able to sense the attacks' power just fine. I kinda forgot that she can sense shit normally, and assumed it was just one of those cases of characters "sensing" incredibly strong chakra, even without being actual sensory types. You know what I mean with that, it happens a lot. Anyway, I digress.
Uhhh, so this is where you kinda might start to lose me. I thought we agreed that the multiplier was only a thing due to the counter rotations specifically. This is the conclusion I came to from the scans provided, as well as your and Nierre's arguments that I saw. If you're actually arguing that the 2x amp is there because "well, it's 2 Rasengans lol", then I'm going to have to disagree with this whole thing because it's explicitly against the wiki's multiplier rules.
Assuming we agree that it's just the former, then I have to say that, once again, the chakra volume shouldn't even be a factor here.

The RB gets the amp because the two Rasengans combine and enhance their power, which wouldn't necessarily happen if you're just hitting 2 Rasengan at separate places, but the chakra of the 2 before hitting separate places is twice as strong as one, meaning RS has more than the combined power of 2 Rasengans. I also don't see why Shima couldn't sense the clashing impact of the RB.

The thing is that the RS that hit the Human Path was kinda unique, as in we literally never saw it again (outside of the one that hit Juubidara, but that one was the Lava variant, which I'm not sure would still have the microscopic mini wind blades). It expands horizontally and cuts like a giant circular disc, whereas the standard RS expansion is like a spherical explosion. I think it should be quite clear why the one that hit the Human Path would create the shearing effect, while the others wouldn't necessarily. Furthermore, the comparison with the RB is kinda flawed to begin with cause that attack doesn't deal damage in a similar way, it's more of a blunt force rotation effect rather than a cutting attack. So at the end of the day we're comparing apples to oranges here, as the attacks wouldn't deal the same kind of damage anyway, regardless of which one is actually stronger.

But if the RB had more power, regardless of different styles of attacks, wouldn't it have blown a hole in the Animal Path's stomach? The big difference regardless of style is that one attack broke through muscles and bones while one barely through skin.

I'm pretty certain this'll already be how it is, but I'd leave SPSM Naruto's justification alone for now, since Shadow is about to post a GT revision that should handle him pretty soon. But yeah, generally speaking, I agree with the Asura Avatar/Super Bijuu RS getting a "far higher" rating above anything Naruto can dish out normally.

What about the usage of the phrase "stronger Rasengan variants" for Naruto in general, not just SPSM?

I'm uncertain on the anime's canonicity at that point in time, since I'm pretty sure it's only confirmed canon up to a point, but like you said, it kinda doesn't matter much since the manga gives us the same thing in essence.

Uhhh, I guess so, yeah.

W

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Bump

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Bump

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Bump

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

So rn it's agreed that techniques with statements placing them above RB are fine to scale above it? Aka Planetary Rasengan and Super Tailed Beast RS?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

KA and Bijuudama should be there too as KA is Naruto going all out and Bijuudama scales above it

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Oh brother

 

[SlendVeny]

The elites fear our multiplier

 

[SlendVeny]

BUMP

 

[MinatoSparkle]

So considering the God Tier CRT ig this has been soft accepted?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I just deadass took only the stuff from here that was accepted lol

 

[MinatoSparkle]

And Slayer talked about the KA scaling above everything else in Naruto's arsenal

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Yeah that wasn’t accepted so I didn’t use it, plus rn we treat that once Nard gets his KCM2 cloak that his cloak power = KA

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Yeah that wasn’t accepted so I didn’t use it, plus rn we treat that once Nard gets his KCM2 cloak that his cloak power = KA

I mean it's literally stated that the KA is him going all out, that's pretty blatant

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Naruto can use Rasenshuriken and jutsu and whatnot in tandem with KA, so going all out doesn't necessitate that his KA be above all his jutsu. But I don't have much stake in this debate, so if staff vote that KA > STBRS, RB, PR, etc that's cool.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

At the very least, the KA would scale above Chōōdama Rasengan, since Naruto used it against Jigen prior to his statement regarding the KA.

The Chōōdama Rasengan technically doesn't have the 2x multiplier, but it can one-shot people relative to Naruto physically.