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Raiden (Metal Gear) VS Kars

EnnardTrap1987

EnnardTrap1987

2,622
519
Both 8-A

Speed equalised

Raiden is in his cyborg form (not Reveangence Raiden)

Raiden has prior knowledge of Kars's disintegration.

Raiden: 0

Kars: 0

Inconclusive: 0
 
SpookyShadow said:
I don't think anything Kars has would work on Jack
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Raiden has organic parts, in fact Snake even points it out he isnt completely organic and thus he shouldnt go through the oven even if he is mostly robotic as it would still have lethal effects on what little of him is organic.

Kars could probably use hamon to harden his sabers to battle Raiden or hamon would still have an effect if hit point blank, may even be worse for him as metal serves as a great hamon conduit and it can phase through and conduct any stray hamon with ease.

And I dont think Raiden has his suped up weaponary yet if this only Guns of the Patriots version of Raiden.
 
Yeah it's MGS4 Jack

Could Kars' bone blade clash with HF Blade? Jack's HF Blade is still pretty good here and its entire work is to disrupt atoms
 
I wasnt thinking of it clashing with it, I doubt it can, I was thinking of hamon amping it and doing what he did to Stroheim if given the chance. May even allow himself toget bisected as well to land the blow, but unlike Jack, Kars can shrug off getting bisected and torn in half within a second and be fine.
 
no, he could react fast enough to turn into something lightning would have no effect on.
 
I mean, maybe, it'd only be extremely temporary though given how lightning actually paralyzes and Ultimate Kars has the ability freely control his body down to even the cells itself.

Plus there's a few types of weird ass animals that are decently resilient to things like that, ifhe morphs to something like that he can mitigate the effects by quite a bit.
 
Now I change my statement, if Jack has anything to affect Kars with

This is his original Patriots cyborg body so first enhancements and doesn't have as many amps as later, and Kars seem to have quite fast regen

Maybe throwing him to space with Class G lifting strength
 
tbh I dont think he can overcome Kars regen actually.

>throwing to space.

Ya know,maybe? I'd have to check if that's strong enough to throw like 105kg 1000km.
 
Jonathan is 105kg so I'm just assuming he's about the same. Although you may actually be right, he'd be closer to Wham, who does have an offiial weight, of 115kg.
 
Fiction logic man. Dude looks three times bigger than me and im 80 ffs

Maybe it's only me but Ultimate Kars feels like he's a bit bigger than normal Kars lol
 
ExSENNA said:
Fiction logic man. Dude looks three times bigger than me and im 80 ffs
Maybe it's only me but Ultimate Kars feels like he's a bit bigger than normal Kars lol
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It might just be his luxurious flowing mane giving off the appearance
 
To be fair, JoJo characters have like, 0 fat. They're probably like 95% muscle to 5% fat ratio. So all that weight is mostly muscle (not exactly healthy, 20% fat to muscle would be a better ratio if youre gonna body build unless youre bulking but I doubt Kars gives a shit about that).
 
Chariot190 said:
To be fair, JoJo characters have like, 0 fat. They're probably like 95% muscle to 5% fat ratio. So all that weight is mostly muscle (not exactly healthy, 20% fat to muscle would be a better ratio if youre gonna body build unless youre bulking but I doubt Kars gives a shit about that).
Click to expand...
I'd chalk it up to the Pillarmen's insane body control, but Jonathan, Joseph, and Jotaro have similar physiques so...
 
Jonathan, Joseph and Jotaro actually dont. Jonathan is canonically bigger than all three, if I recall he's 105kg, Joseph is 97kg and Jotaro 82kg.

All are extremely jacked but Jonathan is giga super buff while Joseph is just normal super buff and Jotaro is jacked but he's more toned.
 
Chariot190 said:
Jonathan, Joseph and Jotaro actually dont. Jonathan is canonically bigger than all three, if I recall he's 105kg, Joseph is 97kg and Jotaro 82kg.
All are extremely jacked but Jonathan is giga super buff while Joseph is just normal super buff and Jotaro is jacked but he's more toned.
Click to expand...
The one thing my favorite JoJo has over the others of the trilogy: he's a big boi ovo
 
Kinda, dude is ******* massive, not even due to the artstyle but his buffness has been actually pointed out in the manga.
 
A-are we just gonna ignore the fact that Kars' 8-A status comes from a statement about his Hamon (not even his strength, just his hamon) is hundreds of times stronger than a 8-C? How is that an acceptable justification for a tier? At best it would be a justification for "At least 8-C, likely 8-A with Hamon", and even then it would mean applying a multiplier from a random, likely hyperbolic, statement (also, he needed armor to survive some lava, just sayin'...)
 
Ignoring the fact that Hamon has been shown at least a dozen times to increase the user's physical attributes the more Hamon they have directly, with a direct correlation between hamon and strength/durability. The most blatant example is Jonathan who got Will's Hamon and proceeded to multiply his power 5x over (Went from being 5x weaker than Dio to being equal to him), but that applies and is confirmed by the existence of Pillar Man in general, Joseph needed more Hamon to increase his stats as well as the potency of his Hamon to even harm the Pillar Men because intially, his Hamon and blows couldnt even harm Santana.

Hyperbolic? The statement comes from a reliable source (And is supported seconds later by a nonbiased source, even if we ignore the fact it proceeds to vaporize a 8-C) and is confirmed elsewhere if there was any doubt to begin with, so no, it isnt hyperbolic, it's literal.

Randomly applying a multiplier? We use multipliers all the time as long as we're given a concrete number and we have no reason to believe it's wrong, see All-Might and Kaioken, both of which effect tiers (and even speed in the case of Kaioken) because of multiplication statements. Likely would only be applied if Kars was only stated to be much stronger or omething, but we're given a number and isnt contradicted (but rather even supported).

>actually uses lava as a counterpoint.

Ignoring the fact that happened before Kars started using Hamon so your point is moot, he also tanks a several hundred meter explosion point-blank within the same chapter, then not much later tanks hypersonic boulders to the face. Lava being overestimated by authors is common, unless you mean to tell me Goku is only wall level for being harmed by lava? Or Baby (GT) is only 8-A for dying to the heat of the sun?
 
"Ignoring the fact that Hamon has been shown at least a dozen times to increase the user's physical attributes the more Hamon they have directly"

Exactly what I'm saying, 8-A with Hamo, which boosts strength. Also the 5x multiplier is quite literally made up

"Hyperbolic? The statement comes from a reliable source (And is supported seconds later by a nonbiased source, even if we ignore the fact it proceeds to vaporize a 8-C) and is confirmed elsewhere if there was any doubt to begin with, so no, it isnt hyperbolic, it's literal"''''

Coming from a reliable source doesn't change the fact that said source has no way of actually knowing or gauging Kars' power, and vaporizing a 8-C isn't enough to be considered 8-A. Along the fact that we are taking a vague statement as factual (Kars literally says "IT LOOKS LIKE my hamon is hundreds of times more potent than yours", and all Strohein does is marvel at the statement, neither confirming it nor denying it), using it to multiply a character's strength, we also have the fact that, you know, Joseph survived Kars' hamon, a character surviving an attack that is supposedly hundreds of times stronger than his resistence doesn't really make all that sense now does it?

"Randomly applying a multiplier? We use multipliers all the time as long as we're given a concrete number and we have no reason to believe it's wrong"

Except "hundreds" is extremely vague, and the reason to believe that it's not legit is the fact that Joseph tanked it

"see All-Might and Kaioken, both of which effect tiers (and even speed in the case of Kaioken) because of multiplication statements"

This is a completely different case. With the Kaioken we have numerical and canon proof of it being a multiplier, along with the fact that the multiplier is THE WHOLE POINT OF THE ABILITY, the same goes with All-Might, whereas Kars' is nothing more than a back-handed comment given by a character whose main characteristic is being cocky and acting superior.

"Ignoring the fact that happened before Kars started using Hamon so your point is moot"

Is it tho? Kars was already supposedly far superior to Joseph before SHOWING hamon, also that's the first case when we SEE HIM use hamon, it's not like he only got hamon in that moment, nothing suggests that's the case

"He also tanks a several hundred meter explosion point-blank within the same chapter, then not much later tanks hypersonic boulders to the face"

Several hundred meter explosion? What are you talking about? And he didn't tank any hypersonic boulder, the big boulder was already beneath his feet when it flew off and he was clearly hurt by the few small rocks from the explosion and Joseph's arm even pierced his throat

"Lava being overestimated by authors is common, unless you mean to tell me Goku is only wall level for being harmed by lava? Or Baby (GT) is only 8-A for dying to the heat of the sun?"

I really don't care about neither of those things, we are not talking about Dragonball here, and it being common doesn't change the fact that it counters his resistence
 
>Exactly what I'm saying, 8-A with Hamo, which boosts strength.

Which boosts physical statistics, which makes him 8-A physically. You literally just said that yourself. All Kars has to do is breath to physically match Raiden.

>Also the 5x multiplier is quite literally made up.

Oh ok, so you don't know what you're talking about clearly, maybe don't use words like literally when you're literally wrong. In the manga Will Zeppeli states Dio's energy is 5x him and Jonathan, followed by Speedwagon claiming Dio's power multiplied several times over since he was last seen. Hell it aint even the only time statements like that are made, Lisa Lisa has a canon wog statement in her bio that her power is 3x that of Joseph. And you're right, I went back and double checked, Dio was 5x Jonathan and Will's Hamon combined. So Jonathan went from being 10x weaker to being equal with Dio.

>Coming from a reliable source doesn't change the fact that said source has no way of actually knowing or gauging Kars' power

Pretty sure Kars can gauge his own power given his experience with fighting the exact character he's comparing it to.

>and vaporizing a 8-C isn't enough to be considered 8-A.

It isnt, but you're ignoring the fact it vaporizing a 8-C happens at the exact same time as the hundreds of times statement is made. It isnt enough on its own, but it isnt on its own, it's coupled with an explicit statement (made twice over).

>Along the fact that we are taking a vague statement as factual (Kars literally says "IT LOOKS LIKE my hamon is hundreds of times more potent than yours",

Do you even know what vague means? In case you don't. And no, the actual quote is From the looks of it, I can generate 100s of times more power than you ca.

He's literally saying, judging from the effects of his Hamon on Joseph, his Hamon is 100's of times more powerful, in fact it even explicitly says power.

>and all Strohein does is marvel at the statement, neither confirming it nor denying it), using it to multiply a character's strength

I was talking about how wog states Kars' Hamon is several hundred times more potent. This has nothing to do with character statements, it's an unbiased statement comming from an omniscient source that isn't using any words or terms that would dictate possibility.

>we also have the fact that, you know, Joseph survived Kars' hamon, a character surviving an attack that is supposedly hundreds of times stronger than his resistence doesn't really make all that sense now does it?

It makes plenty of sense, given aoe and surface area, the hamon didnt hit Joseph's entire body now did it? But the little bit it did hit was reduced to ******* vapor. The part of him that was hit didnt survive. It's like expecting a bullet to the leg to kill a normal dude, it wont but he bullet will still destroy the part that was hit. Gonna be honest, you're grasping here.

>Except "hundreds" is extremely vague, and the reason to believe that it's not legit is the fact that Joseph tanked it

Hundreds is only vague in that it could be anywhere from 200-900x more potent. It's still at minimum 200x times the potency. And Joseph didnt tank shit, the part that was hit was vaporized.

>Kars was already supposedly far superior to Joseph before SHOWING hamon, also that's the first case when we SEE HIM use hamon, it's not like he only got hamon in that moment, nothing suggests that's the case

Kars being stronger than Joseph means **** all in relation to the him being hundreds of times above him post Hamon. (Ignoring the fact Kars wasnt far surperior, given Joseph crosscountered and overpowered him at one point). The hell are you on about? He literally did only get Hamon in that moment, he was completely incapable of using Hamon before becoming ultimate and the very first time he used Hamon was when he countered Joseph's kick. Everything suggests that's the case. Even the fact it's the first time we see it confirms it given we were watching Kars from the moment he became ultimate to that very moment and we never see him use it, the fact we never see him use it means he didnt because there wasnt any moment where he would have otherwise.

>This is a completely different case. With the Kaioken we have numerical and canon proof of it being a multiplier, along with the fact that the multiplier is THE WHOLE POINT OF THE ABILITY, the same goes with All-Might, whereas Kars' is nothing more than a back-handed comment given by a character whose main characteristic is being cocky and acting superior.

You can say it's a completely different case,it aint gonna make you right. Ignoring the fact Kars being cocky doesnt make him wrong, he has no reason to grossly exaggerate and in fact he's usually matter of fact even if he's egotistical. But that's pointless given it's literally confirmed by wog. It isnt just Kars making an offhanded statement, it's literally said by Kars it's hudreds of times the potency then confirmed by the author its hundreds of times. And the point of the abilities dont matter, what matters is a that a numerical multiplier was given and it isnt contradicted.

>Several hundred meter explosion? What are you talking about? And he didn't tank any hypersonic boulder, the big boulder was already beneath his feet when it flew off and he was clearly hurt by the few small rocks from the explosion and Joseph's arm even pierced his throat

I'm talking about the ******* massive explosio he takes (For reference the crater is 500 meters across). And yes he did tank hypersonic boulders, was only in the manga though.

The few small rocks failed to pierce him actually, all they did was push him up higher (in the manga they were followed by much larger pieces of debris as well). And Joseph's hand piercing hs throat? Given the speed of that hand yeah, that shit is basically like taking a small meteor to face. Don't forget escape velocity is like mach 30, the fact the hand could overtake debris that were launched at that speed is insane. The KE carried by his hand isnt a counterpoint dude.

>I really don't care about neither of those things, we are not talking about Dragonball here, and it being common doesn't change the fact that it counters his resistence

Missed the point, the point is that it's a common trope that the wiki is well aware of in that most authors overestimate the potency of heat in things like lava and the sun specifically. But if you wnat something more topical, then I guess Solid Snake (And this Raiden being used here, given it was pointed out that he would of taken some damage as well) being damaged and heavily burnt by the microwave hallway means Snake is barely wall level and Raiden is above but not by a drastic amount even if he has other feats that contradict him or Snake being harmed by wall level heat.


Basically all got from this is that you didnt actually pay attention to all the statements made, nor have you actually read the source material given your ignorance to manga only things that were cut from the anime.
 
Half of that is just greentext. Half the time it took was double checking the manga for the exact statements.
 
It only took like 3 minutes though? I know I'm a fast typer but it shouldnt be by that much.
 
Chariot190 said:
Half of that is just greentext. Half the time it took was double checking the manga for the exact statements.
Click to expand...
I think it was worth it. A lot of solid stuff in there, stuff I didn't even remember and I'm currently watching Part 2 in the anime (just started on the Whammu v Joseph fight and I'm trying to appreciate how cool it is instead of struggling through it to see Ultimate Kars like I did the first time)
 
Read it, a lot of shit was cut from the Part 1 and 2 anime. A lot from Part 1 especially like the whole fact Jonathan trained for literal weeks, Wang Chan trying to kill Jonathan mid training but getting hamon'd and escaping (which is how Dio found out about Hamon and decided to train to counter it, it's why he knew about hamon and got the flash freeze move), minor danny backstory, we see how Dio survived the fire, a bunch of random statements involving characters power like Dio's power multiplying due to various things like training and eating flesh, etc.

Part 2 less so, Part 2 is mostly just dialouge cut (although the Joseph going to the mail office after Esidisi was cut but that's ony like two pages).
 
Chariot190 said:
Read it, a lot of shit was cut from the Part 1 and 2 anime. A lot from Part 1 especially like the whole fact Jonathan trained for literal weeks, Wang Chan trying to kill Jonathan mid training but getting hamon'd and escaping (which is how Dio found out about Hamon and decided to train to counter it, it's why he knew about hamon and got the flash freeze move), minor danny backstory, we see how Dio survived the fire, a bunch of random statements involving characters power like Dio's power multiplying due to various things like training and eating flesh, etc.
Part 2 less so, Part 2 is mostly just dialouge cut (although the Joseph going to the mail office after Esidisi was cut but that's ony like two pages).
Click to expand...
Wow, yeah that's def a read for me, a few of those points alone answered some big questions I had about Part 1
 
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