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Puella Magi Verse High 1-B Upgrade

Unqver said:
She traversed layer by layer, and in her eyes, the next layer was just a dot. I think the Japanese just now explained it
Click to expand...
But this is not expressed in the scan.


The "dot" here is not actually a reference to the existence of the layer. The simplest way to understand this is that "as you get closer to the point, the point and the sound coming from it increases."

Do you think that would be the case if she saw it as a point in terms of existence?

The 1D point you draw on paper is not the same as a star that you see as a point from a long distance but gets bigger as you get closer.


Essentially, the situation here is the same as the situation of the star, because she is stated that it gets bigger as she approaches the point.

Moreover, this point situation is not even said for layers rather than a difference, not even an infinite difference is said.

The infinite difference is only expressed for the difference between Madoka and Tethadron

As you get closer to the point, the point grows larger =/= seeing it as a point in terms of existence

Infinite difference between Madoka and Tethadron =/= infinite difference between all layers (And even if that happens it's still not QS)
So reading the High 1-B quote, the main issue to me is that it's very clearly using a Tetrahedron as the object in question, which is just a four sided pyramid. It could mean High 1-B if you want to go with it being some metaphorical thing, but judging by other comments she's going downwards with the starting layer being 4th Dimensional.
Click to expand...
And there is this too. Here, unlike the rare case described by Qawsedf, there is a "falling" that would refute this. Not only that, but many more things

Iamunanimousinthat said:
Okay. If each layer is a timeline, and also uncountably bigger than the next, then that would justify for Hi-B
Click to expand...
Basically they just have being "infinitely bigger" (first scan in OP)

Not uncountable infinity. I explained some of the situations above, but I guess it doesn't matter much. At least in this case.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Okay. But what exactly is each layer? is it a reality?
Click to expand...
It's not well explained but they are like time layers. The tetrahedron is a gateway to a place called the Time Railord, when our protagonist falls into a lower layer, she describes that feels like the scaffolding that supported her in the world had dissapeared in the lower layer. The Time Railord is a realm inside a timeloop which stretches infinitely, from the infinite future to the infinite past and "infinite trains" who can travel to the infinite routes (this meaning that the time railord allows time traveling to the infinite layers of the reality since the time railord have allowed the homo magica to conquer time itself and it's referenced as being similar to a train).
 
Georredannea15 said:
But this is not expressed in the scan.


The "dot" here is not actually a reference to the existence of the layer. The simplest way to understand this is that "as you get closer to the point, the point and the sound coming from it increases."

Do you think that would be the case if she saw it as a point in terms of existence?

The 1D point you draw on paper is not the same as a star that you see as a point from a long distance but gets bigger as you get closer.


Essentially, the situation here is the same as the situation of the star, because she is stated that it gets bigger as she approaches the point.

Moreover, this point situation is not even said for layers rather than a difference, not even an infinite difference is said.

The infinite difference is only expressed for the difference between Madoka and Tethadron

As you get closer to the point, the point grows larger =/= seeing it as a point in terms of existence

Infinite difference between Madoka and Tethadron =/= infinite difference between all layers (And even if that happens it's still not QS)

And there is this too. Here, unlike the rare case described by Qawsedf, there is a "falling" that would refute this. Not only that, but many more things


Basically they just have being "infinitely bigger" (first scan in OP)

Not uncountable infinity. I explained some of the situations above, but I guess it doesn't matter much. At least in this case.
Click to expand...
She wants to descend. Her voice is getting louder and louder because she has already traveled to the bottom of the world
 
Kwk258 said:
Urobuchi Gen once said that Madoka's consciousness can reshape the entire worldview.
The worldview includes a regular tetrahedron.
Click to expand...
It's better to discuss the scaling in another thread, first need to see if the High 1-B cosmology here gets accepted.
 
Shadowbeast said:
It's not well explained but they are like time layers. The tetrahedron is a gateway to a place called the Time Railord, when our protagonist falls into a lower layer, she describes that feels like the scaffolding that supported her in the world had dissapeared in the lower layer. The Time Railord is a realm inside a timeloop which stretches infinitely, from the infinite future to the infinite past and "infinite trains" who can travel to the infinite routes (this meaning that the time railord allows time traveling to the infinite layers of the reality since the time railord have allowed the homo magica to conquer time itself and it's referenced as being similar to a train).
Click to expand...
Based on this, if each layer is uncountably bigger than the next one, then it's H1B if its not, then it's 2A.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Based on this, if each layer is uncountably bigger than the next one, then it's H1B if its not, then it's 2A.
Click to expand...

Unqver said:
【無限に深い点から、正四面体が発生し、無限に遠くへと去っていく】。
わたしの体の各点から、正四面体が成長してくる。【無限に小さかったはずのそれは無限に大きくなり】、わたしを点にする。
What are you talking about?
Click to expand...
Just take a look at what I posted earlier and you'll understand
 
Unqver said:
She wants to descend. Her voice is getting louder and louder because she has already traveled to the bottom of the world
Click to expand...
This is not a QS proof anyway.

If you claim that each layer is a timeline, the fact that this time infinitely repeats with an infinite past and infinite future does not mean a higher dimensional time dimension.

The arguments you present are so independent of each other and without context.

That's why I said it would be 2-A in the first place , because there is no QS, there is no hypertimeline situation that goes on infinitely even if you use the higher-dimensional time dimension argument. If you look at the last temporal dimension thread you will understand.


Even if you claim QS and spatial transcendence, there is still no reference and the comments you make are very different from what is mentioned in the verse.

You are really pressing random buttons right now
 
Georredannea15 said:
This is not a QS proof anyway.

If you claim that each layer is a timeline, the fact that this time infinitely repeats with an infinite past and infinite future does not mean a higher dimensional time dimension.

The arguments you present are so independent of each other and without context.

That's why I said it would be 2-A in the first place , because there is no QS, there is no hypertimeline situation that goes on infinitely even if you use the higher-dimensional time dimension argument. If you look at the last temporal dimension thread you will understand.


Even if you claim QS and spatial transcendence, there is still no reference and the comments you make are very different from what is mentioned in the verse.

You are really pressing random buttons right now
Click to expand...
? What I mean is that the bottom layer contains an infinite timeline, why didn't you even understand this
 
Georredannea15 said:
This is not a QS proof anyway.

If you claim that each layer is a timeline, the fact that this time infinitely repeats with an infinite past and infinite future does not mean a higher dimensional time dimension.

The arguments you present are so independent of each other and without context.

That's why I said it would be 2-A in the first place , because there is no QS, there is no hypertimeline situation that goes on infinitely even if you use the higher-dimensional time dimension argument. If you look at the last temporal dimension thread you will understand.


Even if you claim QS and spatial transcendence, there is still no reference and the comments you make are very different from what is mentioned in the verse.

You are really pressing random buttons right now
Click to expand...
Do you mean you understand this novel better than me?
 
Unqver said:
? What I mean is that the bottom layer contains an infinite timeline, why didn't you even understand this
Click to expand...
So?
It can contain, every layer can contain.

This still does not prove the higher temporal dimension, it means 2-A.


The layering page explains that even a state that continues infinitely from 2-A is still 2-A. Or infinite number of 2-A, it's still 2-A.
 
Reading through this thread, neutral regarding High 1-B stuff. Much appreciated if someone makes a summarized from both sides of what is being argued, so staff can start evaluating.

As for the OP, you should start counting the votes, the thread is already 7 damn pages long.
 
Georredannea15 said:
So?
It can contain, every layer can contain.

This still does not prove the higher temporal dimension, it means 2-A.


The layering page explains that even a state that continues infinitely from 2-A is still 2-A. Or infinite number of 2-A, it's still 2-A.
Click to expand...
What are you talking about? The bottom layer is just a point in the eyes of the upper layer, and the bottom layer contains an infinite timeline. In the upper layer, it is just a point, which I have repeatedly emphasized
 
Georredannea15 said:
So?
It can contain, every layer can contain.

This still does not prove the higher temporal dimension, it means 2-A.


The layering page explains that even a state that continues infinitely from 2-A is still 2-A. Or infinite number of 2-A, it's still 2-A.
Click to expand...
This is becoming ad naseum. It has been accurately established that there exists layers, these layers are infinite, these layers have substance (universe/timelines/infinite timlines/etc), and that these layers have an hierachy of size.

Post your argument why you don't think it it counts as being uncountably infinite and let others make their decision. There isn't anything much to argue except semantics and going in circles.
 
Unqver said:
What are you talking about? The bottom layer is just a point in the eyes of the upper layer, and the bottom layer contains an infinite timeline. In the upper layer, it is just a point, which I have repeatedly emphasized
Click to expand...
Can you stop with that "dot" nonsense?

Because what is mentioned here is not seeing as a point due to a state of existence.

Stop interpreting these statements outside the context of the verse.

The "dot" here is not actually a reference to the existence of the layer. The simplest way to understand this is that "as you get closer to the point, the point and the sound coming from it increases."

Do you think that would be the case if she saw it as a point in terms of existence?

The 1D point you draw on paper is not the same as a star that you see as a point from a long distance but gets bigger as you get closer.


Essentially, the situation here is the same as the situation of the star, because she is stated that it gets bigger as she approaches the point.
Click to expand...

I also quoted from DT but that dot, dash or bubble nonsense won't give you QS either.
 
Georredannea15 said:
Can you stop with that "dot" nonsense?

Because what is mentioned here is not seeing as a point due to a state of existence.

Stop interpreting these statements outside the context of the verse.



I also quoted from DT but that dot, dash or bubble nonsense won't give you QS either.
Click to expand...
Interestingly, I was refuting you with the original text from the beginning, and you didn't provide any explanation
落下感覚。それを覚える。いままで自分を支えていた足場が突然消える、あのなんともいえない不安でいっぱいになる。
どこに落下するっていうの？ 正四面体のなかへ。【無限の階層】をいつまでも落ち続けている。
【無限に深い点から、正四面体が発生し、無限に遠くへと去っていく】。
わたしの体の各点から、正四面体が成長してくる。【無限に小さかったはずのそれは無限に大きくなり】、わたしを点にする。
 
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Iamunanimousinthat said:
This is becoming ad naseum. It has been accurately established that there exists layers, these layers are infinite, these layers have substance (universe/timelines/infinite timlines/etc), and that these layers have an hierachy of size.
Click to expand...
Can you read the OP and the entire discussion? Anyway... At the very beginning, it is stated that this structure is 4-dimensional and there is an infinite regression down in the 4th dimension, then Madoka's body rises at the same level and this brings about a uniqueness. In short, all of these things are already happening place within the 4-dimensional structure.
So reading the High 1-B quote, the main issue to me is that it's very clearly using a Tetrahedron as the object in question, which is just a four sided pyramid. It could mean High 1-B if you want to go with it being some metaphorical thing, but judging by other comments she's going downwards with the starting layer being 4th Dimensional.
Click to expand...
What they call the "point difference" between each layer does not mean that each layer sees each other as small as a point.

As you approach this point, the point becomes larger and the sound coming from there increases. This has nothing to do with layers and is unfounded, and also "the fact that the point gets bigger as you get closer to the point means that it is not a point in the sense of existence."
The 1D point you draw on paper is not the same as a star that you see as a point from a long distance gets bigger as you get closer.
Click to expand...

Apart from that, what they call "the infinite difference between the layers" is actually the difference between Madoka and Tethadron... There is still no reference for the difference between the layers.

As you get closer to the point, the point grows larger =/= seeing it as a point in terms of existence

Infinite difference between Madoka and Tethadron =/= infinite difference between all layers (And even if that happens it's still not QS)
Click to expand...
As for time, we just revised that and the statements they made basically do not prove the higher dimensional temporal dimension at all.

Past, future and time itself are already infinite by default. Repeating it infinitely won't change anything.
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Post your argument why you don't think it it counts as being uncountably infinite and let others make their decision. There isn't anything much to argue except semantics and going in circles.
Click to expand...
Basically, if we put aside the misinterpretations they made above, what they have is that the infinite layers within 4-D structure go down infinitely and rise infinitely the difference is infinite (yes, it is directly stated that it is a 4D structure).

This is not a QS proof, no.

At the very beginning, it is directly stated these are happenin within a 4-dimensional structure. Here they are trying something extremely strange and rare like "H1-B in a 4-dimensional structure."

Accepting this far-fetched and rare possibility, with such incomplete context and statements, and incorrect and questionable interpretations/assumptions, would probably be the most unhealthy and wrong thing to do here.
 
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Georredannea15 said:
Can you read the OP and the entire discussion? Anyway... At the very beginning, it is stated that this structure is 4-dimensional and there is an infinite regression down in the 4th dimension, then Madoka's body rises at the same level and this brings about a uniqueness. In short, all of these things are already happening place within the 4-dimensional structure.

What they call the "point difference" between each layer does not mean that each layer sees each other as small as a point.

As you approach this point, the point becomes larger and the sound coming from there increases. This has nothing to do with layers and is unfounded, and "the fact that the point gets bigger as you get closer to the point means that it is not a point in the sense of existence."


Apart from that, what they call "the infinite difference between the layers" is actually the difference between Madoka and Tethadron... There is still no reference for the difference between the layers.


As for time, we just revised that and the statements they made basically do not prove the higher dimensional temporal dimension at all.

Past, future and time itself are already infinite by default. Repeating it infinitely won't change anything.

Basically, if we put aside the misinterpretations they made above, what they have is that the infinite layers within 4-D structure go down infinitely and rise infinitely the difference is infinite (yes, it is directly stated that it is a 4D structure).

This is not a QS proof, no.

At the very beginning, it is directly stated these are happenin within a 4-dimensional structure. Here they are trying something extremely strange and rare like "H1-B in a 4-dimensional structure."

Accepting this far-fetched and rare possibility, with such incomplete context and statements, and incorrect and questionable interpretations/assumptions, would probably be the most unhealthy and wrong thing to do here.
Click to expand...
She felt that it was because she had reached the bottom level. Can't she hear any sound when landing in a world? Why can't the four dimensions have an infinite hierarchical structure? I would like to use a sentence from Chinese novels to criticize it
大千世界，无奇不有，光怪离奇

And it's ridiculous that there is no such thing as an increase in the original text, only a decrease
 
Unqver said:
She felt that it was because she had reached the bottom level. Can't she hear any sound when landing in a world? Why can't the four dimensions have an infinite hierarchical structure? I would like to use a sentence from Chinese novels to criticize it
大千世界，无奇不有，光怪离奇
Click to expand...
At this point it's just ad nauseum making the thread larger, let's just wait further staff input here to see what we can get.
 
Jinsye said:
Null Magical Girl is a really weird and messy story that barely fits within the world of PMMM but I took a read through it to try and make some sense of it.

Trying to cut out everything besides the tiers stuff, the main quote is this.



So, from this quote. It's pretty clear that the tetrahedron is some kind of a 'gateway' to this train station, also known as the Time Railroad. Eruna refers to the tetrahedron as the 'ticket' into the time railroad so to speak.

Once she properly folds it, she starts to fall through reality itself, as dictated by the 'scaffolding', and once she finishes she reaches the Time Railroad. This Railroad is used as a transportation method throughout all of time.


Now, what is the Time Railroad exactly? It's kind of really vague and unclear, but from what we can get from the novel, it seems to be a system built by Homo magica (the evolved version of magical girls) that underlies all of time.


So, all of these points in the timeline are connected through reality via the Time Railroad that Homo magica have built. This time railroad stretches along infinitely, with infinite paths into the future and the past.


Note the "infinite trains with infinite routes", which is what I believe to be the author trying to express how the structure under the train can go through all of the infinite layers of reality. After all, this system underlies an infinite set of layers that underlie reality it seems, so it makes sense that a train that can travel through all of time could travel through every layer of reality.

At some point, Kosane (the main protagonist) undergoes an explosion that allows her to "fuse with the time railroad", and allows her to access every single point in time at once.


Here, it says she escapes the grasp of the three-dimensional world. Not necessarily High 1-B, but it's evidence that the time railroad is beyond our normal reality.

So it's my belief that the Time Railroad underlies all of reality as 'time' (or the 4th dimension so to speak), but the overall size of 'time' is much larger than 4-D in a way. As entering into the time railroad causes one to fall through an infinite amount of layers of reality. The time railroad is then noted to have an infinite amount of routes and infinite amount of trains, which is equivalent to the infinite layers required to get to the time railroad in the first place. This means there's an infinite amount of 'time layers' so to speak. Which can be construed as High 1-B.

This is all my interpretation though. I'd recommend you read Null Magical Girl yourself if you want an informed opinion, it's only 170 pages and has an English translation available with a short google. I don't have a strong opinion on the tiering itself, but I was just hoping that maybe my interpretation could provide some clarity.
Click to expand...
This is the interpretation that the supporters seem to agree on at least, and what people are arguing against in general.
 
Shadowbeast said:
Put that in the first page of the CRT, where you explain your suggestions @Unqver ☕
Click to expand...
I'll add my hat in for agree side. Madoka is the apex of her series, with Kyubey describing her potential powers as something that's not even theoretically possible. She creates a change to the entire infinite multiverse of her series by completely destroying and remaking them, which is 2-A by itself. What's more, in MagiReco she can view the entire multiverse of her series as a set of infinite records, which would qualify her for the reality-fiction transcendance, making her at least low 1-C. This just seems like a further extension of the that Madoka is beyond what should theoretically be possible.
 
Unqver said:
She felt that it was because she had reached the bottom level. Can't she hear any sound when landing in a world? Why can't the four dimensions have an infinite hierarchical structure? I would like to use a sentence from Chinese novels to criticize it
大千世界，无奇不有，光怪离奇
Click to expand...
What you are saying is a very, very rare and extreme situation.


This becomes a much more extreme and unfounded situation, considering the contexts and inadequate statements that you interpreted incorrectly and suspiciously, went outside the verse. DC rose to this shape because it already had H1-C and many contexts, which is basically not exist here.

And yes, you are very misinterpreting the dot situation
Unqver said:
And it's ridiculous that there is no such thing as an increase in the original text, only a decrease
Click to expand...
This is the situation man, that's what Qawsedf meant in the situation I quoted from Qawsedf.

Edit : I'm going to sleep, take care of yourself guys.
 
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Leafbladie said:
I'll add my hat in for agree side. Madoka is the apex of her series, with Kyubey describing her potential powers as something that's not even theoretically possible. She creates a change to the entire infinite multiverse of her series by completely destroying and remaking them, which is 2-A by itself. What's more, in MagiReco she can view the entire multiverse of hers as a set of infinite records, which would qualify her for the reality-fiction transcendance, making her at least low 1-C. This just further bolsters the idea that Madoka is beyond what should theoretically be possible.
Click to expand...
Null Magical girl should be one of the infinite Records
 
Leafbladie said:
I'll add my hat in for agree side. Madoka is the apex of her series, with Kyubey describing her potential powers as something that's not even theoretically possible. She creates a change to the entire infinite multiverse of her series by completely destroying and remaking them, which is 2-A by itself. What's more, in MagiReco she can view the entire multiverse of hers as a set of infinite records, which would qualify her for the reality-fiction transcendance, making her at least low 1-C. This just further bolsters the idea that Madoka is beyond what should theoretically be possible.
Click to expand...
Yeah, we thought that the scaling should be leaved for another thread as this one is a already too huge upgrade (and full of controversy lol) for the cosmology of the series, it's better to do one step at a time.
 
Shadowbeast said:
Yeah, we thought that the scaling should be leaved for another thread as this one is a already too huge upgrade (and full of controversy lol) for the cosmology of the series, it's better to do one step at a time.
Click to expand...
Also, shouldn't the divine envoys Momoe Nagisa and Sayaka be granted omniscience and omnipotence?
04af7516f9e5686e.jpg
 
Unqver said:
Also, shouldn't the divine envoys Momoe Nagisa and Sayaka be granted omniscience and omnipotence?
04af7516f9e5686e.jpg
Click to expand...
Probably not, they just said they were holding onto Madoka's memories, which keeps her disconnected from the Law of Cycles. If Madoka remembers she's part of the Law of Cycles then she automatically joins back up with it, we see this in Homura's new reality.
 
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