Proposal for a Nonexistent Physiology Revision

[Theglassman12]

Ant, DT has updated the results of the thread in his OP. If you read the very bottom he says this with the updated rework on Nonexistent physiology.

 

[DontTalkDT]

So for conceptual nonexistence, this will be broken down based on the type of concept they lack? Like, if a verse only shows Concept Manip type 2, it will only be Conceptual Nonexistence for Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation?

Pretty much. For basically the same reason resisting Type 2 concept manip isn't assumed to protect you from type 1.

2. Well i think you should put a note on NEP page about this, people need to know how to insert the ability in the character profile before they do anything. I don't want something like Conceptual Manip where many profile have it listed but no type at all lol, or people mess up with the description

Once the draft is decided I will edit the Users section to have the corresponding format, so that people can take it from those examples. Or do you think an additional section explaining the formatting is necessary? If so, I can include that too.

3. Ah yes about Void, currently have true Void of Nothingess body qualify for Type 1 Material Nonexistent, and Void Manipulation is currently a textbook evidences for NEP1, character who can interact with void or have void manip considered to be able to interact, affect NEP1 character. So with the new NEP, what happen to Void

You mean a character that just is a void? Well, that isn't much different from being a vacuum. It will usually pass the physically nonexistence part, however to get NEP you would now also need to be nonexistent in some other aspect.

Such characters are why my original draft had the physical nonexistence type, but as people rightfully pointed out being a void on just the physical level is just incorporeality. Hence I removed that aspect of nonexistence and made it a requirement instead. So a character only a void on the physical level would just get Incorporeality not NEP. If the void can be proven more fundamental nothingness than just physically it can qualify in some way though (due to the Others type, if not otherwise)

I have a question, if someone’s just stated to not exist at all, does that give them Material nonexistence by default?

Let's say that it is a strong indicator towards being physically nonexistent, although in fiction it isn't always the case. Note that in the new draft (the one at the bottom of the original post) Material nonexistence is a requirement rather than a type, as multiple people were in favour of material nonexistence alone just being incorporeality.

It significantly helps our staff to help out in turn if they are provided easy to understand summaries. Otherwise they will usually not consider the evaluation process sufficiently important to waste lots of time and energy on. As such, I recurrently get a bit frustrated when other members refuse to collaborate with me in this regard.

The summary of the current proposal is the updated draft found at the bottom of the original post. So this one:

Nonexistent Physiology​

Summary​

Nonexistent Physiology refers to the ability to lack certain aspects of ones existence, to paradoxically 'exist', yet lack certain identifiable traits of existence, or exist outside of a particular scope of 'existence'. While true nonexistence in the philosophical sense is impossible to prove, lesser forms of the idea appear often in fiction.

Characters of this nature often exist as something beyond the normal scope of the physical and metaphysical worlds and instead exist as an idea or other unconventional state. Examples of possible portrayals include, but are not limited to, existing in a state of a being prior to being born in any form or as a character who has been a victim of Existence Erasure, yet can still act and think in some way. Some existing beings can return to their state of non-existence as their "true self", although that is frequently more akin to a state of inactivity or death, in which case their existential self is closer to the individual itself than their original form is. Note that characters who meet these examples still need to fulfil the other requirements listed here.

The physical body of every character with this ability has to be nonexistent. That means that users always are incorporeal, unless maybe they physically qualify for Paradoxical Nonexistence. That means that robots or similar don't qualify for spiritual or mental nonexistence, as they physically exist. Incorporeality alone, however, is not enough. The character has to additionally have at least one combination of the following types:

Types​

Nature of Nothingness​

In which fashion characters are nonexistent in the aspects in which they are:

1. Material Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a conventional sense. In terms of binary, this would be a 0, where existence is 1 and nonexistence is 0. In simple terms that means that the characters simply lack the aspect, in the same way that a stone lacks a soul.
2. Idealistic Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a sense further beyond conventional nonexistence. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence. Characters of this type often have some low degree of Transduality due to their lack of binary existence. Characters of this type have to behave at least as nonexistent as those with Material Nonexistence, but might display even further showings such as preceding or opposing existence.
3. Paradoxical Nonexistence: Characters still exist, but paradoxically behave as if they don't when attacked. Equivalently, characters qualify which don't exist, but behave as if they do in some aspect other than their interaction with attacks and abilities. To qualify for this type, a character needs to be stated to be immune to manipulations of the aspects they are nonexistent in due to their nonexistence. An example of that would be a character who is able to think, and hence has a mind, but is stated to be immune to regular mind manipulation as said mind is paradoxically nonexistent in nature. The character doesn't necessarily behave exclusively nonexistent in regard to attacks, but that is the only requirement necessary to gain this type. In terms of binary, where existence is 1 and nonexistence is 0, this would be part 0 and part 1 simultaneously.

Aspects of Nonexistence​

Which aspects the characters are nonexistent in:

1. Spiritual Nonexistence: These are characters whose soul and/or astral body is nonexistent. They are hence immune to regular Soul Manipulation.
2. Conceptual Nonexistence: These are characters for which one or multiple concepts, that are necessary for their own existence, are nonexistent. They are hence immune to regular manipulation of said concept(s). Which type of concept should be mentioned on the profile.
3. Mental Nonexistence: These are characters whose mind is nonexistent. Characters with this type are hence immune to regular Mind Manipulation and related abilities.
4. Information Nonexistence: These characters whose information are nonexistent. These refers strictly to the type of information that shape reality. (Note: it's agreed that info manip will get types soon, which will make this clearer) They are hence immune to regular Information Manipulation.
5. Other: These characters lack some other fundamental aspect that would be necessary for a normal being's existence or have a nonexistent one. Examples would include things like lacking a history. They are hence immune to abilities that target that respective aspect. Which aspect should be mentioned on the profile, together with any detail regarding what it makes them immune to.

Note: It are the aspects in which a character is not nonexistent in the common sense, which makes them into a 'living' character. As such, if a character with this power is reduced to a state in which it can't display any properties of something that exists (e.g. becomes unable to take any actions), it is effectively dead/erased. A consequence of that is that it requires feats or special reasoning for a character with this ability to survive the complete erasure of their plane of existence, as one needs to confirm that they are able to still display some existent properties on a different plane of existence.

I guess in addition to that I can just give a summary of Q&A of what was asked regarding this proposal:

Will robots or other users of Inorganic Physiology Type 2 automatically get NEP now?​

No. As the physical body of a character has to be nonexistent one can't simultaneously have inorganic physiology and NEP.

Does a character that is a living void get NEP?​

It was agreed that not existing at only a physical level is just incorporeality. As such, a living void needs to demonstrate to be more nonexisting than just lacking a physical body. That means it must demonstrate either also being nonexistent in soul, mind, concept, information or some other aspect beyond just the basic physical one. In the latter case, it would get Aspect Type 5 (Other).

There are two different lists of types now. How does that work?​

There are two different types: The nature of Nothingness and the Aspects of Nonexistence. The nature of nothingness describes in which way a character is nonexistent. The Aspects of Nonexistence describe which parts of the character demonstrated being nonexistent. In practice, a character with NEP would always have at least one Nature of Nothingness Type and at least one Aspect of Nonexistence Type. However, more are always possible.

The currently favored formatting for putting the Types on the profiles is: "Nonexistence Physiology (Nature Type [list of type numbers], Aspect Type [list of aspect numbers], [Additional Explanations if necessary])".

E.g. "Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 1, Aspect Type 5, Doesn't exist physically and also doesn't exist from a probability perspective)"

How would characters in the current system convert to the new one?​

Characters that currently have NEP Type 1 would get Nature Type 1 or (very rarely) 3. Characters that are currently NEP Type 2 would get Nature Type 2 and, presumably, Aspect Type 2 (Conceptual). Often additional types would get added on top of that.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

So M wouldn't be nonexistent in the new system then? He is nothingness, but if it requires him not having something else in addition to that, only thing i can think of is that he has no emotions.

To explain, Sharnoth, an eternal infinite world of darkness, which he rules, is but an extension of himself. Sharnoth has absolutely nothing, it has no color, sound, and even time itself. Everything is all black, no sound can be heard and time does not exist there, thus nothing passes by there nor does any change occur in humans present in it. Because he felt nothing, Sharnoth, reflects this nothingness as it is an extension of M. It is only when M felt emotions again in a long time since does Sharnoth reflect this change by being bathed in light.

M is also someone that is akin to an illusion who is there yet not there, and is also an Old One. An illusion, a formless metaphysical/conceptual entity that embodies the element of Black that makes up part of the universe alongside time and space, and whose own existence is beyond the scope of other illusions and metaphysical entities like the other Old Ones who are formless incarnations of nature, beings who are not real but merely illusions dreamt up by humanity.

Anyway the proposed changes look fine to me.

 

[DontTalkDT]

So M wouldn't be nonexistent in the new system then? He is nothingness, but if it requires him not having something else in addition to that, only thing i can think of is that he has no emotions.

To explain, Sharnoth, an eternal infinite world of darkness, which he rules, is but an extension of himself. Sharnoth has absolutely nothing, it has no color, sound, and even time itself. Everything is all black, no sound can be heard and time does not exist there, thus nothing passes by there nor does any change occur in humans present in it. Because he felt nothing, Sharnoth, reflects this nothingness as it is an extension of M. It is only when M felt emotions again in a long time since does Sharnoth reflect this change by being bathed in light.

M is also someone that is akin to an illusion who is there yet not there, and is also an Old One. An illusion, a formless metaphysical/conceptual entity that embodies the element of Black that makes up part of the universe alongside time and space, and whose own existence is beyond the scope of other illusions and metaphysical entities like the other Old Ones who are formless incarnations of nature, beings who are not real but merely illusions dreamt up by humanity.

Anyway the proposed changes look fine to me.

I don't know the verse. If he is a conceptual / illusionary entity in the verse, wouldn't he lack a soul and qualify for Spiritual Nonexistence? Unless he is a case of a conceptual entity with a soul, I suppose. One could argue the temporal nonexistence being an "Other" case, but given what people in this thread argued regarding plot nonexistence I would think that it likely would get evaluated as being acausality instead.

So... If he has a soul I guess he might just be an incorporeal, abstract, acausal entity, but without NEP in the new sense. Not much of a downgrade, I dare say.

Well, like the Masadaverse case it probably is best to talk about the detailed decisions later.

 

[Vietthai96]

I guess in addition to that I can just give a summary of Q&A of what was asked regarding this proposal:

Will robots or other users of Inorganic Physiology Type 2 automatically get NEP now?​

No. As the physical body of a character has to be nonexistent one can't simultaneously have inorganic physiology and NEP.

Does a character that is a living void get NEP?​

It was agreed that not existing at only a physical level is just incorporeality. As such, a living void needs to demonstrate to be more nonexisting than just lacking a physical body. That means it must demonstrate either also being nonexistent in soul, mind, concept, information or some other aspect beyond just the basic physical one. In the latter case, it would get Aspect Type 5 (Other).

There are two different lists of types now. How does that work?​

There are two different types: The nature of Nothingness and the Aspects of Nonexistence. The nature of nothingness describes in which way a character is nonexistent. The Aspects of Nonexistence describe which parts of the character demonstrated being nonexistent. In practice, a character with NEP would always have at least one Nature of Nothingness Type and at least one Aspect of Nonexistence Type. However, more are always possible.

The currently favored formatting for putting the Types on the profiles is: "Nonexistence Physiology (Nature Type [list of type numbers], Aspect Type [list of aspect numbers], [Additional Explanations if necessary])".

E.g. "Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 1, Aspect Type 5, Doesn't exist physically and also doesn't exist from a probability perspective)"

How would characters in the current system convert to the new one?​

Characters that currently have NEP Type 1 would get Nature Type 1 or (very rarely) 3. Characters that are currently NEP Type 2 would get Nature Type 2 and, presumably, Aspect Type 2 (Conceptual). Often additional types would get added on top of that.

Look freaking good

More question, now void body is not neccessary NEP anymore, back then true void was considered as non existent because, well void of nothingness and people who can interact with void or have void manipulation can interact with Material Nonexist. Now with new NEP, would interact with Void or Void Manipulation still grant the ability/capability to interact with NEP1 anymore???.

Any way sorry bro, for many questions throw at you like that

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@DontTalkDT Nothing is ever mentioned about a soul, he is conceptual entity that makes up one of the 3 fundamentals parts of the universe, that being darkness, the others being time and space. He also predates creation.

Actually Spiritual Nonexistence could make sense, M is said not even be human nor a living being, he is just "Black", that's the only way to classify him, he doesn't even breath, wouldn't really make sense to suggest he has a soul, especially when you add that he is the same as Sharnoth, which has absolutely nothing, and he isn't even real, being an illusion.

 

[Theglassman12]

@DontTalkDT what about a being who’s stated to lose its entire concept of existence? There’s several other things it ends up losing in the process but does that help grant nonexistent physiology?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Look freaking good

More question, now void body is not neccessary NEP anymore, back then true void was considered as non existent because, well void of nothingness and people who can interact with void or have void manipulation can interact with Material Nonexist. Now with new NEP, would interact with Void or Void Manipulation still grant the ability/capability to interact with NEP1 anymore???.

Any way sorry bro, for many questions throw at you like that

Depends on the interaction. If you could mind hax a purely physical void, then that wouldn't help against someone with mental nonexistence.
If you, however, could physically harm a void somehow (via NPI or something) then I guess you could still physically harm someone with NEP. They haven't become more nonexistent in the physical aspect than they have been priorly, after all.

@DontTalkDT what about a being who’s stated to lose its entire concept of existence? There’s several other things it ends up losing in the process but does that help grant nonexistent physiology?

Context could matter here (as it always does, but I like mentioning it every time to cover my back). However, if it physically doesn't exist and the concept qualifies as such by our concept manip page, I would usually think that it sounds like a case of NEP (Nature Type 1; Aspect Type 2). Likely more, as with conceptual erasure other things tend to vanish as well. (Although that, too, depends on context)

 

[Vietthai96]

Depends on the interaction. If you could mind hax a purely physical void, then that wouldn't help against someone with mental nonexistence.
If you, however, could physically harm a void somehow (via NPI or something) then I guess you could still physically harm someone with NEP. They haven't become more nonexistent in the physical aspect than they have been priorly, after all.

Well, no i don't talk about mindhax a nonexistent mind. What i mean is interacting, making contact with Material Nonexistent which is normally considered as non physical interaction. Hax is entirrle different thing

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Last question: If a character who can imbued their attack with void energy or some kind void ability, can they interact with Material Nonexistent?

 

[Bobsican]

Nonexistent Physiology refers to the ability to lack certain aspects of ones existence, to paradoxically 'exist', yet lack any identifiable traits of existence, or exist outside of a particular scope of 'existence'. While true nonexistence in the philosophical sense is impossible to prove, lesser forms of the idea appear often in fiction. Characters of this nature often exist as something beyond the normal scope of the physical and metaphysical worlds, instead existing as an idea or other unconventional state.

Just a minor thing here from what I've noticed.
I'd suggest to reword "yet lack any identifiable traits" to "yet lack certain identifiable traits", namely to futureproof for users that take this word for word and are unecessarily restrictive with the usage of the power for indexing purposes.

In addition, on what scenarios could a character qualify for NEP if they aren't non-corporeal? Sorry if this has been asked before, but if that's the case feel free to just quote a prior post that covers that.

 

[Lapsad]

Need some help what if a characters can turn themselve into imaginary state which aspect they should be ?

 

[Dereck03]

A question, Conceptual Nonexistence from type 2 concepts can be affected by type 1 conceptual manipulation?

 

[Regidian]

How we classify the Swirl of the Root in the new system since it have no correlation with existance nor it can be definied or described and lack all atribute ?

 

[AKM sama]

The proposed changes look good at a glance.

 

[Antvasima]

I also think that this seems fine after more thoroughly overviewing it, but we need more input in order to make certain.

@Promestein @Ultima_Reality @SomebodyData @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou

What do you think about the following post?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/proposal-for-a-nonexistent-physiology-revision.129711/post-4423783

 

[DontTalkDT]

Last question: If a character who can imbued their attack with void energy or some kind void ability, can they interact with Material Nonexistent?

Not necessarily. Nothingness can pass through nothingness and 'void' as some energy type can really be whatever.

Just a minor thing here from what I've noticed.
I'd suggest to reword "yet lack any identifiable traits" to "yet lack certain identifiable traits", namely to futureproof for users that take this word for word and are unecessarily restrictive with the usage of the power for indexing purposes.

In addition, on what scenarios could a character qualify for NEP if they aren't non-corporeal? Sorry if this has been asked before, but if that's the case feel free to just quote a prior post that covers that.

I can update that to certain, yes.

By the new proposal a characters needs to be physically nonexistence in order to qualify. Now, that almost always will mean Incorporeal. The only theoretically possible exception would be a character that is physically nonexistent in a Nature Type 3 fashion i.e. paradoxically nonexistent. In that case they could be semi-incorporeal or something. Still incorporeal in regards to physical attacks, that is the requirement to type 3, but perhaps corporeal in some other situations. Like, maybe they can't go through walls or something. It's a situation I honestly doubt we will encounter, but it's technically there.

Need some help what if a characters can turn themselve into imaginary state which aspect they should be ?

How we classify the Swirl of the Root in the new system since it have no correlation with existance nor it can be definied or described and lack all atribute ?

I would suggest to handle these questions in the follow up thread to this one, where we will deal with revising profiles.

A question, Conceptual Nonexistence from type 2 concepts can be affected by type 1 conceptual manipulation?

Yes. Similar to how we handle Resistance to concept manipulation currently.

 

[Bobsican]

By the new proposal a characters needs to be physically nonexistence in order to qualify. Now, that almost always will mean Incorporeal. The only theoretically possible exception would be a character that is physically nonexistent in a Nature Type 3 fashion i.e. paradoxically nonexistent. In that case they could be semi-incorporeal or something. Still incorporeal in regards to physical attacks, that is the requirement to type 3, but perhaps corporeal in some other situations. Like, maybe they can't go through walls or something. It's a situation I honestly doubt we will encounter, but it's technically there.

Well, a situation exactly like that comes to mind for a verse of mine, but that'll be for another thread either way.
That being said, if that's about the only theoretically plausible case, perhaps it should be fine to mention in a new note or so, as otherwise we'll easily get false positives out of no clear criteria on what's the exception to the non-corporeality requirement.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I will add something, I suppose.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I also think that this seems fine after more thoroughly overviewing it, but we need more input in order to make certain.

@Promestein @Ultima_Reality @SomebodyData @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou

What do you think about the following post?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/proposal-for-a-nonexistent-physiology-revision.129711/post-4423783

Looks alright in my opinion. There are like 2 characters I know that need changing going off this information.

 

[Lapsad]

Q: if a character lacking his own concepts entirely would this be qualify for idealistic NEP ?

 

[Vietthai96]

Q: if a character lacking his own concepts entirely would this be qualify for idealistic NEP ?

In the new system no, i think

 

[ThanatosX]

So, from what I understand a character with NEP (Nature Type 2 or 3; Aspect Type 2) will be resistent or immune to Conceptual Manipulation, but he will be affected by other haxes that don't affect Concepts, like Mind Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, Spatial Manipulation, Time Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, ecc...
Is this correct?

 

[Stocking.exe]

So, from what I understand a character with NEP (Nature Type 2 or 3; Aspect Type 2) will be resistent or immune to Conceptual Manipulation, but he will be affected by other haxes that don't affect Concepts, like Mind Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, Spatial Manipulation, Time Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, ecc...
Is this correct?

I think it will be apply to an ability's resistance of the said concept too

Like hold no concept of fate will grant you resistance to fate hax

 

[Antvasima]

Looks alright in my opinion. There are like 2 characters I know that need changing going off this information.

Thank you for the reply. What do the other staff members here think?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Q: if a character lacking his own concepts entirely would this be qualify for idealistic NEP ?

It would qualify for Conceptual Nonexistence. For idealistic one you have to be nothingness other than simply existing or not existing. Unless the lack of concepts includes the lack of the concept of nothingness, it wouldn't be that per default.

So, from what I understand a character with NEP (Nature Type 2 or 3; Aspect Type 2) will be resistent or immune to Conceptual Manipulation, but he will be affected by other haxes that don't affect Concepts, like Mind Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, Spatial Manipulation, Time Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, ecc...
Is this correct?

Often, but not always, characters with Aspect Type 2 will have others Types of Nonexistence as well. (E.g. abstract entities commonly lack souls)

However, if that is not the case, then they would indeed still be affected by such hax.

I think it will be apply to an ability's resistance of the said concept too

Like hold no concept of fate will grant you resistance to fate hax

Yeah, that would be the case.

Thank you for the reply. What do the other staff members here think?

Here's a summary of what I think the current and former staff positions are.
In favour of the revision / ok with it: LordGriffin1000, AKM sama, DontTalkDT (obviously), Celestial_Pegasus, Antoniofer, Qawsedf234, Theglassman12, Promestein, Elizhaa
Against the revision: -
Neutral: DarkDragonMedeus
Unknown: Ultima_Reality (Disagreed with the initial proposal, but has not given an opinion on the revised proposal yet), QuasiYuri (Said "I don't mind that idea, but it would need to be applied to more stuff to make sense (Regeneration for instance clearly need to divide its godly component instead of mixing them together)." Not sure if I should take that as a disagreement, agreement or just a proposal for revising other things too)

 

[Antoniofer]

I pressume we just need to wait for Ultima and Yuri's response before advancing to the next phase (and thread), am I right? All modifications were applied according to the previous concerns.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Either that or, if they don't wish to give further input, we could also proceed once enough other staff members have agreed, I suppose.

In that spirit, @Ultima_Reality @QuasiYuri want to say anything regarding the reworked proposal or nah?
Let me put it here again, just for clarity:

Nonexistent Physiology​

Summary​

Nonexistent Physiology refers to the ability to lack certain aspects of ones existence, to paradoxically 'exist', yet lack certain identifiable traits of existence, or exist outside of a particular scope of 'existence'. While true nonexistence in the philosophical sense is impossible to prove, lesser forms of the idea appear often in fiction. Characters of this nature often exist as something beyond the normal scope of the physical and metaphysical worlds, instead existing as an idea or other unconventional state.

The physical body of every character with this ability has to be nonexistent. That means that users always are incorporeal, unless maybe they phsyically qualify for Paradoxical Nonexistence. Incorporeality alone, however, is not enough. The character has to additionally have at least one combination of the following types.

Types​

Nature of Nothingness​

In which fashion characters are nonexistent in the aspects in which they are:

1. Material Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a conventional sense. In terms of binary, this would be a 0, where existence is 1 and nonexistence is 0. In simple terms that means that the characters simply lack the aspect, in the same way that a stone lacks a soul.
2. Idealistic Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a sense further beyond conventional nonexistence. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence. Characters of this type often have some low degree of Transduality due to their lack of binary existence. Characters of this type have to behave at least as nonexistent as those with Material Nonexistence, but might display even further showings such as preceding or opposing existence.
3. Paradoxical Nonexistence: Characters still exist, but paradoxically behave as if they don't when attacked. Equivalently, characters qualify which don't exist, but behave as if they do in some aspect other than their interaction with attacks and abilities. To qualify for this type, a character needs to be stated to be immune to manipulations of the aspects they are nonexistent in due to their nonexistence. An example of that would be a character who is able to think, and hence has a mind, but is stated to be immune to regular mind manipulation as said mind is paradoxically nonexistent in nature. The character doesn't necessarily behave exclusively nonexistent in regard to attacks, but that is the only requirement necessary to gain this type. In terms of binary, where existence is 1 and nonexistence is 0, this would be part 0 and part 1 simultaneously.

Aspects of Nonexistence​

Which aspects the characters are nonexistent in:

1. Spiritual Nonexistence: These are characters whose soul and/or astral body is nonexistent. They are hence immune to regular Soul Manipulation.
2. Conceptual Nonexistence: These are characters for which one or multiple concepts, that are necessary for their own existence, are nonexistent. They are hence immune to regular manipulation of said concept(s). Which type of concept should be mentioned on the profile.
3. Mental Nonexistence: These are characters whose mind is nonexistent. Characters with this type are hence immune to regular Mind Manipulation and related abilities.
4. Information Nonexistence: These characters whose information are nonexistent. These refers strictly to the type of information that shape reality. (Note: it's agreed that info manip will get types soon, which will make this clearer) They are hence immune to regular Information Manipulation.
5. Other: These characters lack some other fundamental aspect that would be necessary for a normal being's existence or have a nonexistent one. Examples would include things like lacking a history. They are hence immune to abilities that target that respective aspect. Which aspect should be mentioned on the profile, together with any detail regarding what it makes them immune to.

Note: It are the aspects in which a character is not nonexistent in the common sense, which makes them into a 'living' character. As such, if a character with this power is reduced to a state in which it can't display any properties of something that exists (e.g. becomes unable to take any actions), it is effectively dead/erased. A consequence of that is that it requires feats or special reasoning for a character with this ability to survive the complete erasure of their plane of existence, as one needs to confirm that they are able to still display some existent properties on a different plane of existence.

As well as some questions that were brought up:

I guess in addition to that I can just give a summary of Q&A of what was asked regarding this proposal:

Will robots or other users of Inorganic Physiology Type 2 automatically get NEP now?​

No. As the physical body of a character has to be nonexistent one can't simultaneously have inorganic physiology and NEP.

Does a character that is a living void get NEP?​

It was agreed that not existing at only a physical level is just incorporeality. As such, a living void needs to demonstrate to be more nonexisting than just lacking a physical body. That means it must demonstrate either also being nonexistent in soul, mind, concept, information or some other aspect beyond just the basic physical one. In the latter case, it would get Aspect Type 5 (Other).

There are two different lists of types now. How does that work?​

There are two different types: The nature of Nothingness and the Aspects of Nonexistence. The nature of nothingness describes in which way a character is nonexistent. The Aspects of Nonexistence describe which parts of the character demonstrated being nonexistent. In practice, a character with NEP would always have at least one Nature of Nothingness Type and at least one Aspect of Nonexistence Type. However, more are always possible.

The currently favored formatting for putting the Types on the profiles is: "Nonexistence Physiology (Nature Type [list of type numbers], Aspect Type [list of aspect numbers], [Additional Explanations if necessary])".

E.g. "Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 1, Aspect Type 5, Doesn't exist physically and also doesn't exist from a probability perspective)"

How would characters in the current system convert to the new one?​

Characters that currently have NEP Type 1 would get Nature Type 1 or (very rarely) 3. Characters that are currently NEP Type 2 would get Nature Type 2 and, presumably, Aspect Type 2 (Conceptual). Often additional types would get added on top of that.

 

[Lapsad]

It would qualify for Conceptual Nonexistence. For idealistic one you have to be nothingness other than simply existing or not existing. Unless the lack of concepts includes the lack of the concept of nothingness, it wouldn't be that per default.

Then , doesn't characters that currently have NEP type 2 should changed to nature type 1and type 2 aspect ?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Then , doesn't characters that currently have NEP type 2 should changed to nature type 1and type 2 aspect ?

Characters that currently have NEP Type 2 should fulfil the current requirement of NEP Type 2 (or at least that's what I assume as far as general statements go). Current Type 2 states that characters have the following: "In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence."
That would equate to Nature Type 2. Additionally, it states "The lack of absolutely everything to a state of nonexistence at a conceptual level." which would be Aspect Type 2.
Hence, if they fulfil that definition, they should be Nature Type 2, Aspect Type 2.

If they don't, and are currently ranked wrong, then they can of course also get other types after the revision.
And let me add that I realize that many probably are currently ranked wrong. That's one of the reasons this revision is necessary.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Either that or, if they don't wish to give further input, we could also proceed once enough other staff members have agreed, I suppose.

In that spirit, @Ultima_Reality @QuasiYuri want to say anything regarding the reworked proposal or nah?
Let me put it here again, just for clarity:

As well as some questions that were brought up:

I'm not really sure about "Paradoxal Non-existence". Besides already stating how NEP is paradoxal in the ability summary, it just seems like a portrayal of the two precedents.

Also I think this bit I proposed prior might be relevan to add.

"They are usually portrayed as the state of a being prior to being born in any form, or as a character who has been a victim of Existence Erasure, yet can still act and think in some way. Note that while some existing beings can return to their state of non-existence as their "true self", it usually is more akin to a state of inactivity or death, in which case their existential self is closer to the individual itself than their original form is."

Basically giving a short summary of how one can get NEP as well as having a nuance for cases like Umineko's (where everyone has NEP because they go back to nothingness when they "die" but can somehow still think or dream).

 

[Lapsad]

Characters that currently have NEP Type 2 should fulfil the current requirement of NEP Type 2 (or at least that's what I assume as far as general statements go). Current Type 2 states that characters have the following: "In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence."
That would equate to Nature Type 2. Additionally, it states "The lack of absolutely everything to a state of nonexistence at a conceptual level." which would be Aspect Type 2.
Hence, if they fulfil that definition, they should be Nature Type 2, Aspect Type 2.

If they don't, and are currently ranked wrong, then they can of course also get other types after the revision.
And let me add that I realize that many probably are currently ranked wrong. That's one of the reasons this revision is necessary.

So they do not automatically equated as nature type 2 unless they have been show they are neither exist in those binaries ?

 

[DontTalkDT]

I'm not really sure about "Paradoxal Non-existence". Besides already stating how NEP is paradoxal in the ability summary, it just seems like a portrayal of the two precedents.

It is a relevant distinction both in theory and in practice. To use the example of a nonexistent mind again: A nature type 1 mentally nonexistent character has no mind. It is not sentient and doesn't think. Its mental state is not different from that of a regular rock.

A Nature Type 3 mentaly nonexistent character still thinks, just that the thoughts do not exist in some metaphysical sense. They still display intelligence in their actions.

I dare say it makes a practical difference. A character that can mindhax someone with Nature Type 3 Nonexistent thoughts can, by default at least, not do the same to a character with Nature Type 1 nonexistent mind. They would need to give the thing in question any kind of mind (existent or nature type 3 nonexistent) first before they can do so. It would be like trying to mindhax a rock. Some such characters can no doubt do so, but it would be a hastly generalization to say all.

Also I think this bit I proposed prior might be relevan to add.

"They are usually portrayed as the state of a being prior to being born in any form, or as a character who has been a victim of Existence Erasure, yet can still act and think in some way. Note that while some existing beings can return to their state of non-existence as their "true self", it usually is more akin to a state of inactivity or death, in which case their existential self is closer to the individual itself than their original form is."

Basically giving a short summary of how one can get NEP as well as having a nuance for cases like Umineko's (where everyone has NEP because they go back to nothingness when they "die" but can somehow still think or dream).

That sounds like examples to me. I can include them, although I maybe reformulate it a little to not be confused with requirements or sufficient conditions. That will have to wait for a bit though... Cause I am ob my phone right now and I can't properly edit anything on my phone...

 

[QuasiYuri]

It is a relevant distinction both in theory and in practice. To use the example of a nonexistent mind again: A nature type 1 mentally nonexistent character has no mind. It is not sentient and doesn't think. Its mental state is not different from that of a regular rock.

A Nature Type 3 mentaly nonexistent character still thinks, just that the thoughts do not exist in some metaphysical sense. They still display intelligence in their actions.

I dare say it makes a practical difference. A character that can mindhax someone with Nature Type 3 Nonexistent thoughts can, by default at least, not do the same to a character with Nature Type 1 nonexistent mind. They would need to give the thing in question any kind of mind (existent or nature type 3 nonexistent) first before they can do so. It would be like trying to mindhax a rock. Some such characters can no doubt do so, but it would be a hastly generalization to say all.

In that case it kinda comes back to something I evoked when I first commented.

Wouldn't it means character who are machines with no free will/actual thoughts and the like get NEP just from this fact (and even in the case of clear thoughts, it wouldn't be from an actual "mind").

Same for Spiritual NEP to most sentient objects or characters in verse where everything's physical.

Also while Concept and Info seems fine (although imo it's just a portrayal of the exact same thing), the "Other" category feels odd to me.

The only example is Acausality type 2. I don't think it is necessary to have the exact same ability under two perfectly different powers.
Especially since this example isn't inherently related to the character's own nature, but just on their relationship with another thing (Time).
Besides stuff like "Others" usually end up being a mess of interpretations and headcanons fest.

That sounds like examples to me. I can include them, although I maybe reformulate it a little to not be confused with requirements or sufficient conditions. That will have to wait for a bit though... Cause I am ob my phone right now and I can't properly edit anything on my phone...

Yeah those are just examples I'm proposing to make it more understandable.
There's no hurry for anything.

 

[Vietthai96]

Wait, what about character with Acausality 5, they pratically transcend causality and fate itself thus have none of them

 

[Antoniofer]

It is a relevant distinction both in theory and in practice. To use the example of a nonexistent mind again: A nature type 1 mentally nonexistent character has no mind. It is not sentient and doesn't think. Its mental state is not different from that of a regular rock.

A Nature Type 3 mentaly nonexistent character still thinks, just that the thoughts do not exist in some metaphysical sense. They still display intelligence in their actions.

Would type 3 in this case will be a kin to equivalent of having no mind yet still having a will? The difference is that, despite the creature having no intelligence and personality whatsoever, it still have a great desire to do something and my even be able to communicate.

I feel like every NE character, that could be considered an individual, regardless of nature and type would have a will at the very least, it is what "motivate" their actions; a NE character with no will wouldn't be considered a character and it will be more a kin to a primordial force.

 

[DontTalkDT]

In that case it kinda comes back to something I evoked when I first commented.

Wouldn't it means character who are machines with no free will/actual thoughts and the like get NEP just from this fact (and even in the case of clear thoughts, it wouldn't be from an actual "mind").

Same for Spiritual NEP to most sentient objects or characters in verse where everything's physical.

I believe the Q&A I posted above answers that question. To quote:

Will robots or other users of Inorganic Physiology Type 2 automatically get NEP now?​

No. As the physical body of a character has to be nonexistent one can't simultaneously have inorganic physiology and NEP.

I.e. the ability requires the user to be physically nonexistent and robots or other sentient objects are not physically nonexistent. They exist as physical things and therefore would not receive NEP.
The line in the proposal which clarifies that is: "The physical body of every character with this ability has to be nonexistent. That means that users always are incorporeal, unless maybe they physically qualify for Paradoxical Nonexistence. Incorporeality alone, however, is not enough. The character has to additionally have at least one combination of the following types."

Also while Concept and Info seems fine (although imo it's just a portrayal of the exact same thing), the "Other" category feels odd to me.

The only example is Acausality type 2. I don't think it is necessary to have the exact same ability under two perfectly different powers.
Especially since this example isn't inherently related to the character's own nature, but just on their relationship with another thing (Time).
Besides stuff like "Others" usually end up being a mess of interpretations and headcanons fest.

(If you think Concept and Info are the same things Kawakami-verse would have a word with you)
I admit that the Others section doesn't have great examples, which is because easy to explain general-purpose examples are difficult to come by.
Cases exist that require the type, though. I brought up the Hatou Manabu case in the OP. She has some kind of probability nonexistence. Her verse runs heavily on quantum mechanics and the distinction she makes here is essentially that she isn't/doesn't have a wave function (which could be manipulated within the verse). That isn't really described by another ability (lack of probability is not acausality before anyone brings that up) and squeezing it into some other type doesn't work well either.
Other examples would be verse specific things. E.g. in Kawakami-verse, there is a level of abstraction beyond (Type 1) Concepts. One could try to claim nonexistence on that level is just conceptual nonexistence to a higher degree, but that is ultimately just forcefully squeezing it in somehow.

My experience with "Others" is the opposite to yours. I often see weird hard to equalize things or technicalities that people attempt to forcefully squeeze into one of several types, none of which reflects the circumstances well. And then the weird thing is suddenly equalized with concepts or information, because nobody knew what else to put it as.
It is better to just have them add an explanation to the profiles to explain the situation in such circumstances, and that's what the Others Type enables/encourages.
What headcanons are concerned: Yeah, you could no doubt put a lot of stuff here, but I don't think it will do harm. The "Others" Type has the advantage that it inherently grants nothing. If you want to claim that the Others Type makes you immune to something, you will have to write as much clearly on the profile. And that would of course be subject to CRT's as usual and can be corrected and stuff. It's not easily abused to claim your character can do stuff it didn't demonstrate.

Would type 3 in this case will be a kin to equivalent of having no mind yet still having a will? The difference is that, despite the creature having no intelligence and personality whatsoever, it still have a great desire to do something and my even be able to communicate.

I feel like every NE character, that could be considered an individual, regardless of nature and type would have a will at the very least, it is what "motivate" their actions; a NE character with no will wouldn't be considered a character and it will be more a kin to a primordial force.

I mean "Will" is plenty weird. I would usually see it as still part of the mind.
Type 3 is for characters for which fiction is stupid which fiction declares and treats nonexistent in some part, yet actually still have thought. You know, people who would seem like perfectly normal thinking characters with introspective and everything, but which have statements like "This character's mind is nonexistent. As it doesn't exist at all mind control powers don't work on this characters, because you can't control a mind which doesn't exist." The situation is paradoxical, as the fiction says they have no mind, but shows that they have a mind in other respects. Hence the name of the type.

I don't think all characters need a will. Consider how Notorious Big is usually considered a character, despite being not truly sentient. Fräulein Kretune would be an even weirder example. It depends a lot of how a piece of fiction treats it. Often they at least have something very similar to a will, though. Notorious Big attacks everything that moves for example. It's technically just a reflex, but it could be considered similar to a will. In the same fashion, a nonexistent character without a mind or will could be a thing that takes actions in accordance to certain rules. E.g. a nonexistent thing that automatically takes certain actions to defend a room. Like blocking attacks on it with forcefields and attacking intruders.
It's definitely edge cases, though.

 

[Theglassman12]

@DontTalkDT if being nothingness qualifies for idealistic, does being a literal void count for that or no?

 

[Antvasima]

Here's a summary of what I think the current and former staff positions are.
In favour of the revision / ok with it: LordGriffin1000, AKM sama, DontTalkDT (obviously), Celestial_Pegasus, Antoniofer, Qawsedf234, Theglassman12, Promestein, Elizhaa
Against the revision: -
Neutral: DarkDragonMedeus
Unknown: Ultima_Reality (Disagreed with the initial proposal, but has not given an opinion on the revised proposal yet), QuasiYuri (Said "I don't mind that idea, but it would need to be applied to more stuff to make sense (Regeneration for instance clearly need to divide its godly component instead of mixing them together)." Not sure if I should take that as a disagreement, agreement or just a proposal for revising other things too)

Okay. It seems like this has likely been sufficiently accepted then, but let's wait a bit for @Ultima_Reality in order to make certain.

 

[DontTalkDT]

@QuasiYuri I have now updated the proposal at the bottom of the OP to include your suggested text, in a slightly altered form.

@DontTalkDT if being nothingness qualifies for idealistic, does being a literal void count for that or no?

Being nothingness qualifies just for material nothingness, though. You have to be in a nondual state of nothingness to get idealistic. Neither would qualify for that per default.

Okay. It seems like this has likely been sufficiently accepted then, but let's wait a bit for @Ultima_Reality in order to make certain.

Alright. I will give him some time in case he is interested to give input.