Proposal for a Nonexistent Physiology Revision

[DontTalkDT]

If we have a character that is tell /show that nothing can hit/affect him (in a verse where many character can affect pretty much everything) except a weapon mean to kill something that don't exist, will we just list all ability that shouldn't work because his NEP?

If the character has evidence that physical attacks, soul attacks, mental attacks, conceptual attacks, information manipulation and plot manipulation can't harm them you would give them all aspects of nothingness types (Well Type 1 to 5). If there are things beyond that, which it resists, then ut would also get type 6 where you would then list all other aspects in which they are nonexistent. For the nature of nothingness type you would of course pick the one that fits best.

To be clear, you wouldn't list all abilities that don't work, but the aspects in which the character doesn't exist. So if the character's mind is nonexistent you list the mental nonexistence type, not that mind manipulation, empathic manipulation, fear manipulation and all other types of mind-affecting techniques are resisted.

Plot nonexistence should really just be Acausality or resistance or something, not an aspect of nonexistence.

I mean, it's not acausality. Cause it's not causality manip related. If we prefer we can also just list it as resistance to plot manip, though.

As I see, someone "erased from the plot" is like a Higher being getting rid of someone so it can no longer intervine with its story, however the ways of "getting rid" can vary: maybe banished the character from the main universe, or perhaps it made it imperceptible and intangible so no one can interact with it, or the it ended up being killed for good, finishing its story. How you see, there's several ways to erase someone from the plot, and recovering from it may grant different powers depending of the case.

I assumed we would be talking about something, like there being a book that is the plot of the world that it describes. And a character with plot nothingness doesn't appear in the book, but can still affect the world the book describes. IIRC D has something like that. But we could always just list it as resistance to plot manipulation. It's niche enough that it doesn't matter to me.

 

[Theglassman12]

@DontTalkDT I’m just referring to the 3 types and 6 types in general, like how exactly it’s supposed to be formatted. If we seriously need these two sections combined I think the first section would look better. The other two seems a bit too wordy and would look like a mess to label each and every type of Nonexistence on the page as opposed to the types.

So paradoxical is just an incomplete form of Idealistic, that makes it easier to understand.

I’d prefer the Plot nonexistence be a part of the “Other” category. Spiritual, Conceptual, Informational I can see given how general those abilities are, but something like Plot seems way too specific that “Other” would fit for Plot nonexistence better.

 

[TheShieldToronto76]

If you say type 3 and type 6, do you mean Paradoxical Nonexistence and Others? If so it is "Nonexistent Physiology (Type 3; Type 6 [Explanation])". If you mean mental nonexistence and Others, then you would need to still specify the Nature of Nothingness. If you have Material Nonexistent for example we would have "Nonexistent Physiology (Type 1; Type 3 & 6 [Explanation])". So the idea is that the formatting is "Nonexistent Physiology ([Types of Nothingness]; [Aspects of Nonexistence] [Explanations])"

Alternatively, you could just write out the names. It just needs to be clear what you mean, somehow.



It specifies in which aspects one is nonexistent in. That, for a start, makes it more clear what needs to be done to gain the ability and the specific types. It also makes it much more clear what the ability does for characters.

The current page says that character is nonexistent, but not which abilities would be assumed to work or not work against the character due to that. This page does.
It, in particular, solves a long-running problem where characters with NEP were assumed immune to abilities due to being vaguely nonexistent or nonexistent in a manner unrelated to the attacking ability. So it aims to reduce the NLF's born from the vagueness of the current page.

So, for example, if you look at the Hatou example in the original post: With the current page you have no idea whether or not soul manipulation could affect her, because her nonexistence Type 1 might just make it so that it doesn't. With the new page it becomes clear that Hatou can be assumed to be affected by soul manipulation, since she doesn't have the spiritual nonexistence type.


Idealistic Nonexistence is the essentially same thing that the current Type 2 is. The only difference is that current type 2 demands conceptual nonexistence in addition to what Idealistic Nonexistence in the new proposal demands. That demand isn't in the new proposal, as we have Conceptual Nothingness as separate type that can be combined with it. So basically, current NEP Type 2 is in the new proposal the same as NEP (Type 2; Type 2).

Paradoxical NEP is for characters who in some respect are nonexistent and existent at once. Or partially nonexistent. E.g. a character whose mind is nonexistent, but who can still think and be sentient. If you can think, you have a mind. However, fiction might say that your mind doesn't exist despite that (and hence can't be mind haxed). In that case, you have Paradoxical Nonexistence of the mind. (Type 3; Type 3)


I think I have seen a few, but I don't remember who. Personally, I'm neutral on the issue.


I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. Being cosmic or being infinite have no influence on this ability in any case.

But Non Beings can fit there

 

[DontTalkDT]

I’d prefer the Plot nonexistence be a part of the “Other” category. Spiritual, Conceptual, Informational I can see given how general those abilities are, but something like Plot seems way too specific that “Other” would fit for Plot nonexistence better.

Some people were of the opinion that it shouldn't be nonexistence at all. I have for now removed the plot nonexistence type from the updated proposal. If it appears in a story in a fashion that is very nonexistence-like one could still list it as "Others", I suppose.

Anyways, plot was the most common problem with the updated proposal. With that done would you say you agree with the change?

@Antoniofer @Promestein Same question to you.

 

[Promestein]

Uh, it looks more or less fine to me. I worry about people slapping mental NEP on things for like, not thinking?

 

[Antoniofer]

Not touching the part about Nature of Nothingness that I quite not get, I think is more or less fine. I still think that the difference between AE and NEP may be thin sometimes (generally cuz concepts tend to not be considered living things and may lack a soul, making them NE).

 

[DontTalkDT]

Not touching the part about Nature of Nothingness that I quite not get, I think is more or less fine. I still think that the difference between AE and NEP may be thin sometimes (generally cuz concepts tend to not be considered living things and may lack a soul, making them NE).

Yeah... tbh, I wouldn't be surprised if many verses consider AE users nonexistent. If you have a weird philosophical ability like this, you inevitably run into the problem that fiction just interprets the same things differently since it's using many different philosophical perspectives.
It's not too much of a problem, though. The worst case is that you have one redundant ability on some profiles.

Uh, it looks more or less fine to me. I worry about people slapping mental NEP on things for like, not thinking?

Not thinking would need to go to the extent of not being sentient in this case and they would still need to clear the requirement of being physically nonexistent.
So people could only slap it on Incorporeal non-sentient characters, which IMO is fine.

 

[Vietthai96]

I still don't like the idea Inorganic Physiology Type 2 Character get NEP just because they by default lack soul and mind

Other than that i propose two way to convey the new NEP on profile:

1. Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type [Insert type], Insert explaination of the nature of NEP here; Aspect Type [Insert type], Insert explaination of the aspect of NEP here)

2. Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type [Insert type], Aspect Type [Insert type]; Insert the god damn explaination here)

 

[Promestein]

Not thinking would need to go to the extent of not being sentient in this case and they would still need to clear the requirement of being physically nonexistent.
So people could only slap it on Incorporeal non-sentient characters, which IMO is fine.

That's fine then.

 

[Elizhaa]

Current intention is thatwe always use both. So one always first mentions which nature of the nothingness the character is has and then in which aspects it is nothing. (Like we do for Accelerated Development)

E.g. Hatou is physically nonexistent and in her weird probability aspect. She is nonexistent in the normal fashion (i.e. she simply lacks these things).
So she would get "NEP (Type 1; Type 6)" or with the names written out and justification "NEP (Material Nonexistence; Other. Is neither a wave nor a particle nor even a probability density)".

Alright.

 

[Theglassman12]

The rest of the revision I'm fine with, it might be a pain in the butt to try and get the two different sections listed for NEP on the pages without it looking too bloated but other than that this looks ok to me.

 

[Antoniofer]

Is one new general thread be made to apply is appropiated changes once this is accepted, or users would need to create individuals threads for individual verses?

 

[Rikimarox2]

I have only read the OP, but I have a simple question:

For the concept nonexistence part, would that you mean you are only immune to concept manip stuff, and other stuff such as normal physical attacks, mind manip, and all those would still work on you, or do you still need proof that you are able to affect them?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Stuffs

What is this granting?

Possesses an enhanced version of Machina's Ber'iah, in which his very existence becomes pure nothingness which requires him to wear his armor to contain it), And His 'being' is constructed of the very concept of nothingness itself, which needs to be contained by his armor, otherwise all those who look into his eyes would be erased from existence)

Also what types will this also grant

Mercurius' sensory is described as empty. Like he's an illusion or a mere reflection of the moon, he possesses no force or pressure - essentially, he is not really there. Making all conventional attacks just pass through him)

 

[Antoniofer]

@Rikimarox2, as for the new type 2 NEP, lacking a certain concept makes the character immune to concept manip that target that specific concept, but is still vulnerable to other forms of concept manip. Since NEP has as requeriment being Incorporeal, characters are immune to physical attacks unless they possesses NPI, and I believe they aren't necessary invulnerable to mind manip (granted, mind manip can affect incorporeal beings).

 

[Lapsad]

If a characters lacking a concept of "self" they would also immune to mind and soul manip ?

 

[Vietthai96]

If a characters lacking a concept of "self" they would also immune to mind and soul manip ?

This is one of the most "abstract" evidence lol, problem is what "self" in the verse refering to

 

[Lapsad]

Smth smth like the source in maougakuin.

 

[Antvasima]

All important policy and explanation page revisions should be posted in our staff forum. I will move this thread to there.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, for once when DontTalk posts a suggestion, I am not sure if I agree with it or not.

@AKM sama @DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou

What do you think about this?

 

[Qawsedf234]

It's wordy but I guess it gets the point across, so I'm fine with it.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I still don't like the idea Inorganic Physiology Type 2 Character get NEP just because they by default lack soul and mind

Again, they don't all get it. They need to have a nonexistent body, too. Heck, technically your body can't be simultaneously nonexistent and inorganic (well, technically technically all nonexistent bodies are inorganic, but let's not get into that), so the combination of Inorganic Physiology and NEP can't even happen in the new definition.

Other than that i propose two way to convey the new NEP on profile:

1. Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type [Insert type], Insert explaination of the nature of NEP here; Aspect Type [Insert type], Insert explaination of the aspect of NEP here)

2. Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type [Insert type], Aspect Type [Insert type]; Insert the god damn explaination here)

Yeah, the second might be a good idea. I guess that's easier to understand than the formatting with ";" and ",".

Is one new general thread be made to apply is appropiated changes once this is accepted, or users would need to create individuals threads for individual verses?

I suppose I can make a general thread for it at first and later on separate can be made, for pages that need bigger debate. Luckily, the way we're doing it the revisions don't all need to be made at once.

What is this granting?

Possesses an enhanced version of Machina's Ber'iah, in which his very existence becomes pure nothingness which requires him to wear his armor to contain it), And His 'being' is constructed of the very concept of nothingness itself, which needs to be contained by his armor, otherwise all those who look into his eyes would be erased from existence)

Also what types will this also grant

Mercurius' sensory is described as empty. Like he's an illusion or a mere reflection of the moon, he possesses no force or pressure - essentially, he is not really there. Making all conventional attacks just pass through him)

It's probably best to deal with complicated (and high-tiered) verses like Masadaverse after the revision to not derail the thread. (It would also need a few more details, which I would look into in the following revisions of verses then)

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I don't have the best sense of judgement regarding NEP, and normally DontTalkDT is good at it, but after hearing conflicts I'm not sure. Going to remain neutral for now.

 

[PrinceofPein]

It's probably best to deal with complicated (and high-tiered) verses like Masadaverse after the revision to not derail the thread. (It would also need a few more details, which I would look into in the following revisions of verses then)

No problem it was just that I don’t really see them fitting into a category I decided to ask, good luck on the remaining of the thread

 

[Naito-desu]

So for conceptual nonexistence, this will be broken down based on the type of concept they lack? Like, if a verse only shows Concept Manip type 2, it will only be Conceptual Nonexistence for Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation?

 

[Antoniofer]

I understood that is refer to a specific concept they lack, that also stacks with the type of concept, but that DontTalk confirms that one.

 

[Antvasima]

Can each side here explain their arguments in easy to understand manners please?

 

[Antoniofer]

There's not much counter arguments at the time (they are concerns at worst), most doubts came from giving NEP to mindless and soulless beings despite pretty much existing, but now DontTalk made being Incorporeal as a explicit requeriment for NEP.

 

[Vietthai96]

Again, they don't all get it. They need to have a nonexistent body, too. Heck, technically your body can't be simultaneously nonexistent and inorganic (well, technically technically all nonexistent bodies are inorganic, but let's not get into that), so the combination of Inorganic Physiology and NEP can't even happen in the new definition.


Yeah, the second might be a good idea. I guess that's easier to understand than the formatting with ";" and ",".

1. Oke, thank
2. Well i think you should put a note on NEP page about this, people need to know how to insert the ability in the character profile before they do anything. I don't want something like Conceptual Manip where many profile have it listed but no type at all lol, or people mess up with the description
3. Ah yes about Void, currently have true Void of Nothingess body qualify for Type 1 Material Nonexistent, and Void Manipulation is currently a textbook evidences for NEP1, character who can interact with void or have void manip considered to be able to interact, affect NEP1 character. So with the new NEP, what happen to Void

 

[Antvasima]

Can each side here explain their arguments in easy to understand manners please?

We still need somebody knowledgeable to do this in order to simplify the evaluation process for our staff members.

 

[Vietthai96]

We still need somebody knowledgeable to do this in order to simplify the evaluation process for our staff members.

Most people agree with new NEP from DontTalk, some others like DDM is neutral. There is no counterargument or disagreement, most people discuss about what kind of feat is qualify for new NEP, what not qualify

 

[Antvasima]

The deadlock and lack of arguments is why I requested an explanation text.

 

[Teezar]

1. Oke, thank
2. Well i think you should put a note on NEP page about this, people need to know how to insert the ability in the character profile before they do anything. I don't want something like Conceptual Manip where many profile have it listed but no type at all lol, or people mess up with the description
3. Ah yes about Void, currently have true Void of Nothingess body qualify for Type 1 Material Nonexistent, and Void Manipulation is currently a textbook evidences for NEP1, character who can interact with void or have void manip considered to be able to interact, affect NEP1 character. So with the new NEP, what happen to Void

So void beings can gain NEP 1?
What of on a conceptual level?

 

[Theglassman12]

I have a question, if someone’s just stated to not exist at all, does that give them Material nonexistence by default?

 

[Antvasima]

Could somebody do what I requested earlier please?

 

[Antoniofer]

Simply saying to not exist isn't enough to qualify as NE, a spirit or someone that has the power to avoid detection and going intangible may deem themselves to be nonexistent.

 

[BleedingPeach]

Could somebody do what I requested earlier please?

Ant, with the due respect... MAKE THEM SAY IT AND IF THEY DON'T GIVE THEM CONSEQUENCES.

 

[Antvasima]

That seems like a major overreaction...

 

[Antoniofer]

Most counters were already considered and DT make the appropiated adjustments to the draft, now only minor concerns are left; staff were already notified afaik, so if they hadn't commented about the changes I doubt they consider it significative enough to comment about it at least until one of their verses end up being affected.

 

[Antvasima]

It significantly helps our staff to help out in turn if they are provided easy to understand summaries. Otherwise they will usually not consider the evaluation process sufficiently important to waste lots of time and energy on. As such, I recurrently get a bit frustrated when other members refuse to collaborate with me in this regard.