Proposal for a Nonexistent Physiology Revision

[DontTalkDT]

It's time. I promised month ago I would make this revision and talked with @Elizhaa over the details a little in September. Since then I have been waiting for a decent time to post this. Now's Christmas break, so I have a little time at least. If I don't post it now I would probably never post it. So here is my suggestion for improving the NEP page.

What are the problems?​

A powers and abilities page should explain a power and in doing so it should answer three (types of) questions.

1. What needs to be shown to get the power and when do you get which type?
2. If you have the power (or a specific type of it), what practical uses does that have? Or in other words, which effects has the power?
3. What is the nature of the ability? What can we use as a guideline for how it interacts with other powers?

For many abilities that doesn't need much explanation. For fire manipulation, it is clear what needs to be done to get it, what effects it has and what the nature of the ability is. It doesn't need to be explicitly said.
However, NEP is a more complicated and varied power. In fact, as one of those weird metaphysical powers, it definitely should have answers to these questions on the page.
And that is where the problems lie. The page goes into a some detail on 3. It talks about the binary representation of existence, of how the power is a paradox and, for type 2, not existing on a conceptual level outside of 0 and 1. I think one could still improve/expand these explanations to better answer how other powers are assumed to interact with certain things, but the aspect already has plenty of thought put into it.
However, question 1. and 2. are basically entirely unanswered.

For the 1. question, in practice, it turns out the requirement for getting Type 1 became just to be stated to be nonexistent in any sense, even if the page technically says more than that. For example: There are corporeal characters on the wiki that have NEP Type 1, as they are stated to be nonexistent even if physical. I think many characters with NEP Type 1 also have no particular proof of having no soul. With such a general criteria to qualify, I think it is unsurprising that many different kinds of nonexistence are thrown into the same pot here.
For Type 2 it is even more unclear what qualifies. Typically it is a debate over whether people that exist without concept automatically have NEP Type 2 and if that qualifies, or under which conditions it does, is something nobody is quite sure of (or at least there seems to be no consensus). Another example for what might get called Type 2 NEP is to be so nonexistent that you are a hole in reality. Should that qualify? Maybe, but the page is anything but clear. While there probably are some clear cut cases for NEP Type 2, in most cases it is very vague about what qualifies.

However, especially for the 2. question it also says practically nothing. NEP is a largely defensive power. As you do not exist, you are not supposed to be affected by many things. But the details of that are never really mentioned. Does concept manipulation, information manipulation, causality manipulation or law manipulation work on NEP Type 1 or 2? The page gives no answer. Is a corporeal type 1 assumed to be punchable like normal? Who knows? Not the page. If a character with NEP is able to think, i.e. have a mind, can they be mind-controlled like normal or is it assumed to be a special mind that needs feats of affecting NEP minds to be controlled? Not clear.
We have dozens of threads that ask about clarifications on how the power works and that is because the page is incredibly vague about what each type does. And that is no surprise. The distinction the two types make does make sense from a philosophical perspective but is not very practical. It throws countless different natures and feats of nonexistence into the same pot and can hence not derive a general way they should be treated, as they simply can't all be treated the same.

Now, one could simply say to go by what the fiction the NEP comes from says about how it works and to a certain extent that is definitely necessary. However, that alone won't fix the uncertainty about the power that is present in the community. Hence, I propose a restructuring of the types into a form that in practice should yield a more useful classification.

TL;DR The requirements to get each type and its uses aren't very clear. We should change that.

The proposed change​

Let me first post my proposal for the page and afterwards explain the motivations behind it.

Nonexistent Physiology​

Summary​

Nonexistent Physiology refers to the ability to lack certain aspects of ones existence, to paradoxically 'exist', yet lack any identifiable traits of existence, or exist outside of a particular scope of 'existence'. While true nonexistence in the philosophical sense is impossible to prove, lesser forms of the idea appear often in fiction. Characters of this nature often exist as something beyond the normal scope of the physical and metaphysical worlds, instead existing as an idea or other unconventional state. In terms of binary where existence is 1 and nonexistence is 0, this would be a 0 or, in some rare cases, something that is neither 0 nor 1.

Types​

1. Physical Nonexistence: These characters lack a physical body or have one that behaves as if nonexistent*. This means the characters are usually incoporeal and hence immune to normal physical attacks. Not every character who is incorporeal has this type, as many still have a body made out of intangible energy or something similar, which exists and behaves as such.
2. Spiritual Nonexistence: These characters lack a soul and/or astral body or have one that behaves as if nonexistent*. They are hence immune to Soul Manipulation.
3. Conceptual Nonexistence: These characters lack one or multiple concepts necessary for their own existence or have one that behaves as if nonexistent*. They are hence immune to manipulation of said concept. Which type of concept should be mentioned on the profile.
4. Mental Nonexistence: These characters lack a mind or have one that behaves as if nonexistent*. The former would mean that they aren't actually sentient. Characters with this type are hence immune to Mind Manipulation and related abilities.
5. Other: These characters lack some other fundamental aspect that would be necessary for a normal being's existence or have one that behaves as if nonexistent*. Examples would include things like lacking an information body, a history or a place in the narrative of their story. They are hence immune to abilities that target that respective aspect. Which aspect should be mentioned on the profile.

*To behave as if nonexistent means that the characters have the respective aspect in some sense, but paradoxically behave as if they don't when attacked. To qualify for that, a character needs to be stated to be immune to manipulations of that nature due to their nonexistence. An example of that would be a character who is able to think, and hence has a mind, but is stated to be immune to regular mind manipulation as said mind is paradoxically nonexistent in nature.

Note: It is the aspects in which a character is not nonexistent, which makes them into a 'living' character. As such, if a character with this power is reduced to a state in which it can't display any properties of something that exists, it is effectively dead/erased. A consequence of that is that it requires feats or special reasoning for a character with this ability to survive the complete erasure of their plane of existence, as one needs to confirm that they are able to still display some existent properties on a different plane of existence.

And after that come the last two sections of the page, exactly as they are now.

The TL;DR of that would be that we split up the nonexistent types into types similar to regeneration and make it so that the uses fit the showings.

So, what are the advantages here? Well, it answers questions 1 and 2 immediately. The feats/statements necessary to get each type are clear and the effect of having a type is clearly specified and a pretty obvious consequence of the feat in question. Hence each character gets exactly what it has the arguments to have.

The only downside (aside of having to actually implement the change) is that we lose the existing difference between type 1 and 2. I considered handling that by having two kinds of types (like accelerated development has) and that is still an option. It would additionally have the advantage that we can add the additional types gradually, instead of having to change each profile right away.
However, technically I think they aren't necessary. The main feature of type 2 was to be nonexistent in a transdual fashion. That is in principle just NEP + Transduality (or nonduality if one wishes to be specific). Most characters that have Type 2 don't have it for that reason, though, but instead have it for having conceptual nonexistence. The new type for conceptual nonexistence would handle those just as well.
Still, I'm fundamentally fine with both solutions as I see the practical advantage of expanding the page, instead of changing it completely.

Example​

At first I wanted to look at multiple characters here to explain the change, but then I realized that using characters I don't intimately know from other verses as example would likely cause a lot of off-topic controversies, as it would basically be a CRT for them. So I will do one example with a character not a lot of people besides me care about. Hatou Manabu.
She currently has NEP Type 1 for the following quote on her nature:

I’m sure she couldn’t see me.

After all... I no longer existed.

Right now, I was an entity that could not be observed by anybody.

The Theory of Everything that Alice had found could also be used to determine when something had been observed with certainty.

But to put it another way, it was also a theory that could be used to derive the boundaries of human observation.

I understood that, and used it so that I would exceed those boundaries.

I went back ten or so billion years, back to the starting of our universe, and meddled with my own personal parameters so that I was remade as an entity to which the Theory of Everything could not be applied. I had begun evolving again from scratch. Into something without flesh that humans could not perceive... into something that was neither wave nor particle, nor even a probability density. I was an existence that did not exist, something that did not reside in the observable human universe. I had extinguished myself from that universe.

So that nobody could ever observe me.

And so there shouldn’t be anybody in this world who could be aware of my existence.

In other words, there was nobody here who could determine me with certainty.

She is stated to be nonexistent, alright. We also know that she is in fact invisible and incorporeal, just like what the above would suggest. She also seems to be nonexistent in a special way that makes her work outside of probability.

However, contextually it is pretty clear that we are talking about nonexistence from a scientific perspective here. Hatou still has a mind and there is no reason to assume she doesn't have a soul. No particular evidence exists for either of them to act as if they were nonexistent either.

So in the new system, she would get "Nonexistent Physiology (Type 1 & 5; Doesn't physically exist and additionally doesn't exist from a probability standpoint)".

---

Edit: The proposal was worked on during this thread. Notably, physical nonexistence was made a requirement rather than a type and the prior types were incorporated. The most recent proposal text is this:

Nonexistent Physiology​

Summary​

Nonexistent Physiology refers to the ability to lack certain aspects of ones existence, to paradoxically 'exist', yet lack certain identifiable traits of existence, or exist outside of a particular scope of 'existence'. While true nonexistence in the philosophical sense is impossible to prove, lesser forms of the idea appear often in fiction.

Characters of this nature often exist as something beyond the normal scope of the physical and metaphysical worlds and instead exist as an idea or other unconventional state. Examples of possible portrayals include, but are not limited to, existing in a state of a being prior to being born in any form or as a character who has been a victim of Existence Erasure, yet can still act and think in some way. Some existing beings can return to their state of non-existence as their "true self", although that is frequently more akin to a state of inactivity or death, in which case their existential self is closer to the individual itself than their original form is. Note that characters who meet these examples still need to fulfil the other requirements listed here.

The physical body of every character with this ability has to be nonexistent. That means that users always are incorporeal, unless maybe they physically qualify for Paradoxical Nonexistence. That means that robots or similar don't qualify for spiritual or mental nonexistence, as they physically exist. Incorporeality alone, however, is not enough. The character has to additionally have at least one combination of the following types:

Types​

Nature of Nothingness​

In which fashion characters are nonexistent in the aspects in which they are:

1. Material Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a conventional sense. In terms of binary, this would be a 0, where existence is 1 and nonexistence is 0. In simple terms that means that the characters simply lack the aspect, in the same way that a stone lacks a soul.
2. Idealistic Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a sense further beyond conventional nonexistence. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence. Characters of this type often have some low degree of Transduality due to their lack of binary existence. Characters of this type have to behave at least as nonexistent as those with Material Nonexistence, but might display even further showings such as preceding or opposing existence.
3. Paradoxical Nonexistence: Characters still exist, but paradoxically behave as if they don't when attacked. Equivalently, characters qualify which don't exist, but behave as if they do in some aspect other than their interaction with attacks and abilities. To qualify for this type, a character needs to be stated to be immune to manipulations of the aspects they are nonexistent in due to their nonexistence. An example of that would be a character who is able to think, and hence has a mind, but is stated to be immune to regular mind manipulation as said mind is paradoxically nonexistent in nature. The character doesn't necessarily behave exclusively nonexistent in regard to attacks, but that is the only requirement necessary to gain this type. In terms of binary, where existence is 1 and nonexistence is 0, this would be part 0 and part 1 simultaneously.

Aspects of Nonexistence​

Which aspects the characters are nonexistent in:

1. Spiritual Nonexistence: These are characters whose soul and/or astral body is nonexistent. They are hence immune to regular Soul Manipulation.
2. Conceptual Nonexistence: These are characters for which one or multiple concepts, that are necessary for their own existence, are nonexistent. They are hence immune to regular manipulation of said concept(s). Which type of concept should be mentioned on the profile.
3. Mental Nonexistence: These are characters whose mind is nonexistent. Characters with this type are hence immune to regular Mind Manipulation and related abilities.
4. Information Nonexistence: These characters whose information are nonexistent. These refers strictly to the type of information that shape reality. (Note: it's agreed that info manip will get types soon, which will make this clearer) They are hence immune to regular Information Manipulation.
5. Other: These characters lack some other fundamental aspect that would be necessary for a normal being's existence or have a nonexistent one. Examples would include things like lacking a history. They are hence immune to abilities that target that respective aspect. Which aspect should be mentioned on the profile, together with any detail regarding what it makes them immune to.

Note: It are the aspects in which a character is not nonexistent in the common sense, which makes them into a 'living' character. As such, if a character with this power is reduced to a state in which it can't display any properties of something that exists (e.g. becomes unable to take any actions), it is effectively dead/erased. A consequence of that is that it requires feats or special reasoning for a character with this ability to survive the complete erasure of their plane of existence, as one needs to confirm that they are able to still display some existent properties on a different plane of existence.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I am in general agreement but I think there are problems with classification here, but I have two issues. For one, I do think we need conceptual a section for the transdual form of nonexistent, and I think it would actually be pretty easy to account for. Since we are already allowed to include multiple types on the profile, we should just have another one that accounts for it being neither 1 or 0. It will help with stream lining the shift over to the new system at the very least. Second, I think I disagree with your premise that if they have to demonstrate some facet of existence to be a 'living' member of the story. The most obvious kind of nonexistent character that runs counter to this are those that, as paradoxical as it sounds, are composed of nonexistent energy/material or that are more or less "made of void." Within such cosmologies, one could in fact have a nonexistent entity that are still active agents in the story.

"To behave as if nonexistent means that the characters have the respective aspect in some sense, but paradoxically behave as if they don't when attacked. To qualify for that, a character needs to be stated to be immune to manipulations of that nature due to their nonexistence. An example of that would be a character who is able to think, and hence has a mind, but is stated to be immune to regular mind manipulation as said mind is paradoxically nonexistent in nature."

To be more specific, I think that a character, if they are one of these characters that one might usually refer to as seemingly existent to exist in the story, would instead still by default fall on the burden of the other character to be able to effect a mind which is 'made of void' or 'made of nonexistence' as odd as that sounds. You could also argue that characters who have been totally erased, and stated to totally not exist, which would otherwise seemingly have some aspect. For the latter, I would site Kama who was erased down to the conceptual level yet can obviously still talk and apparently think. As, in the series, a conceptual extent is regarded as more fundamental than the mind or soul, these would still not exist. Simply because you say that if she can talk we should therefore assume she has a mind that merely acts to not exist is very presumptious. To phrase this another way, if a character can think without having a mind, as would demonstrably be the case in such a verse's cosmology, then I do not agree that they merely have minds that "behave as if they don't when attacked."

 

[Hasty12345]

I think I agree, but I want to here more opinions.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Technically if one lacks a notion of self basically conceptual nonexistence they shouldn't even have a mind and body nor a soul. So for those who still have a body, mind or soul, would by technicality would possess resistance logic (law) manipulation.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I have this description of NEP I made for another wiki if it can helps.

"Beings who paradoxically 'exist', yet lack any identifiable traits of existence and are instead defined by their lack of features. They are usually portrayed as the state of a being prior to being born in any form, or as a character who has been a victim of Existence Erasure, yet can still act and think in some way. Note that while some beings can return to their state of non-existence as their "true self", it usually is more akin to a state of inactivity or death, in which case their existential self is closer to the individual itself than their original form is."

Regarding the idea of dividing everything one lacks as a type of NEP I'm a bit unsure. You wouldn't give "Organic non-existence" to organic-like rocks for instance.

I don't mind that idea, but it would need to be applied to more stuff to make sense (Regeneration for instance clearly need to divide its godly component instead of mixing them together).

 

[Delta333]

About conceptual nonexistence, if one character lacks concept type 2, can it still be affected by CM type 1? If yes then what is the reason?

 

[Greatsage13th]

About conceptual nonexistence, if one character lacks concept type 2, can it still be affected by CM type 1? If yes then what is the reason?

No...

 

[Rabbit2002]

Can physical nonexistence be affected by mind manip of a character that has never affect nonexistence before ? I mean they even don't have brain to affect so is it considered immune to mind manip ?

 

[Greatsage13th]

Can physical nonexistence be affected by mind manip of a character that has never affect nonexistence before ? I mean they even don't have brain to affect so is it considered immune to mind manip ?

No

 

[Lapsad]

Metal nonexistence can considered to be mindless ?

 

[Greatsage13th]

Metal nonexistence can considered to be mindless ?

Kind of, check out Cthulhu mythos for example.

 

[Lapsad]

Both soul and mental NE is look like inorganic physiology.

 

[PrinceofPein]

NEP type 4 jokes and insults
loading............

 

[deonment]

About conceptual nonexistence, if one character lacks concept type 2, can it still be affected by CM type 1? If yes then what is the reason?

they can since type nep based on type 2 concepts is just physical erasure since they hold the same level of "dependency" as for example if you erase the type 2 concept of humans, all humans would be erased by proxy, however, if a new instance of a human is created the concept comes back into being, a trait that when compared to the erasure of a type 1 concept, is fundamentally less, also the lack of a type 2 concept does not mean one lacks a type 1 concept, while the inverse cannot be true

Can physical nonexistence be affected by mind manip of a character that has never affect nonexistence before ? I mean they even don't have brain to affect so is it considered immune to mind manip ?

depends on the type of mind hax, for example, someone doing it via messing with the brain, for example, soundwaves or manipulating the neuron's in the brain, wouldn't work, but stuff such as messing with the abstract mind, such as stuff like messing with the ego, messing with someone's thoughts etc etc etc

 

[RatherClueless]

Do characters simply need to lack a soul/mind to get type 2 and 4 or do they need to lack a body as well?

Would the lack of a body via lacking dimensionality be type 1, 5 or both?

Shouldn't "complete Non-existence" get it's own type?

We should really sort them by "impressiveness". So something like

1. Lacking a body
2. Lacking a body as well as either mind or soul
3. Lacking mind, body and soul
4. Lacking body and concept
...
?. Lacking basically everything

obviously in what order these would be is up to debate. I also think type 1 should be necessary for any following type.

Another thing is that I don't believe that type 5 should be as broad as it is. I'd rather have 10 types of NEP than one that just goes "whatever bro".

Also, considering that our current types are more so about the "quality" of non-existence, rather than "how" someone doesn't exist, I'd really love to see that being reflected in the new version as well.

 

[Vietthai96]

i somehow think this is too unnecessary, type 1 and type 3 is what we currently have, i can understand the purpose of type 5. But ****, type 2 and 4 is very bad, if we doesn't have a good standard and rule, people will just give NEP left and right for character who lack either mind or soul

 

[Greatsage13th]

i somehow think this is too unnecessary, type 1 and type 3 is what we currently have, i can understand the purpose of type 5. But ****, type 2 and 4 is very bad, if we doesn't have a good standard and rule, people will just give NEP left and right for character who lack either mind or soul

Basically robots.

 

[Vietthai96]

Basically robots.

Basically, any Inorganic Physiology Type 2 character

 

[Greatsage13th]

Basically, any Inorganic Physiology Type 2 character

Yep

 

[Vietthai96]

Yep

Also any Abstract Existence Type 1 will also get NEP Type 1 if this get accepted, because AE1 exist as pure abstraction, they have no body

 

[DontTalkDT]

Do characters simply need to lack a soul/mind to get type 2 and 4 or do they need to lack a body as well?

Only need to lack a soul and mind.

Would the lack of a body via lacking dimensionality be type 1, 5 or both?

Sounds like Type 1 and Beyond-Dimensional Existence, although one could also list it as Type 1 and Type 5, yes.

Shouldn't "complete Non-existence" get it's own type?

As the NEP page currently already states, true nonexistence is unprovable. Or specifically, if you had complete nonexistence you wouldn't have a profile, as something completely nonexistent has no stats and no abilities and is unable to do anything.

We should really sort them by "impressiveness". So something like

1. Lacking a body
2. Lacking a body as well as either mind or soul
3. Lacking mind, body and soul
4. Lacking body and concept
...
?. Lacking basically everything

obviously in what order these would be is up to debate. I also think type 1 should be necessary for any following type.

That causes problem we can avoid by not doing so. Namely that there inevitably will be combinations between. E.g. lacking a concept, having a soul, but lacking a mind and still having a body. That is a combination that can theoretically exist in fiction, but couldn't be tiered in a list like you suggest. If we keep the types independent one can simply list "Type 2 & 4" and be done with it. Makes things easier.

Another thing is that I don't believe that type 5 should be as broad as it is. I'd rather have 10 types of NEP than one that just goes "whatever bro".

Meh, again, it solves problems. There are some fictions that are vague regarding the nature of their nonexistence or some might come up with unique ways to be nonexistent. I would rather have a type to push these into, where they need an explanation, than have people try to squeeze them into one of a few badly fitting categories because we have no alternatives.

We always have so many CRT's regarding "should this vague feat equate to this ability" that I have become a fan of having a "just explain the feat on the page"-type.

Also, considering that our current types are more so about the "quality" of non-existence, rather than "how" someone doesn't exist, I'd really love to see that being reflected in the new version as well.

I mean, in practice I think basically all Type 2's we have currently are there for conceptual nonexistence, which would be reflected by having Type 3 in the new system. The few that are there for being neither 0 nor 1, could get Transduality listed instead.
However, if people prefer, I actually don't mind just having both types (like Accelerated Development). We would then need to clean up current type 2 somehow to make it clearer when one gets it, though.

i somehow think this is too unnecessary, type 1 and type 3 is what we currently have, i can understand the purpose of type 5. But ****, type 2 and 4 is very bad, if we doesn't have a good standard and rule, people will just give NEP left and right for character who lack either mind or soul

You say type 1 and 3 is what we currently have, but.... it isn't. That's the big problem. You look at vs-threads with NEP and you will find that mind hax and soul hax against NEP users is often just said to not work, because... they're nonexistent, right? Specifically, I have heard countless times that basically nothing short of Concept Manip. or abilities with feats specifically against NEP can affect a character with NEP.
We also have NEP characters who are not Type 1. Void Knight is a prime example. And people actually thought in vs-threads that you can't physically beat him cause NEP despite that.

Basically, things aren't working great, since neither the qualification for getting the power nor its uses are defined and people are running with it in some very questionable ways. Changing the page is the easiest remedy here.

I don't see the problem for giving it out to characters who have no mind or soul. There is no real difference between a character without soul and a character with nonexistent soul, except wording. It's just that we now would have an ability for lacking one. It's not like it would suggest them to be able to do something which wasn't already clear by listing 'has no soul' on the profile.

Regarding the idea of dividing everything one lacks as a type of NEP I'm a bit unsure. You wouldn't give "Organic non-existence" to organic-like rocks for instance.

I don't mind that idea, but it would need to be applied to more stuff to make sense (Regeneration for instance clearly need to divide its godly component instead of mixing them together).

I don't really get the organic non-existence example... as it would not really be non-existent in any sense. If a fiction actually does nonexistence like that we are well justified to just not give the ability (or list it as a type 5 that does nothing)

I don't think this proposal really hinges on whether or not we change regeneration. There is no direct link between the abilities.

I am in general agreement but I think there are problems with classification here, but I have two issues. For one, I do think we need conceptual a section for the transdual form of nonexistent, and I think it would actually be pretty easy to account for. Since we are already allowed to include multiple types on the profile, we should just have another one that accounts for it being neither 1 or 0. It will help with stream lining the shift over to the new system at the very least.

I guess that's an option. I guess one could make Type 1 physical nonexistence, type 2 transduality type and the rest as proposed above. In theory nothing should be changed then... although in practice I imagine most Type 2's actually don't have the transduality property...

Second, I think I disagree with your premise that if they have to demonstrate some facet of existence to be a 'living' member of the story. The most obvious kind of nonexistent character that runs counter to this are those that, as paradoxical as it sounds, are composed of nonexistent energy/material or that are more or less "made of void." Within such cosmologies, one could in fact have a nonexistent entity that are still active agents in the story.

"To behave as if nonexistent means that the characters have the respective aspect in some sense, but paradoxically behave as if they don't when attacked. To qualify for that, a character needs to be stated to be immune to manipulations of that nature due to their nonexistence. An example of that would be a character who is able to think, and hence has a mind, but is stated to be immune to regular mind manipulation as said mind is paradoxically nonexistent in nature."

To be more specific, I think that a character, if they are one of these characters that one might usually refer to as seemingly existent to exist in the story, would instead still by default fall on the burden of the other character to be able to effect a mind which is 'made of void' or 'made of nonexistence' as odd as that sounds. You could also argue that characters who have been totally erased, and stated to totally not exist, which would otherwise seemingly have some aspect. For the latter, I would site Kama who was erased down to the conceptual level yet can obviously still talk and apparently think. As, in the series, a conceptual extent is regarded as more fundamental than the mind or soul, these would still not exist. Simply because you say that if she can talk we should therefore assume she has a mind that merely acts to not exist is very presumptious. To phrase this another way, if a character can think without having a mind, as would demonstrably be the case in such a verse's cosmology, then I do not agree that they merely have minds that "behave as if they don't when attacked."

A character needs to be able to take actions to be a character. They need to be able to do something and doing something in and of itself is an aspect of existence. If your character made out of void can think or do anything, then either they are existent in some manner or they behave as if they are. So yeah, either the characters are existent in some way or they are walking logical paradoxes that in some respect behave as if existent.

What your Kama example is concerned: If the character can be proven to have no mind and soul, but still thinks then you are in the logical paradox case. Whether you call that having a mind that behaves nonexistent in some aspect or having no mind but it behaves existent in some aspect is hairsplitting. Really, it's the same thing described from two perspectives. You have something partially nonexistent, that's the point. As long as the character thinks it can't have a truly nonexistent mind i.e. it can't lack a mind without invoking a logical paradox.
And don't see it as "merely" having a mind that behaves as if it doesn't exist when attacked. That is a necessary requirement for getting the type, but it doesn't say that is all the mind is nonexistent in. The mind can additionally behave nonexistent in many other ways, those just don't influence whether or not they get the type.
So it can be much more nonexistent, but it has to prove that it at least passes the hurdle of being impossible to mind hax.

 

[Regidian]

As the NEP page currently already states, true nonexistence is unprovable. Or specifically, if you had complete nonexistence you wouldn't have a profile, as something completely nonexistent has no stats and no abilities and is unable to do anything.

I mean technicaly doesn't [] have this case? It only have a profile because Shiki

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Physical Nonexistence: These characters lack a physical body or have one that behaves as if nonexistent*. This means the characters are usually incoporeal and hence immune to normal physical attacks. Not every character who is incorporeal has this type, as many still have a body made out of intangible energy or something similar, which exists and behaves as such.

I think this is a bit of a redundant power to have around because the requirements for Incorporeality are already fairly open-ended and don't really require a character to be made of some other substance that has no relation to physical ones: It just requires one to lack a body, and how exactly that is accomplished is to be elaborated further on the given character's profile. We, of course, already have a lot of powers that intersect with one another, but this doesn't really seem to cover any additional aspects that Incorporeality alone doesn't (Like, for instance, with Type 1 Abstract Existence)

I also agree with Iapitus up there in that something being "nonexistent" doesn't always necessarily preclude them from still being defined by some more fundamental (Or equally as fundamental) agent (Paradoxical, yes, but this whole power exists solely because fiction likes to play around with nonsense, anyway). I suppose good examples of that would be in Megami Tensei, where the Collective Unconscious/Archetypal World is explicitly described as a realm of nothingness and a void in multiple occasions, and yet is still created by the underlying information which human minds manipulate, or in the Chrono series, where even worlds that are deleted are made of dreams, as explained years ago in this thread.

Mental Nonexistence: These characters lack a mind or have one that behaves as if nonexistent*. The former would mean that they aren't actually sentient. Characters with this type are hence immune to Mind Manipulation and related abilities.

Spiritual Nonexistence: These characters lack a soul and/or astral body or have one that behaves as if nonexistent*. They are hence immune to Soul Manipulation.

This seems to stray a bit too much from the basic idea of Nonexistent Physiology itself for my tastes, which is expressed both in the name of the ability itself and in the description which you still included in your new version of the page (Characters of this nature often exist as something beyond the normal scope of the physical and metaphysical worlds, instead existing as an idea or other unconventional state. In terms of binary where existence is 1 and nonexistence is 0, this would be a 0 or, in some rare cases, something that is neither 0 nor 1).

Unless we are aiming to thoroughly redefine the whole thing, the ability should stick to revolving around "nonexistence" in an ontological sense, and given how both of these abilities can easily be grouped separately (i.e Giving Immunity to Soul Manipulation to a soulless character), those suggestions don't come across as that much of a requirement to me. If we choose to index every single way in which a character can technically be "nonexistent," then I'm fairly sure some powers would be made redundant as well (Acausality being one that immediately comes to mind, particularly Type 5)

All of the above aside, I'm also of the opinion that treating cases where something simply "behaves as if nonexistent" as something distinct is pretty redundant, too, since the whole premise of the power is already that a character doesn't exist and yet is still paradoxically able to have agency. The opposite of that is just a character who, say, was erased from existence and as such is treated as being dead within the context of a story, which we obviously wouldn't index as having Nonexistent Physiology.

Note: It is the aspects in which a character is not nonexistent, which makes them into a 'living' character. As such, if a character with this power is reduced to a state in which it can't display any properties of something that exists, it is effectively dead/erased. A consequence of that is that it requires feats or special reasoning for a character with this ability to survive the complete erasure of their plane of existence, as one needs to confirm that they are able to still display some existent properties on a different plane of existence.

I'm not too fond of that line of reasoning, either. For instance there are plenty of verses that define their supreme gods as totally nonexistent in every manner, which is often what the current Type 2 ends up classifying. You might repeat what the page states and say that such a thing cannot be proven, sure, but we are already acknowledging that the ability itself is paradoxical and not really that sensical at its core, anyway, so we may as well just apply that acknowledgement into practice, especially since verses that delve too heavily into this often are not trying to have things make logical sense to begin with, so trying to force them to is a pointless endeavor.

Overall, I do believe NEP could use some changes to better clarify some things, but I don't really agree with much of those solutions.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I think my biggest problem is, what if there are characters that fulfill numerous types of nonexistence? Significantly powerful Demons in Shin Megami Tensei are nonexistence, and to be nonexistent in that series means you lack a singular mind, soul, concept, and informational body.

I think it’s better off being split between normal & conceptual NEP.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I think this is a bit of a redundant power to have around because the requirements for Incorporeality are already fairly open-ended and don't really require a character to be made of some other substance that has no relation to physical ones: It just requires one to lack a body, and how exactly that is accomplished is to be elaborated further on the given character's profile. We, of course, already have a lot of powers that intersect with one another, but this doesn't really seem to cover any additional aspects that Incorporeality alone doesn't (Like, for instance, with Type 1 Abstract Existence)

We can remove Type 1, I suppose. I would suggest to leave a note that one should list incorporeality instead of that then, though. Just so that we don't get people listing NEP for NEP that can not be proven to go further than Type 1. That's basically why I included it: To not have endless debates over whether a nonexistent character has NEP.

I also agree with Iapitus up there in that something being "nonexistent" doesn't always necessarily preclude them from still being defined by some more fundamental (Or equally as fundamental) agent (Paradoxical, yes, but this whole power exists solely because fiction likes to play around with nonsense, anyway). I suppose good examples of that would be in Megami Tensei, where the Collective Unconscious/Archetypal World is explicitly described as a realm of nothingness and a void in multiple occasions, and yet is still created by the underlying information which human minds manipulate, or in the Chrono series, where even worlds that are deleted are made of dreams, as explained years ago in this thread.

Eh.... I don't really get your point here? I mean, my proposal explicitly allows for nonexistence in just certain aspects or being paradoxically nonexistent despite displaying some existent properties. All it, and the current page too, says is that you can't prove being non-paradoxically nonexistent in absolutely every aspect.

This seems to stray a bit too much from the basic idea of Nonexistent Physiology itself for my tastes, which is expressed both in the name of the ability itself and in the description which you still included in your new version of the page (Characters of this nature often exist as something beyond the normal scope of the physical and metaphysical worlds, instead existing as an idea or other unconventional state. In terms of binary where existence is 1 and nonexistence is 0, this would be a 0 or, in some rare cases, something that is neither 0 nor 1).

Unless we are aiming to thoroughly redefine the whole thing, the ability should stick to revolving around "nonexistence" in an ontological sense, and given how both of these abilities can easily be grouped separately (i.e Giving Immunity to Soul Manipulation to a soulless character), those suggestions don't come across as that much of a requirement to me. If we choose to index every single way in which a character can technically be "nonexistent," then I'm fairly sure some powers would be made redundant as well (Acausality being one that immediately comes to mind, particularly Type 5)

Sounds nice on paper, sadly most characters with NEP don't have proof of ontological anything. It's virtually always "x was erased in some fashion, but still exists, so x has NEP." We have to face the reality that most fiction don't deliver as much philosophical stuff, but go more into practical showings or their own ideas.

The entire "ontological" proposal plays into exactly the problem with the page at that. It is not clear when a character qualifies for that and, more importantly, it is absolutely not clear what the general result of that is. It escapes the duty of making clear requirements for specific results, by only talking about philosophical principle.

It throws everything that is nonexistent in some pot as if they are nonexistent the same way, to the same extent and with the same result. It doesn't work like that in fiction.

Upholding a page that makes it seem like being stated 'nonexistent' in any philosophical way grants immunity to basically every ability is undesirable.

The characters can still be a 0 on the existence scale, it is just that we have to acknowledge that in fiction not every 0 is the same. Authors mean different things with nonexistence and we need feats if we wish to claim results. And we need to claim results, as we see in practice how not describing what the uses of the types are doesn't work out.

All of the above aside, I'm also of the opinion that treating cases where something simply "behaves as if nonexistent" as something distinct is pretty redundant, too, since the whole premise of the power is already that a character doesn't exist and yet is still paradoxically able to have agency. The opposite of that is just a character who, say, was erased from existence and as such is treated as being dead within the context of a story, which we obviously wouldn't index as having Nonexistent Physiology.

But it isn't treated as something distinct. It is still the same type. All it says it that one can qualify in two separate ways. Either not having it in the regular sense or not having it in a paradoxical sense.

I'm not too fond of that line of reasoning, either. For instance there are plenty of verses that define their supreme gods as totally nonexistent in every manner, which is often what the current Type 2 ends up classifying. You might repeat what the page states and say that such a thing cannot be proven, sure, but we are already acknowledging that the ability itself is paradoxical and not really that sensical at its core, anyway, so we may as well just apply that acknowledgement into practice, especially since verses that delve too heavily into this often are not trying to have things make logical sense to begin with, so trying to force them to is a pointless by endeavor.

That would involve reasoning from paradoxes which is a big no no. It's like saying "sure we can't prove omnipotence, but we acknowledge the ability is paradoxical, so we might as well use it anyways". If you can't prove something you don't get to assume it. Feats and specific statements are all we can go by for this.

And no verse really has their god as truly nonexistent. They might say their god is "truly nonexistent", but in having abilities and being able to take action to change their verse it is evidently not truly nonexistent. True nonexistence is really like true omnipotence: We can acknowledge that a fiction thinks that is what it is talking about, but it makes no sense to extrapolate from it for our purposes.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I think my biggest problem is, what if there are characters that fulfill numerous types of nonexistence? Significantly powerful Demons in Shin Megami Tensei are nonexistence, and to be nonexistent in that series means you lack a singular mind, soul, concept, and informational body.

I think it’s better off being split between normal & conceptual NEP.

That's not a problem. The intention was always that the characters would get multiple types. The same way we do it for immortality, where a character can, for example, have Immortality Type 1, 3 & 8 at once.

And if you say "normal" nonexistence... what does that entail? What does it make immune against and what has to be shown for it? The big problem with the page is that it isn't clear about those things at all.

 

[Regidian]

What will happen to "thing" that have NEP2 but they don't have feat that conceptual/law/info etc don't work in them because they never have take an action in the verse?

 

[RatherClueless]

Only need to lack a soul and mind.

Yeah, that's a huge issue, as characters like vampires, golems, robots etc now have NEP . . . Simply not needing/having something most other characters have/need shouldnt grant NEP. Especially with type 5, this opens the doors to all kinds of nonsensical NEPs, like characters that lack a common/necessary type of energy within a verse.

As the NEP page currently already states, true nonexistence is unprovable. Or specifically, if you had complete nonexistence you wouldn't have a profile, as something completely nonexistent has no stats and no abilities and is unable to do anything.

You literally added:

"To behave as if nonexistent means that the characters have the respective aspect in some sense, but paradoxically behave as if they don't when attacked."

But somehow that bars "complete" nonexistence?

Namely that there inevitably will be combinations between. E.g. lacking a concept, having a soul, but lacking a mind and still having a body.

That probably shouldn't even be NEP, ngl. Also, I did include combinations in my very example. It'd be something like regeneration. (Low-Godly, Mid-Godly, High-Godly). Anyways, they should still be sorted differently either way. (concept > mind > soul > body).

There are some fictions that are vague regarding the nature of their nonexistence or some might come up with unique ways to be nonexistent. I would rather have a type to push these into, where they need an explanation, than have people try to squeeze them into one of a few badly fitting categories because we have no alternatives.

Simply existing as a void within reality/not existing within the plot/etc are definetly types we could make separately and still have this type. However, if you really want a "whatever" type, it would need to have way more restrictive guidelines to make sure people arent giving NEP for literally "anything".

However, if people prefer, I actually don't mind just having both types (like Accelerated Development). We would then need to clean up current type 2 somehow to make it clearer when one gets it, though.

I actually think that could be a pretty interesting solution depending on how it is implemented.

 

[DontTalkDT]

What will happen to "thing" that have NEP2 but they don't have feat that conceptual/law/info etc don't work in them because they never have take an action in the verse?

If they have no feats of it and it can't be proven by reasoning specifically delivered in verse that they are immune to it, they can still be killed by it.

You know, the good old "if you want to be resistant to something you need evidence" that we also use otherwise.

Yeah, that's a huge issue, as characters like vampires, golems, robots etc now have NEP . . . Simply not needing/having something most other characters have/need shouldnt grant NEP. Especially with type 5, this opens the doors to all kinds of nonsensical NEPs, like characters that lack a common/necessary type of energy within a verse.

Common type of energy wouldn't qualify. Lacking something that is necessary for them to exist would maybe.

And... I mean, what is your proposal for a requirement that excludes vampires, golems, robots etc.? I guess we could demand that NEP users need to be incorporeal, excluding any corporeal character from having the ability (e.g. it would need to be removed from Void Knight) but then incorporeal vampires, golems and robots would still get it.

You literally added:

"To behave as if nonexistent means that the characters have the respective aspect in some sense, but paradoxically behave as if they don't when attacked."

But somehow that bars "complete" nonexistence?

Yes? As said, any character capable of thinking and taking action isn't truly nonexistent. They are at best a paradox that displays some existent and some nonexistent properties.

That probably shouldn't even be NEP, ngl. Also, I did include combinations in my very example. It'd be something like regeneration. (Low-Godly, Mid-Godly, High-Godly). Anyways, they should still be sorted differently either way. (concept > mind > soul > body).

There is absolutely no reason for mind > soul to be the case. In plenty of fiction the mind is even just a part of the soul. One can't absolutely rank the types. Like, what is more fundamental? Plot or Information? That depends on the verse. It makes more sense to just describe a characters nonexistence by the combination of the different types. One can still describe all your suggested types of nonexistence just as precise, but one can also get others.

Simply existing as a void within reality/not existing within the plot/etc are definetly types we could make separately and still have this type. However, if you really want a "whatever" type, it would need to have way more restrictive guidelines to make sure people arent giving NEP for literally "anything".

We could separate those types, yes. I would still want a "other"-type, though. If we add physical nonexistence as something every user of the ability needs to have, then it would be that + an explanation for what else there is.

I have to say, personally, I don't awfully mind if the others type is used a lot. It does nothing beyond what the explanation states, after all. (Which I could mention even more clearly) So there is no real harm done if a profile too many has it.

I actually think that could be a pretty interesting solution depending on how it is implemented.

If the majority wants that I'm all fine with it. Would actually be less work.

 

[Vietthai96]

In my opinion, aside from Type 5 (which actually need to have better description), i'm not like the proposed thing as they are being dumb down from being non-existence in term of philosophical, ontological into something generic scientifical just simply lacking something result non-existence. It destroy the entire meaning of the name Non-existence, and turn it into a generic power. I mean while i'm don't like something too abstract or hard to understand in their term, but this is a freaking harsh dumb down.

Unless i'm misunderstand you again

 

[DontTalkDT]

@RatherClueless What would you think of this solution:

Nonexistent Physiology​

Summary​

Nonexistent Physiology refers to the ability to lack certain aspects of ones existence, to paradoxically 'exist', yet lack any identifiable traits of existence, or exist outside of a particular scope of 'existence'. While true nonexistence in the philosophical sense is impossible to prove, lesser forms of the idea appear often in fiction. Characters of this nature often exist as something beyond the normal scope of the physical and metaphysical worlds, instead existing as an idea or other unconventional state.

Every character with this ability has to lack a physical body or behave as if the physical body is nonexistent*. That means that users virtually always are incorporeal. Incorporeality alone, however, is not enough. The character has to additionally have a combination of at least two of the following types.

Types​

Nature of Nothingness​

1. Material Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a conventional sense. In terms of binary, this would be a 0, where existence is 1 and nonexistence is 0.
2. Idealistic Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a sense beyond conventional nonexistence. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence. Characters of this type typically have some degree of Transduality due to their lack of binary existence.

Aspects of Nonexistence​

1. Spiritual Nonexistence: These characters lack a soul and/or astral body or have one that behaves as if nonexistent*. They are hence immune to regular Soul Manipulation.
2. Conceptual Nonexistence: These characters lack one or multiple concepts necessary for their own existence or have one that behaves as if nonexistent*. They are hence immune to regular manipulation of said concept. Which type of concept should be mentioned on the profile.
3. Mental Nonexistence: These characters lack a mind or have one that behaves as if nonexistent*. The former would mean that they aren't actually sentient. Characters with this type are hence immune to regular Mind Manipulation and related abilities.
4. Information Nonexistence: These characters lack information of a type that is necessary to exist or have some that behave as if nonexistent*. They are hence immune to regular Information Manipulation.
5. Plot Nonexistence: These characters lack a place in the plot of the story or behave as if their plot is nonexistent*. They are hence immune to regular Plot Manipulation.
6. Other: These characters lack some other fundamental aspect that would be necessary for a normal being's existence or have one that behaves as if nonexistent*. Examples would include things like lacking a history. They are hence immune to abilities that target that respective aspect. Which aspect should be mentioned on the profile.

*To behave as if nonexistent means that the characters have the respective aspect in some sense, but paradoxically behave as if they don't when attacked. To qualify for that, a character needs to be stated to be immune to manipulations of that nature due to their nonexistence. An example of that would be a character who is able to think, and hence has a mind, but is stated to be immune to regular mind manipulation as said mind is paradoxically nonexistent in nature. The character doesn't necessarily behave only nonexistent in regard to attacks, but that is the only requirement to gain the respective type.

Note: It is the aspects in which a character is not nonexistent, which makes them into a 'living' character. As such, if a character with this power is reduced to a state in which it can't display any properties of something that exists, it is effectively dead/erased. A consequence of that is that it requires feats or special reasoning for a character with this ability to survive the complete erasure of their plane of existence, as one needs to confirm that they are able to still display some existent properties on a different plane of existence.

In this Hatou would then be listed as "Nonexistent Physiology (Type 1; 6)" or something like that.

 

[Rabbit2002]

What is the difference between material and idealistic ?

 

[DontTalkDT]

In my opinion, aside from Type 5 (which actually need to have better description), i'm not like the proposed thing as they are being dumb down from being non-existence in term of philosophical, ontological into something generic scientifical just simply lacking something result non-existence. It destroy the entire meaning of the name Non-existence, and turn it into a generic power. I mean while i'm don't like something too abstract or hard to understand in their term, but this is a freaking harsh dumb down.

Unless i'm misunderstand you again

Not sure which distinction between philosophical and scientific you mean.

It turns it from an ability with vague requirements to get and vague effects that result from having it, into one where those things are clear. I imagine that makes it simpler to work with, that's the point, but that isn't exactly 'dumbing it down'.

 

[DontTalkDT]

What is the difference between material and idealistic ?

Basically the same as what it is on the current NEP page, except that conceptual nonexistence is split off from idealistic into a separate type that can be combined with it.

Now, if you wonder what the difference is on the current page... yeah, that's part of what this thread tries to clarify. In my proposal above it's that Materialistic is just nonexistence in terms of binary logic, while Idealistic is Nonexistence that is outside of binary logic.

Thinking about it, we should probably clarify what the practical difference is between the uses of the types. Does anyone have suggestions for that?

 

[Andika_CL_atmadja]

so i assume by default each type of nonexistent physiology has it's own weakness ? probably type 2, 5 and 6 (depends on context) is strongest type.

 

[Vietthai96]

Not sure which distinction between philosophical and scientific you mean.

It turns it from an ability with vague requirements to get and vague effects that result from having it, into one where those things are clear. I imagine that makes it simpler to work with, that's the point, but that isn't exactly 'dumbing it down'.

well scientific is...i mean non-existence is now just simply a part of youself somehow not exist and you as a whole still exist, which is why i said dumb down.

 

[DontTalkDT]

well scientific is...i mean non-existence is now just simply a part of youself somehow not exist and you as a whole still exist, which is why i said dumb down.

You forget that it also includes the possibility of parts of yourself existing/nonexisting in a paradoxical state with mixed existence/nonexistence properties.

Aside from that... that was always kinda the case, wasn't it? The nonexistent physiology page stated for ages now that "true nonexistence in the philosophical sense is impossible to prove" and the page hence never was about that.

 

[Regidian]

If a thing lack pratically everyting that is necessary as an existence would it need to be detail each thing it lack in type 6 that isn't in the other 5 type ?

 

[RatherClueless]

And... I mean, what is your proposal for a requirement that excludes vampires, golems, robots etc.? I guess we could demand that NEP users need to be incorporeal, excluding any corporeal character from having the ability (e.g. it would need to be removed from Void Knight) but then incorporeal vampires, golems and robots would still get it.

Exactly that. Vampres/golems/robots/etc that have NEP having NEP isn't really a concern, ngl. Whether lacking a concept should be NEP even with a physical body is . . . debatable ig. Lacking mind and soul while having a body sure as heck isnt.

Yes? As said, any character capable of thinking and taking action isn't truly nonexistent. They are at best a paradox that displays some existent and some nonexistent properties.

Sadly I cant really think of a character that would fit this, but only a phenomenon. In the Never Ending Story, the story itself gets erased, leaving nothing behind. Nothing within the story applies to that part of the story, as it technically isnt ven part of the story anymore. So all laws, concepts, narratives, etc of the story are nonexistent within it. If a character had something like that, would that not qualify? Also, there is no reason as to why a character would always need to be in that state. What if they could turn it on and of? That would still allow them to get indexed while still having. Are there any characters on the wiki like that? idk.

Also, if them paradoxically being NEP is so fundamentally different from "truly" being NEP, shouldnt those get their own ratings?

There is absolutely no reason for mind > soul to be the case. In plenty of fiction the mind is even just a part of the soul.

The soul typically still has some type of "form" to it. The mind itself, without body or soul, is typically fully abstract. A mind is more often then not less tangible than the soul. The mind being a part of the soul isnt really a counter point to that. Anyways, i cant say this on behalf of every piece of fiction out there, but in basically all pieces of fiction I know, the soul tends to be a "more existant" or "more real" thing than the mind. (especially with things like ghosts and stuff like that). Anyways, conceptual stuff should still be put above either, either way.

@RatherClueless What would you think of this solution:

In this Hatou would then be listed as "Nonexistent Physiology (Type 1; 6)" or something like that.

I personally like it. Though I am not sure if it should be limited to transdual things. To go by the current standards:

". . . any abstract state which precedes or opposes the state of existence on all levels"

Should also still qualify, even if its not specifically transdual. Basically the difference of "simply not being" and "not being to a degree that you arent part of reality in any way". Basically existing being 1 (something that has value), not existing being 0 (something with no value, as it doesn't exist, but is still part of reality to some extent) and this type of non existence being -1 (something that doesnt exist to a point where even basic non existence to too much of a value/it removes itself from reality). you could then also have some lesser/different type for paradoxiacal non existence, so you dont need that *.

That's at least my take on that

 

[Antoniofer]

I feel like type 1 NEP is just Incorporeality or Intangibility (Immaterial) and thus consider it unnecesary (although the same can be said about AE, that is Incorporeality + Reliant Immortality).

Type 2 and 4 aren't quite NE in the conventional sense; you can describe them as not existing at spiritual/astral level, but physically/scientifically speaking they pretty much exist, as they very well can be tangible and perceptible. And btw, how do we treat imperceptibility as one NE trait? One may say that if it can be perceived, even if can't be touched, one can't really say it does not exist.