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Ninjago's Tiering Problem

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Minaaaa said:
Never did. My point was that EVERY showing of the weapon's power has been vastly lower than the star feat
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Again, it is comparing apples to the oranges.
Minaaaa said:
Yes, which it why it scales to the MW's AP. Its stronger then than the individual weapons. Fusions are always stronger than the individuals.
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It must be “at least”, but they still don’t have AP feats altogether besides Star feat.
Minaaaa said:
GW feats = MW feats.
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GW feats <<< MW feats.
Minaaaa said:
GW are apart of it man.
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Exactly, Golden Weapon is only a part of Megaweapon.
Minaaaa said:
Shurikens of Ice freezing a room isnt ap? Scythe of Quakes cracking the ground isnt ap?
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For individual Golden Weapon, yes. For Megaweapon/4 Golden Weapons.
Minaaaa said:
Apart of the MW, mw scales to it
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*A part
MW scales much higher than that. If there was no Star feat, we would say “At least Continental Level, likely much higher” due to not knowing how much it is stronger. But we know that.
Minaaaa said:
If they do have a UES, it scales
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UES does not allow you to quantify unquantifiable, nor it allows to compare uncomparable.
Minaaaa said:
Mistype, meant to put 'creating ninjago'
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Okay.
Minaaaa said:
This discussion can continue off site or somewhere else. It clearly isnt going anywhere here and is cluttering up the post
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Trust me, I’m working on this issue
 
I guess if 4-C has to be downgraded I’d make it like 6-A possibly Low 4-C+, since there’s no direct statement that the combined power of the golden weapons/Megaweapon is greater than the sum of its parts, but there’s also nothing that debunks the idea of the Megaweapon being destroyed after it created the star (hence splitting the effort)
 
JJSliderman said:
I guess if 4-C has to be downgraded I’d make it like 6-A possibly Low 4-C+, since there’s no direct statement that the combined power of the golden weapons/Megaweapon is greater than the sum of its parts, but there’s also nothing that debunks the idea of the Megaweapon being destroyed after it created the star (hence splitting the effort)
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This would work for me
 
JJSliderman said:
I guess if 4-C has to be downgraded I’d make it like 6-A possibly Low 4-C+, since there’s no direct statement that the combined power of the golden weapons/Megaweapon is greater than the sum of its parts, but there’s also nothing that debunks the idea of the Megaweapon being destroyed after it created the star (hence splitting the effort)
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Low 4-C+ ? Also I found sum feat that proves the combined power of the GW >>>>> sum of its part
 
Lloydblitzed said:
Low 4-C+ ? Also I found sum feat that proves the combined power of the GW >>>>> sum of its part
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No I mean, the combination of the golden weapons and the Megaweapon, not the combo of the golden weapons vs a single weapon. And small star+ cuz half star level.
 
Lloydblitzed said:
If the GWs is what destroyed the MW, then I don't get the "greater then the sum of its part"
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It destroyed the Megaweapon, but the time at which it was destroyed is unclear, so it could have been destroyed after the star was made, meaning the Megaweapon contributed
 
JJSliderman said:
It destroyed the Megaweapon, but the time at which it was destroyed is unclear, so it could have been destroyed after the star was made, meaning the Megaweapon contributed
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The scene tells us it got destroyed right when the star was made, its energy couldn't contribute
 
JJSliderman said:
It destroyed the Megaweapon, but the time at which it was destroyed is unclear, so it could have been destroyed after the star was made, meaning the Megaweapon contributed
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I will make it clear that Megaweapon could not contribute both by statements and logically, just wait
The only “contributing” it made is that it became a star
 
DaReaperMan said:
Lightly skimming this abomination of an 11-page thread, Bambu literally said all that needs to be said on Megaquakes for me. As for the rest... I think I stopped caring about my review around page 7 because this is more circular then how fiction depicts the rings of Saturn.
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We are working on a blog that explain the star and mergequake feat rn
 
Okay, rereading all of this it looks like that we were all going circular without really wanting to listen to the other side. The main flaw from me was that I didn't really go through the OP points. Let me fix it.
First of all, this blog explains everything regarding Star Level tiering. Both combining and outlier reasonings are addressed there.
Now, let's get to the Mergequakes...
I agree that closing them should NOT be Universal Level+ or Low 2-C, that's absolutely correct. But instead of Minaaa's downgrading attitude, I have quite the opposite one: upgrade it to Low Multiversal Level or 2-C. The reason for this is very simple: Mergequakes are places where two Realms try to occupy the same space, or in simple terms, merge, as stated by Lloyd, twice. As merging Realms counts as significant affecting under the standards of this wiki, demerging them would logically grant the same tier. Regarding OP's "they are only mentioned to destroy the worlds in big quantities"... it does not really matter, it is simply demerging feat which still should scale. Also, I want to note that plural form does not always mean that a big quantity is needed, especially in this type of wording, due to the possibility of it being a generalization to emphasize that all members of a certain group contain suggested property. Or, let's just make it more understandable by giving an example: "Black holes have very strong gravitational pull. Their gravitational pull is so strong that even light can't escape it if light is too close to them". I hope now you understand what I mean. If you really don't, I can elaborate more, just ask kindly.
Now going to Garmadon and Mogra's case, Garmadon gets the scaling due to drinking 5 Moon Teas, with each amplifying the one who drank it tenfold (this is in his profile). Yes, it is temporary, and that is the very reason the only key that gets such rating is "Comics".
Neutral on Mogra, though. It is either should be noted in the profile that he will soon die or something else. I am open to whatever ideas you have on that. Regarding Onis, however...
"They are slowly invading the realms with their cloud of destruction, destroying the life there so they can rule over it."
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Excuse me, but how the scan provided proves your claim? It simply says that he wants for Creation to be gone. I don't see anything that suggests Cloud of Destruction is the means of how to destroy it. Moreover, OP's reasoning itself supports my point: Cloud of Destruction is shown to destroy... nothing. It only showed Petrification and nothing else. I have no clue why people assume that's the reason he does it. "Land of ash" was figurative language... it was stated multiple times that Onis would destroy all of the Realms, like here, here, and here (there were more but this should be sufficient enough).
 
First off, i wanna commend you for taking the time to make this blog. Secondly, id like it if only one person responded to arguments, instead of creating more pages of back and forth.

First off, let's start off with what we know, for sure, about the feat
  • Golden Weapons and Mega Weapon come into contact with each other
  • Weapons shoot into space and through, something, a star is created

We know, 100%, that these things happen, but now we need to know the method by which it happened. Let’s now lay out the point i'm trying to make
  • Mega Weapon and Golden Weapons come into contact with each other (Here and Here)
  • Mega Weapon and Golden Weapons fuse or combine in some way (Here, Here, Here and Here)
  • The Weapons (Golden and Mega) shoot off into space (Here, Here, Here and Here)

So with these, we end up with this chain of events

  1. Ninja use the Golden Weapons against the Mega Weapon
  2. Their powers combine and float towards each other, circling around the Mega Weapon and fusing with it
  3. The energy resulting from the fusion shoots all the Weapons into space, where they explode
  4. Upon that explosion, a star is created
  5. The weapons land on a comet afterwards

Now with it all laid out, it looks rather consistent with what the series and external sources show. The Weapons exploding in space makes sense, since in every showing of them coming into contact with each other, they explode. Now we have other points to address, such as the Time Paradox. This can be solved easily by destroying the Mega Weapon, but also destroying the Golden Weapons too, removing both the Mega Weapon and the Weapons used to create it, therefore preventing both the Ninja and Garmadon from having the weapons, thus fixing it. Now we have Tommy’s statement of the Mega Weapon becoming a star, with this, we can say the Mega Weapon was destroyed upon going into space, but his statements on the Mega Weapon have been inconsistent. From him saying it became a star, to him saying it fused, from him saying they fused and created an asteroid. These statements were made at different points in time (The Mega Weapon becoming a star coming first on September 5th, 2016, The first fusion statement coming on October 10th, 2016 and the final statement coming on November 6th, 2016) and would contradict each other. Which is to say, we really don't know what happened after they left the Ninja and Garmadon in the volcano. If the Golden Weapon made the Mega Weapon explode and make a star, then it wouldn't be flat 4-C as it was the combination of the power of Four Weapons and another Four Weapons with the Mega Weapon. The original four also couldn’t be comparable to it since they were in the golden blob state in season 3, meaning they couldn’t handle the full power of its creation if true.

Again, let's start off with what we know about the Mergequakes.

-The Merge occurs and merges all the realms together
-Due to this, The realms are now trying to share the same space, making reality unstable, causing cracks in reality which we know as Mergequakes.

Now that we know this, what does closing a Mergequake actually do? We know that closing a Mergequake does…. Nothing but close the Mergequake, preventing any damage to the area. We know it doesn’t stop the realms from merging since they already are merged and the mergequakes still happen even after they close one, indicating they do not significantly affect the realms nor affect them on a universal scale, Which is what is needed for Tier 2.

First we have the Mogra feat. I firmly stand that Mogra shouldn't scale to the 5 moon tea amp, considering he was going to die by it. For Garmadon scaling to it, its fine

Next we have the Oni, which your point doesnt really make sense here. We are stated the Oni are destroying the realms. That's all good but HOW are they doing it? We are given a statement by Wu that they are slowly invading the realms with their cloud, which is what is shown in the show and would make sense in destroying the realms, not in a physical sense but just destroying the life there. For example, we have a character that is stated to "Destroy the universe". Now the question would then be to ask, Well HOW are they doing it? Are they destroying all the matter in the universe? Are they gradually invading the universe? The statement by itself doesn't really mean anything or solve the issue of not knowing how this destruction is happening
 
The thing I’ll say about the mergequakes is that I agree they should be downgraded, but to 3-A, since all the realms exist in the same time continuum.

Star feat I agree with downgrading because it is still vague on how much the golden weapons and Megaweapon contributed to the star creation, but since the blog deconfirmed it being an outlier I’m on board with the 6-A possibly Low 4-C+ approach I mentioned earlier.

No comment on the Oni but agree with the moon teas applying to Garmadon fully and Mogra limited.
 
Minaaaa said:
First off, i wanna commend you for taking the time to make this blog. Secondly, id like it if only one person responded to arguments, instead of creating more pages of back and forth.
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Thank you, and fine.
Minaaaa said:
  1. Ninja use the Golden Weapons against the Mega Weapon
  2. Their powers combine and float towards each other, circling around the Mega Weapon and fusing with it
  3. The energy resulting from the fusion shoots all the Weapons into space, where they explode
  4. Upon that explosion, a star is created
  5. The weapons land on a comet afterwards
Click to expand...
Well, it was covered in the blog I sent in Interpretation #3, which is pretty much what you said. The reason why this cannot be the case is due to Golden Weapons still being functional and having its power in Rebooted, even as a blob. So, if your version was correct, Time Paradox would not be successfully solved due to Megaweapon being supposed to be still functional the same way Golden Weapons blob did.
Minaaaa said:
Now with it all laid out, it looks rather consistent with what the series and external sources show. The Weapons exploding in space makes sense, since in every showing of them coming into contact with each other, they explode.
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They usually explode right after the connection. Once they are fused, they no longer behave so. Otherwise this would mean that Garmadon’s Megaweapoj should have exploded all the time… which didn’t happen. I have to disagree with it there.
Minaaaa said:
Now we have other points to address, such as the Time Paradox. This can be solved easily by destroying the Mega Weapon, but also destroying the Golden Weapons too, removing both the Mega Weapon and the Weapons used to create it, therefore preventing both the Ninja and Garmadon from having the weapons, thus fixing it.
Click to expand...
Golden Weapons were still functional as well… and the solution that show explicitly supports is that they needed to destroy the Megaweapon, not the Golden Weapons. But in either case it does not work due to both of them being supposedly functional under your interpretation as I explained earlier.
Minaaaa said:
Now we have Tommy’s statement of the Mega Weapon becoming a star, with this, we can say the Mega Weapon was destroyed upon going into space, but his statements on the Mega Weapon have been inconsistent. From him saying it became a star, to him saying it fused, from him saying they fused and created an asteroid. These statements were made at different points in time and would contradict each other.
Click to expand...
I don’t see a contradiction here, though. If they also created an asteroid additionally to star, it would make feat even more impressive. The other sources and the show explicitly show star too as I provided in the blog. Them fusing does not change anything, really, as Megaweapon was supposed to lose power before it, and we saw it being massively hurt. All in the blog. And, none of what you said contradicts Interpretation #1.
Minaaaa said:
Which is to say, we really don't know what happened after they left the Ninja and Garmadon in the volcano.
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We… do… why did I provide the facts in the beginning of the blog?
Minaaaa said:
If the Golden Weapon made the Mega Weapon explode and make a star, then it wouldn't be flat 4-C as it was the combination of the power of Four Weapons and another Four Weapons with the Mega Weapon. The original four also couldn’t be comparable to it since they were in the golden blob state in season 3, meaning they couldn’t handle the full power of its creation if true.
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And once again, covered in the blog. I think you should try to address blog points more as of right now most of you said was already covered there.
Minaaaa said:
We know it doesn’t stop the realms from merging since they already are merged’ and the mergequakes still happen even after they close one, indicating they do not significantly affect the realms nor affect them on a universal scale, Which is what is needed for Tier 2.
Click to expand...
The realms themselves are still explicitly recognized as distinct, otherwise it wouldn’t be “two Realms trying to share the same space” but rather “area became unstable”. If they were truly one Realm, why would he say “two”? The tentacle monster is also implied to come from another dimension… how is that the case if this is all in one Realm and there shouldn’t be any other dimension? And, how apparent is the fact that in the area where two Realms try to occupy the same space we get a monster from another dimension…
It is more of locations within Realms merging, such as lands, rather than space-times themselves.
Minaaaa said:
First we have the Mogra feat. I firmly stand that Mogra shouldn't scale to the 5 moon tea amp, considering he was going to die by it. For Garmadon scaling to it, its fine
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I don’t know if it is how this works considering there are occasions of Self-Destruction feats scaling to characters on this wiki. But at least we are good on Garmadon scaling to it.
Minaaaa said:
Next we have the Oni, which your point doesnt really make sense here. We are stated the Oni are destroying the realms. That's all good but HOW are they doing it? We are given a statement by Wu that they are slowly invading the realms with their cloud, which is what is shown in the show and would make sense in destroying the realms, not in a physical sense but just destroying the life there. For example, we have a character that is stated to "Destroy the universe". Now the question would then be to ask, Well HOW are they doing it? Are they destroying all the matter in the universe? Are they gradually invading the universe? The statement by itself doesn't really mean anything or solve the issue of not knowing how this destruction is happening
Click to expand...
Again, destroying all the Realms is implies to be a physical destruction of them, as even their powers are described as “destructive”, and their powers are supposed to oppose Dragon’s creation. Never it is said that only life would be erased… Garmadon said that there will be NOTHING left in Hunted. Their power is literally called Destruction. Going back to the Cloud, well, you did the job for me already: their cloud does not show any destructive powers heavily implying it is not the means of destroying the Realms. And the reason they invade everything can be explained by the desire to get rid of potential rivals such as Garmadon, Dragons, and potentially other powerful beings across the Realms.
 
TheOrangeGuy09 said:
The realms themselves are still explicitly recognized as distinct, otherwise it wouldn’t be “two Realms trying to share the same space” but rather “area became unstable”. If they were truly one Realm, why would he say “two”? The tentacle monster is also implied to come from another dimension… how is that the case if this is all in one Realm and there shouldn’t be any other dimension? And, how apparent is the fact that in the area where two Realms try to occupy the same space we get a monster from another dimension…
It is more of locations within Realms merging, such as lands, rather than space-times themselves.
Click to expand...
To add to this, the Tentacle monsters Dimension part was stated twice
 
JJSliderman said:
Star feat I agree with downgrading because it is still vague on how much the golden weapons and Megaweapon contributed to the star creation, but since the blog deconfirmed it being an outlier I’m on board with the 6-A possibly Low 4-C+ approach I mentioned earlier.
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I think the blog clearly explain how each weapons contributed
 
This is kinda what i was trying to avoid by agreeing with JJ's pov. Rather than go on back and forths of "It did this. No, it did this" going on for more pages, we meet somewhere in the middle of both interpretations, which aligns with what he proposed. I am considering moving this to a new thread. I do have two options in mind for the star feat and what to do with it (Which i hope) will stastify both parties (Also i forgot the main feat of the series would scale to them).

For the Mergequakes, i will let other users decide on if the feat is valid or not

For the Mogra Feat, i firmly believe Mogra shouldnt scale to 5 moon tea and only the amount hes shown to be able to handle (Dont remember the exact number but i think its 3). Garmadon scaling to him is fine

For the Oni Feat, i still disagree on them scaling that high. The evidence just isnt there on them destroying the entire realm's space-time.
 
Minaaaa said:
This is kinda what i was trying to avoid by agreeing with JJ's pov. Rather than go on back and forths of "It did this. No, it did this" going on for more pages, we meet somewhere in the middle of both interpretations, which aligns with what he proposed.
Click to expand...
I mean, this is what the whole blog’s purpose was about. It explained the flaws in both outlier and combining reasonings, as well as backing up my interpretation with more evidence and refuting possible counter-arguments that were not even proposed here. So I was quite surprised when you mostly just restated your thesis answering my blog as I was frankly expecting to addressing it, and it kinda seems that its arguments were… ignored.
Minaaaa said:
I am considering moving this to a new thread. I do have two options in mind for the star feat and what to do with it (Which i hope) will stastify both parties (Also i forgot the main feat of the series would scale to them).
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Initially I thought achieving that by proposing the blog I made under the idea of adding it to the verse-page as an explanation and also upgrade of Low 2-C to 2-C mergequake feats. This would solve page problem and make people notice see a big summary of all the counter-arguments to this thread instead of looking for them throughout all of the replies “here and there”. But, eh, I thought it was kinda not allowed? Because we basically already have a thread on the exact same theme, so.
Minaaaa said:
For the Mogra Feat, i firmly believe Mogra shouldnt scale to 5 moon tea and only the amount hes shown to be able to handle (Dont remember the exact number but i think its 3). Garmadon scaling to him is fine
Click to expand...
I mean, Mogra has such statistics but only “temporarily” until eventual death after a short amount of time. This character gets the AP solely due to Self-Destruction, and his only attack scaling to such Attack Potency is self-exploding (although, to be fair, it is his only attack overall, meanwhile Mogra has “stable” scaling to 3 Moon Teas). I think statistics should not be removed entirely, but rather do two keys when one is “stable” (3 Moon Teas) and second one will 100% die soon but still scales to 4-B (needed to put in Notes/Weaknesses that he will die soon). So although I agree that Mogra has to be changed, I don’t agree with the full deletion of the statistics. In my opinion the proposal above I made would be a good solution for Mogra.
And, also, I think you should probably mention in the OP that you now think Garmadon scaling to 5 Moon Teas is fine.
Minaaaa said:
For the Oni Feat, i still disagree on them scaling that high. The evidence just isnt there on them destroying the entire realm's space-time.
Click to expand...
Well, again, give a reason why? Your main argument was that their plan was not to destroy all the Realms but instead erase the life and rule over it, although I gave evidence that their end-goal was indeed the destruction of all Realms, which is consistent with the fact that their power is supposed to oppose Dragons’ creation (which is further consistent with the fact that Golden Power is “basically” Destruction + Creation). Your previous argument under an old thread was that Cloud of Destruction does not destroy anything, and I addressed it too: if they clearly don’t destroy it via Cloud of Destruction, why assume they are supposed to destroy it specifically via Cloud of Destruction in the first place? I simply don’t see on what basis you disagree right now. Either defend old arguments or provide new ones against such scaling.
 
Minaaaa said:
This is kinda what i was trying to avoid by agreeing with JJ's pov. Rather than go on back and forths of "It did this. No, it did this" going on for more pages, we meet somewhere in the middle of both interpretations, which aligns with what he proposed. I am considering moving this to a new thread. I do have two options in mind for the star feat and what to do with it (Which i hope) will stastify both parties (Also i forgot the main feat of the series would scale to them).

For the Mergequakes, i will let other users decide on if the feat is valid or not
Click to expand...
Im asking staff for inputs all over the wiki
Minaaaa said:
For the Mogra Feat, i firmly believe Mogra shouldnt scale to 5 moon tea and only the amount hes shown to be able to handle (Dont remember the exact number but i think its 3). Garmadon scaling to him is fine
Click to expand...
The Mogra part can be replaced with "4-B with Self Destruction"
Minaaaa said:
For the Oni Feat, i still disagree on them scaling that high. The evidence just isnt there on them destroying the entire realm's space-time.
Click to expand...
Many characters got tiers for being able to destroy things by unknow means, this can be the same case for the Onis
 
Lloydblitzed said:
The Mogra part can be replaced with "4-B with Self Destruction"
Click to expand...
I think “stable” key should be added too though
Lloydblitzed said:
Many characters got tiers for being able to destroy things by unknow means, this can be the same case for the Onis
Click to expand...
Onis case is not even that of “unknown”, we know it is via Destruction, we just don’t know what exactly would happen
JJSliderman said:
Some characters have received “potentially” or “possibly” ratings in the past, and I think that could work for the Oni 2-C feat.
Click to expand...
"Should be used to list a statistic for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive. The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be notable, but mild. This term should be used sparingly." I don’t think Onis would qualify here, especially knowing how much of importance is destroying actually for their concept overall (and by concept I mean from the creator’s view, not scaling: the whole idea was that Dragons can create and Onis can destroy, not “invade” or “rule”). The justification for 2-C itself comes from statements. Can’t see how it is “vague” or “non-definitive”.
But anyways that’s far more accurate than 3-A/High 3-A rating.
 
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