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Prime All Might Multiplier - Possible Discussion Thread Rule Addition After?
- Thread starter Kingofwolves999
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Why wouldn't Best Jeanist know anything about All Might's capabilities in his prime? Best Jeanist is 36 meaning he's presumably been a pro hero for several years if he started right after he graduated from U.A.
All Might only sustained his massive injury 5 years before the start of the series.
The Shigaraki that fought Star and Stripe was uninhibited by Erasure and able to fight with the benefit of his Quirks.
The data that was collected during the battle with Star and Stripe was "recording each biosignature and analyzing every Quirk during the fight". What I take that to mean is that All For One with access to his Quirks is drastically inferior to Shigaraki with access to his Quirks, which is a given.
It doesn't necessarily mean that on a physical level that Shigaraki is far stronger than what he was at during the PLW arc. And if he was far stronger in the Star and Stripe arc, then that would make scaling other characters to him in the PLW arc a bit more questionable.
Pretty much. That statement from Garaki is the only one from the list that can be used to indicate that Shigaraki is not comparable to Prime All Might during the PLW arc... but aside from that, the others make no reference to it only being when All Might was injured and weakened.
The statements we have when he's compared to All Might in his prime:
5) Tomura compares himself to All Might in his prime, in terms of toughness/durability. He questions the heroes asking if they think their last attack would have killed All Might in his prime.
6) Jeanist states that Tomura has speed on par with All Might in his prime.
And the ones where he is compared to All Might:
1) Endeavor recognizes Tomura's manevourability in the air and his superhuman jumps as being "Just like... [All Might]".
3) Endeavor claims that Tomura is "as powerful and sturdy as All Might".
4) Tomura warns the heroes against getting too close to him because it'll mean they're "in for an intimate taste of power on par with All Might's."
In both (3) and (4), Tomura is being stated to be as powerful as All Might.
In both (3) and (5), Tomura is stated to be as tough/sturdy as All Might.
In both (1) and (6), Tomura is stated to be as mobile/quick as All Might.
Wouldn't it make a bit more sense if all of these comparisons to All Might was at least in the same ballpark as each other? Why would Endeavour and Shigaraki be comparing him to very different versions of All Might (if the gap was really 60x).
Why would Endeavor say that Shigaraki's body was "beyond Human" and comparable to All Might... if Shigaraki at this time was only as tough as Endeavor himself? Endeavor, who never saw himself as catching up to All Might.
I guess what I'm trying to say that is if Endeavor, who knows All Might's capabilities well since he always tried to surpass him, couldn't tell that there was a difference as big as 60x between All Might pre-injury and post-injury... then maybe there isn't that big of a gap.
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- Thread starter
- #283
Jeanist wouldn’t really know how strong All Might is unless he saw him going all out, which he never has. In public, All Might never used 100% of his power, as noted by Deku when he discovers Air Force. So no one we know of, other than Gran Torino, Nighteye, Tsukauchi and AFO should know how strong he actually was at his peak; essentially, only people that know about OFA. It’s a very different thing to work in the same field as someone and see their career, compared to being a personal, close friend with intimate knowledge of all their abilities.
Same goes for Endeavor, he should not know how strong All Might is unless he has seen 100% Prime All Might. His personal stance on how strong that is can be different from how strong he really is. We don’t know what caused him to realize he couldn’t surpass All Might.
I mean, I suppose so. He was getting stronger through his rage and from getting new quirks over the 1 month timeskip, so it’s likely that the quirks alone are what set him above AFO.
But at the same time, Quirks wouldn’t be the only thing they sense. They should be reading EVERYTHING about him, considering the wording, so you can’t just point to Quirks as the only reason he’s so strong.
Not to mention, this is still ignoring the High End that was in that fight alongside him. He was still taking damage alongside that High End against Star, but now against people that can rip High Ends apart and hurt them, he’s completely immune. Even when Suneater combines Nejire’s energy into a super Plasma Cannon, energy which by itself could harm the High Ends 75-97% Shigaraki was comparable to, he just walks it off like it did nothing, mocking them about his Prime AM durability. Which implies such a vast difference in power that he can be no less than unimaginably more powerful than before.
For his durability to get shot through the roof in such a short time only makes sense because his rage progressed him that far, at a rate that surpassed Garaki’s expectations, especially since he wasn’t showcasing any of his “Growth” abilities in the Star battle. So the metrics for how strong he is in the final fight vs the Star fight aren’t showing the whole picture of what he went through.
Not to mention, 97% Shigaraki is still “not quite All Might” level in strength. Even though he’s noted as far stronger than Kamino AFO (through a mix of quirk AND body), Star, who is similarly “not as strong as All Might” can still overpower him.So there’s a big contradiction here where some people say “he’s as strong and tough as All Might,” only for him to then get overpowered by someone not as strong as All Might.
I get the point is “the gap between Prime and Weakened can’t be that big if they’re confusing his power,” but at the same time, the only metric spawned, that could come from All Might himself, is his speed. Even in chapter 385, they only make mention of his mobility, no one on the heroes side ever says his strength is on par with AM yet.
Every other statement post-Star fight about his actual strength and durability is coming from Shigaraki, except for the data book one from Hawks, which even then is still about Complete Shigaraki.
The Growth ability, on top of Shigaraki’s mid-battle evolution to a more defensive form, lends itself that Shigaraki’s body could simply have evolved to be immensely more durable and powerful than before, and if it did, there really isn’t a way to claim it can’t be a 60x increase, since there is no true limit on Prime All Might’s AP gap over the people “not quite his level.”
Also Endeavor saying his body is “beyond human,” when at the same time, he’s withstanding direct hits from the guy and can hurt him with punches, even outmaneuvering and pinning him down, is ridiculously strange. He’s likely saying that because he has no Quirk that’s making him that strong, not because he’s literally unimaginably stronger than everyone else including the High Ends.
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Just want to quickly clarify, that's not quite right. Deku clarifies that All Might wasn't using 100% all the time, because if he did then every motion of his would produce huge shockwaves like he does with his 100% punches.
All Might still would have been using his real strength in actual battles.
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- #285
Yeah, but at the same time, the amount of power he shows off can’t be anything higher than what his weakened self shows off already. So that’s not really evidence that the gap between them is small, as it just means he never used more power than what his Weakened self has shown.
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But one explanation for why he doesn't show off drastically more power than what his Weakened self has shown is because he's not actually sixty times more powerful.
Is there any evidence that All Might in his prime never used his full strength?
This is only because we currently assume all High-Ends and Near High-Ends are equally durable... When it's not impossible that the flying one accompanying Tomura is as tough as he is and the other High-Ends aren't necessarily as tough as he is.
As a hypothetical, would any scaling complications really arise from treating that one Flying Near High-End separately from the rest?
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Is there evidence that he did? We can't prove a negative.
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- #288
That’s a negative though, you can’t prove the opposite that he did?
And why would that one Near High End ever be different from the others? When is it ever implied to be stronger for that exception to be made?
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Fair, sorry, didn't mean to ask that. I meant more have we ever seen any indication that All Might always holds himself back? Izuku's statement indicated to me that All Might does use 100% of his strength, as that's what creates the enormous shockwaves from his attacks. He can also not use 100% of his strength like when he casually dispatched the Headgear villain.
But to assert that he never used 100% of his strength outside of his battles with All For One seems like a dubious claim. There's no given reason for why he would do that.
Each Nomu has different Quirks. While I can't say that it is concretely different, each Nomu by definition has differences from other Nomu depending on the Quirks they use so it's not unreasonable for it to be different from the other Nomu.
No other Nomu has displayed levels of durability comparable to it, right?
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- #290
To adjust the High Ends, AFO would either have to give it durability enhancing quirks or perform the operation that gives the Nomu enhanced durability in the first place.
The first one is never implied, and if he could do that; he would have just given that Quirk to Shigaraki, and he doesn’t know how to do the other. So the idea that that Nomu is just special comes from nowhere.
The first one is never implied, and if he could do that; he would have just given that Quirk to Shigaraki, and he doesn’t know how to do the other. So the idea that that Nomu is just special comes from nowhere.
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It's not directly implied, but it's also not something that can be ruled out. It's not like we have a statement that this Nomu is no more durable than any other Nomu either.
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@Kingofwolves999 I know we're in the middle of a discussion, but I've been rereading the series and I might have found something that could help with this. I'm not entirely sure if it is completely consistent though, so I'm just double-checking.
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The issue with this take is that Deku himself can create shockwaves at 20% power.
All Might can create giant shockwaves of pressure WITHOUT being 100%. Maybe he has used 100% in a fight, but if people are way below him, the difference in power will seem the exact same unless there is an explicit example of his Prime Shockwaves vs his Weakened Shockwaves.
Endeavor says that Shigaraki moves like All Might after seeing him use a shockwave, made of pure strength, to bounce off the air; something Deku himself can do already at 45%. Using shockwaves to scale how strong Prime AM was just doesn’t make sense to me when there are heavily varying levels to it.
For instance, when All Might punched away a hurricane, that’s an insane feat to many people in the verse. With pure strength, he can change the weather, so to them, they will never be as strong as him. He can do things with pure strength and air pressure that no one else can… but none of that is anything his Weakened key can’t also do. So for him to need to have brought that much power out at all, especially when the point of Prime All Might was that he was literally invincible to everyone, doesn’t make much sense.
This is asking me to prove a negative, you have to prove this Nomu is more durable not the other way around. This is a NEAR High End, it’s not even completely done yet besides it’s stats, why would it be more durable than the fully complete High Ends? Is there a Quirk that latently boosts durability that it has of some kind? A Quirk that has NEVER been shown in the series?
And durability increasing Quirk has been explicit in how it does so, such as one of the High Ends using increased bones to make a shield. For this Nomu to not use anything like that, and instead the takeaway he “he’s just special,” is ridiculous to me personally.
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Heck, in the Sports Festival, Endeavor compares Deku’s FINGER FLICKS to All Might as well. He says that Deku is on par with All Might after only seeing his finger attacks, because of the shockwaves he creates.
Endeavor does not seem reliable on how strong Prime All Might really is if he’s saying Deku’s showings in the Sports Festival are impressive at all compared to All Might.
Endeavor does not seem reliable on how strong Prime All Might really is if he’s saying Deku’s showings in the Sports Festival are impressive at all compared to All Might.
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The High-End isn't shown to be special in anyway. You're making an assumption that it's special or more durable, yet lack any proof of this.
The Burden of Proof lies on you Damage.
Same is true for All Might and his Prime strength. The series makes it very clear that All Might's power has dropped massively and you haven't provided any tangible that actually supports your point beyond speculation of certain things. Regardless of what this means, 300 versus 60 hits is a clear difference in strength.
The movie's graph dropped so low that David was shocked and didn't understand how All Might was getting so weak so fast. He even invented a machine because he knew of All Might's weakening strength and wanted to return him to his prime level of power.
Wolfram, a lower tier character, was boosted up to Weakened All Might level because of that device. And David believed it'd bring him back to his prime.
Complete Shigaraki can tank attacks that can dismember High-Ends, who have comparable durability to his 75% self. And was able to effortless crush Bakugo's arm. The raw power of his arm moving past Bakugo's face injured him. And was able to inflict a heavy injury on Mirko from the air pressure from his attack.
Note: I'm not advocating for the 60x multiplier, I'm still going to hold off on that. But trying to say the gap between All Might's power isn't a large one is absurd to me.
The only confirmed fight Prime All Might had when going all out was against AFO. The fact no one noticed his dropping power means he's never struggled or gone all out in the public's view. Since the series has made it clear that he has indeed gotten very weak in comparison to his prime.
How much? IDK, but trying to imply it isn't noticeable at all is absurd. That's the only conclusion I can draw from this.
The Burden of Proof lies on you Damage.
Same is true for All Might and his Prime strength. The series makes it very clear that All Might's power has dropped massively and you haven't provided any tangible that actually supports your point beyond speculation of certain things. Regardless of what this means, 300 versus 60 hits is a clear difference in strength.
The movie's graph dropped so low that David was shocked and didn't understand how All Might was getting so weak so fast. He even invented a machine because he knew of All Might's weakening strength and wanted to return him to his prime level of power.
Wolfram, a lower tier character, was boosted up to Weakened All Might level because of that device. And David believed it'd bring him back to his prime.
Complete Shigaraki can tank attacks that can dismember High-Ends, who have comparable durability to his 75% self. And was able to effortless crush Bakugo's arm. The raw power of his arm moving past Bakugo's face injured him. And was able to inflict a heavy injury on Mirko from the air pressure from his attack.
Note: I'm not advocating for the 60x multiplier, I'm still going to hold off on that. But trying to say the gap between All Might's power isn't a large one is absurd to me.
The only confirmed fight Prime All Might had when going all out was against AFO. The fact no one noticed his dropping power means he's never struggled or gone all out in the public's view. Since the series has made it clear that he has indeed gotten very weak in comparison to his prime.
How much? IDK, but trying to imply it isn't noticeable at all is absurd. That's the only conclusion I can draw from this.
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@TheRustyOne; thanks for the response. I'm working on an extended summary now with as many relevant scans as I can gather to try and make a final explanation/argument, after that I'll be done.
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If your final explanation/argument gets debunked does that mean you'll accept the 60× multiplier?
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cook
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Help with what?
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Wrong message
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Good suggestion, will get on that.
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Let's recap everything about what we know about All Might's level of power from the start;
1) All Might reveals his injury to Deku which he got 5 years ago from All For One. Because of this injury All Might can only maintain his hero activity for three hours a day. It isn't directly said here that All Might's usage of his Quirk is any weaker than prior to five years ago but there's an implication of it as he can't be a fulltime hero. All Might keeps the details of his injury secret. If he were significantly weaker than usual, then this would be a harder secret to keep.
2) In the U.S.J. arc, All Might mentions that he's been steadily weakening since he passed on his Quirk to Izuku. This makes sense; since he's not actually in possession of the Quirk anymore he's working off of the embers that are left to him. He also claims to no longer be as fast as he used to be.
3) Aizawa compares the strength of the U.S.J. Nomu to All Might. At this point, All Might passing on his Quirk is a secret known only to a couple like the Principal and Tsukachi and we have no reason to believe Aizawa is aware that All Might is weakening. He has to be comparing the Nomu to what he knows of All Might.
4) Tomura points that when All Might shows up at the U.S.J., that his speed (while impressive) is not as fast as could be expected from All Might. He wonders if it is true that All Might is weakening. At this point, All Might had gone over his three hour time limit for using One For All.
5) Tomura claims that Nomu is as powerful as All Might is. And that Nomu is designed to withstand everything All Might has got.
6) All Might barely has a minute left available to him to use One For All; he claims to be weakening even more than before.
Here's where things get a bit weird;
7) All Might acknowledges that the Nomu is built to withstand everything he's got... So he forces himself to beyond his full power. Izuku, who personally witnessed All Might's 100% power up close, acknowledges that All Might is using his full strength here and that he's throwing out punches above 100%.
8) All Might states that "in my heyday, five of those punches would have been enough." But he had to use "over 300 hits just now."
9) After witnessing All Might's display of power, Tomura claims that All Might hasn't weakened at all. He also asserts to All For One that All Might seemed perfectly healthy, although All For One knows otherwise.
10) Dr. Garaki also claims that they went through a lot of trouble to make the U.S.J. Nomu as strong as All Might.
11) Tomura points out that 100% Izuku seemed to be as fast as All Might.
Some other statements we get;
12) Endeavour points out that Izuku's Quirk seems to be on par with All Might's Quirk after witnessing his 100% power finger-flick. This doesn't mean that what Izuku did was as strong as one of All Might's punches exactly, but Endeavor who knows All Might's strength as well as any pro hero should, thinks that Izuku's 100% is comparable to All Might and at this point he shouldn't have any reason to suspect that All Might is weakening.
13) This isn't directly related to All Might, but All For One clarifies that the three Hosu City Nomu are not on the same level as the U.S.J. Nomu despite one of the three Hosu City Nomu also being a Upper Tier Nomu, showing that even Nomu of the same class can have significant strength differences. This makes sense since Upper Tier Nomu are stated to be ten times stronger than ordinary people but the U.S.J. Nomu is drastically far above that kind of strength.
14) Izuku claims that his 100% Smash is All Might's power. He remembers that time that All Might surpassed 100% of his own power, and that allows him to do the same to defeat Muscular. He later recalls Muscular as the guy who could still stand after taking a 100% Smash.
15) All For One insinuates that All Might isn't as fast as he used to be judging by how long it took him to cross 5 kilometers after the Nomu were sent to his location.
16) All For One comments that All Might can't fight at full power against him, though the context is looking like All Might is restricted from causing too much collateral damage due to all the civilians in the area he has to protect.
17) All For One thinks that trading blows with All Might allowed him to finally confirm his suspicions that All Might gave his Quirk away and he's just been relying on the embers of One For All.
18) Izuku compares his Faux 100% to All Might's speed.
And now we add on the statements for Shigaraki and Star and Stripe from the last couple arcs:
19) Endeavour recognizes Tomura's manevourability in the air and his superhuman jumps as being "Just like... [All Might]".
20) Dr. Garaki claims that Tomura is "not quite on par with All Might, sadly."
21) Endeavour claims that Tomura is "as powerful and sturdy as All Might".
23) Star and Stripe claims that she can't power herself up to All Might's level, but she's "not too shabby".
24) Jeanist states that Tomura has speed on par with All Might in his prime.
25) Tomura warns the heroes against getting too close to him because it'll mean they're "in for an intimate taste of power on par with All Might's."
26) Tomura compares himself to All Might in his prime, in terms of toughness/durability. He questions the heroes asking if they think their last attack would have killed All Might in his prime.
27) The Hawks villain report claims that Shigaraki has physical ability on par with All Might in his heyday.
An extra statement I found in Vigilantes:
28) All For One states his intention to create an entity that can "face the mightiest hero head-on and force him to his knees through its individual might.", showing the original U.S.J. Nomu being created.
The movie graph;
29) We don't get an exact explanation of what the meaning of the graph is in the Two Heroes movie. We have to rely on our own interpretation a bit and align it to the info we're given in the manga;
This is a ton of info to sort together about All Might's level of power throughout the manga and how different characters are compared to him. I'll try to point out some things that leap out to me right away:
But what if the 300 hits weren't just for the Energy Absorption? Part of this page that leaps out to me is that Kirishima says:
- "He just smashed his way past the absorption. The ultimate bruiser... And against that power... the regeneration wasn't able to keep up with that rush of attacks..."
If all 300 punches did nothing to the Nomu itself until the very last punch because all of the energy of All Might's blows were being absorbed... then why this sentence? The regeneration wouldn't factor into it at all... unless All Might was dealing some amount of damage with his rush of attacks. Since the Nomu is described as a "sandbag that can withstand everything you've got", and All Might's response to that is to "go beyond that" then this lines up. The U.S.J. Nomu can absorb 100% All Might's strikes... but Plus Ultra All Might is more than he can absorb. By surpassing the Nomu's limits, All Might is able to deal some damage to the Nomu with his barrage of attacks which stacks up faster than the Nomu's regeneration can deal with until the Nomu gets blasted out of the area. What this means is that an attack that's more powerful than his Plus Ultra punches would've had all that extra power be delivered straight to the Nomu as direct damage. If for example 95% of Plus Ultra All Might's punches were getted absorbed by the Nomu's Quirk, then a punch that is 5x stronger than that would have had only 19% of its energy be absorbed, making each blow 16 times more damaging.
I'm aware this is similar to what's been brought up on the previous pages but I wanted to get this particular line addressed. It seems like direct expositional talk of how All Might actually won against the U.S.J. Nomu and it does not require All Might to be 60x stronger in his prime.
TL;DR; Ending the fight in 60x less attacks doesn't require the attacks to be 60x more powerful.
Also, I'm not going to rely on the anime because I believe that non-canon alterations to the original scenes aren't ironclad proof of anything - but it seems like someone on the anime team thought along the same lines as what is above, because when All Might is delivering his series of punches to the Nomu we can see the Nomu visibly reacting more and more and being pushed by All Might's barrage. If it was intended for the absorption to absorb the entirety of All Might's strikes no matter what until the end, then this seems like a huge oversight/change... unless this was the intended meaning of All Might's and Kirishima's words. I just want to put this out there for full context, but my argument doesn't depend on the anime but the manga-original statements anyway.
I apologize for rambling on but I wanted to get the full coverage of statements, so I'll just ask that people read the above carefully and let me know if there's anything pertinent that I've missed off from here.
@Qawsedf234 @Maverick_Zero_X @DemonGodMitchAubin @Therefir @CloverDragon03 @TheRustyOne
You've all given opinions or votes so far on the thread (though some of you are neutral) so I won't beg you to comment in response to this if you don't want to, but I want to ask if you think what I've posted above seems reasonable or not. If we go with the 60x multiplier, how do we reconcile the information given in the Two Heroes graph?
1) All Might reveals his injury to Deku which he got 5 years ago from All For One. Because of this injury All Might can only maintain his hero activity for three hours a day. It isn't directly said here that All Might's usage of his Quirk is any weaker than prior to five years ago but there's an implication of it as he can't be a fulltime hero. All Might keeps the details of his injury secret. If he were significantly weaker than usual, then this would be a harder secret to keep.
2) In the U.S.J. arc, All Might mentions that he's been steadily weakening since he passed on his Quirk to Izuku. This makes sense; since he's not actually in possession of the Quirk anymore he's working off of the embers that are left to him. He also claims to no longer be as fast as he used to be.
3) Aizawa compares the strength of the U.S.J. Nomu to All Might. At this point, All Might passing on his Quirk is a secret known only to a couple like the Principal and Tsukachi and we have no reason to believe Aizawa is aware that All Might is weakening. He has to be comparing the Nomu to what he knows of All Might.
4) Tomura points that when All Might shows up at the U.S.J., that his speed (while impressive) is not as fast as could be expected from All Might. He wonders if it is true that All Might is weakening. At this point, All Might had gone over his three hour time limit for using One For All.
5) Tomura claims that Nomu is as powerful as All Might is. And that Nomu is designed to withstand everything All Might has got.
6) All Might barely has a minute left available to him to use One For All; he claims to be weakening even more than before.
Here's where things get a bit weird;
7) All Might acknowledges that the Nomu is built to withstand everything he's got... So he forces himself to beyond his full power. Izuku, who personally witnessed All Might's 100% power up close, acknowledges that All Might is using his full strength here and that he's throwing out punches above 100%.
8) All Might states that "in my heyday, five of those punches would have been enough." But he had to use "over 300 hits just now."
9) After witnessing All Might's display of power, Tomura claims that All Might hasn't weakened at all. He also asserts to All For One that All Might seemed perfectly healthy, although All For One knows otherwise.
10) Dr. Garaki also claims that they went through a lot of trouble to make the U.S.J. Nomu as strong as All Might.
11) Tomura points out that 100% Izuku seemed to be as fast as All Might.
Some other statements we get;
12) Endeavour points out that Izuku's Quirk seems to be on par with All Might's Quirk after witnessing his 100% power finger-flick. This doesn't mean that what Izuku did was as strong as one of All Might's punches exactly, but Endeavor who knows All Might's strength as well as any pro hero should, thinks that Izuku's 100% is comparable to All Might and at this point he shouldn't have any reason to suspect that All Might is weakening.
13) This isn't directly related to All Might, but All For One clarifies that the three Hosu City Nomu are not on the same level as the U.S.J. Nomu despite one of the three Hosu City Nomu also being a Upper Tier Nomu, showing that even Nomu of the same class can have significant strength differences. This makes sense since Upper Tier Nomu are stated to be ten times stronger than ordinary people but the U.S.J. Nomu is drastically far above that kind of strength.
14) Izuku claims that his 100% Smash is All Might's power. He remembers that time that All Might surpassed 100% of his own power, and that allows him to do the same to defeat Muscular. He later recalls Muscular as the guy who could still stand after taking a 100% Smash.
15) All For One insinuates that All Might isn't as fast as he used to be judging by how long it took him to cross 5 kilometers after the Nomu were sent to his location.
16) All For One comments that All Might can't fight at full power against him, though the context is looking like All Might is restricted from causing too much collateral damage due to all the civilians in the area he has to protect.
17) All For One thinks that trading blows with All Might allowed him to finally confirm his suspicions that All Might gave his Quirk away and he's just been relying on the embers of One For All.
18) Izuku compares his Faux 100% to All Might's speed.
And now we add on the statements for Shigaraki and Star and Stripe from the last couple arcs:
19) Endeavour recognizes Tomura's manevourability in the air and his superhuman jumps as being "Just like... [All Might]".
20) Dr. Garaki claims that Tomura is "not quite on par with All Might, sadly."
21) Endeavour claims that Tomura is "as powerful and sturdy as All Might".
23) Star and Stripe claims that she can't power herself up to All Might's level, but she's "not too shabby".
24) Jeanist states that Tomura has speed on par with All Might in his prime.
25) Tomura warns the heroes against getting too close to him because it'll mean they're "in for an intimate taste of power on par with All Might's."
26) Tomura compares himself to All Might in his prime, in terms of toughness/durability. He questions the heroes asking if they think their last attack would have killed All Might in his prime.
27) The Hawks villain report claims that Shigaraki has physical ability on par with All Might in his heyday.
An extra statement I found in Vigilantes:
28) All For One states his intention to create an entity that can "face the mightiest hero head-on and force him to his knees through its individual might.", showing the original U.S.J. Nomu being created.
The movie graph;
29) We don't get an exact explanation of what the meaning of the graph is in the Two Heroes movie. We have to rely on our own interpretation a bit and align it to the info we're given in the manga;
- 6 years ago is the date that All Might had his fateful battle with All For One and sustained massive injuries. There is an initial drop of 2097 AP following his injury, which on a scale of 15,000 AP for Prime All Might's previous Quirk numbers means a drop of roughly 14%.
- Over the next 5+ years, All Might's Quirk numbers steadily dropped to about 8000 AP roughly. This would put him at roughly 53% of his original power by the time he meets Izuku.
- The next big drop is of 4158 AP, and this event must be him transferring One For All to Izuku and forcing him to rely on just the diminishing embers of One For All. After David questions how All Might's Quirk numbers could be dropping so drastically, All Might thinks to himself that he can't reveal the true nature of One For All to David showing that it is the fact that he transferred it away which explains the drop in Quirk numbers. This drop puts All Might at around 3000 AP or 1/5th of his original power that he had in his Prime.
This is a ton of info to sort together about All Might's level of power throughout the manga and how different characters are compared to him. I'll try to point out some things that leap out to me right away:
- Several characters seemingly don't notice a substantial difference between All Might prior to his injury and All Might after his injury; this includes Endeavor who has an extremely long history with All Might, Tomura who after witnessing All Might defeat his Nomu thinks that All Might hasn't gotten any weaker, Aizawa who thinks that the Nomu overpowering him is comparable to All Might.
- Additionally, Endeavor considers 75% Shigaraki to be as powerful/sturdy/mobile as All Might based off his encounter in the PLW arc, and Jeanist claims that Shigaraki is as fast as All Might in his prime based off the battles during the PLW arc and the Star and Stripe arc.
- While it's possible that All Might simply never displayed his full strength to anyone at any point over his decades-long hero career... Why would he does this? Why would he always fight at no more than 1/60th of his full power? Tomura claims that everyone should remember how durable All Might was during his prime... And Best Jeanist seemingly indicates that they know how fast All Might was in his prime. So why would the only stat that is excluded from their awareness be his strength in his prime?
- All For One and Dr. Garaki should have an extremely good idea of how strong All Might is. They believed that the U.S.J. Nomu they created is on par with All Might, and even in the Vigilantes manga, All For One stated his goal was to command a creature that could beat All Might with sheer physical might. If they created a Nomu who was 60x weaker than what All For One remembers All Might being like... then why would they have such confidence in it? Remember that All For One only had suspicions that All Might gave away his Quirk, and we don't know when he first had those suspicions. He may have only started to have them after hearing from Tomura that Izuku was just as fast as All Might.
- After he gave away his Quirk to Izuku, All Might lost over half of his "Quirk Numbers" that he had remaining according to David's graph. Yet despite that drop, All Might could fight with over 100% of his power that he displayed back before he had given his Quirk away to Deku... He was actively weakening as the seconds went by, and remember that one blow from the Nomu could seemingly badly damage All Might and knock him back. And because he used so much power, Tomura second-guesses his earlier assessment of All Might and thinks that All Might isn't any weaker after all. So essentially, it can be seen as:
- Prime All Might ~ Plus Ultra All Might (U.S.J. Arc) >>> 100% All Might in Ch. 1 >>> All Might (U.S.J. Arc)
But what if the 300 hits weren't just for the Energy Absorption? Part of this page that leaps out to me is that Kirishima says:
- "He just smashed his way past the absorption. The ultimate bruiser... And against that power... the regeneration wasn't able to keep up with that rush of attacks..."
If all 300 punches did nothing to the Nomu itself until the very last punch because all of the energy of All Might's blows were being absorbed... then why this sentence? The regeneration wouldn't factor into it at all... unless All Might was dealing some amount of damage with his rush of attacks. Since the Nomu is described as a "sandbag that can withstand everything you've got", and All Might's response to that is to "go beyond that" then this lines up. The U.S.J. Nomu can absorb 100% All Might's strikes... but Plus Ultra All Might is more than he can absorb. By surpassing the Nomu's limits, All Might is able to deal some damage to the Nomu with his barrage of attacks which stacks up faster than the Nomu's regeneration can deal with until the Nomu gets blasted out of the area. What this means is that an attack that's more powerful than his Plus Ultra punches would've had all that extra power be delivered straight to the Nomu as direct damage. If for example 95% of Plus Ultra All Might's punches were getted absorbed by the Nomu's Quirk, then a punch that is 5x stronger than that would have had only 19% of its energy be absorbed, making each blow 16 times more damaging.
I'm aware this is similar to what's been brought up on the previous pages but I wanted to get this particular line addressed. It seems like direct expositional talk of how All Might actually won against the U.S.J. Nomu and it does not require All Might to be 60x stronger in his prime.
TL;DR; Ending the fight in 60x less attacks doesn't require the attacks to be 60x more powerful.
Also, I'm not going to rely on the anime because I believe that non-canon alterations to the original scenes aren't ironclad proof of anything - but it seems like someone on the anime team thought along the same lines as what is above, because when All Might is delivering his series of punches to the Nomu we can see the Nomu visibly reacting more and more and being pushed by All Might's barrage. If it was intended for the absorption to absorb the entirety of All Might's strikes no matter what until the end, then this seems like a huge oversight/change... unless this was the intended meaning of All Might's and Kirishima's words. I just want to put this out there for full context, but my argument doesn't depend on the anime but the manga-original statements anyway.
I apologize for rambling on but I wanted to get the full coverage of statements, so I'll just ask that people read the above carefully and let me know if there's anything pertinent that I've missed off from here.
@Qawsedf234 @Maverick_Zero_X @DemonGodMitchAubin @Therefir @CloverDragon03 @TheRustyOne
You've all given opinions or votes so far on the thread (though some of you are neutral) so I won't beg you to comment in response to this if you don't want to, but I want to ask if you think what I've posted above seems reasonable or not. If we go with the 60x multiplier, how do we reconcile the information given in the Two Heroes graph?
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Not every statement or scan is completely relevant, but I didn't want to miss anything out in case it could help us either way. I just reread the manga today looking for any mention of All Might's power, speed, weakening, prime, etc.
And in the end, there is so much info to pick through that I get if someone has a different interpretation to me when it comes to this.
Serlock_Holmes
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I agree with this. Nice work.
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Let me put on my reading glasses lol
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I mean, having your organs destroyed makes you a LOT weaker.
Agree.
Either that, or what he knows of him since his injury. Likely not his full power either way.
Agree
This suggests that the amount of power known for All Might(since the injury) is roughly equivalent to Plus Ultra Weakened All Might
Agree
So his prime is much, much stronger than his Weakened Plus Ultra.
This suggests Tomura didn't know his full power at the time, while AFO did.
Dr. Garaki likely had a better knowledge of the injured condition of All Might than Shigaraki.
Likely in reference to his USJ performance
He likely means the Quirk specifically, not Izuku's current state, he means potential, like how he thinks his son has a better Quirk than All Might.
That's still =< High Ends iirc
He says it's All Might's power because it literally is the same power, even if weaker.
Btw, he could go 9 Kilometers in 1 second in his prime.
AFO is > USJ Nomu iirc
Do we have evidence that "Quirk Power" is linear?
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@SlendVeny LOL, You didn't quite need to respond to each individual statement but I appreciate the analysis.
Ayewale
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I'm honestly pretty shocked that this wasn't a thing before. Good post OP.
In any case, I'll be voting for the 60x multiplier since it seems abundantly clear from the manga that this is the case. Taking it as an outlier makes no sense since it's literally the only indication of All Might's Prime that we've got, bar a Tomura Shigaraki that stomps the shit out of everyone.
In any case, I'll be voting for the 60x multiplier since it seems abundantly clear from the manga that this is the case. Taking it as an outlier makes no sense since it's literally the only indication of All Might's Prime that we've got, bar a Tomura Shigaraki that stomps the shit out of everyone.
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Updated OP a bit to reflect the overall agreement on the 60x = splatter thing as that took up a big portion of the OP and is essentially pointless now.
Should I also update the votes/add a new vote based on whether the 60x multiplier is consistent rather than if it exists at all?
Because it seems the issue no longer is “what he did vs Nomu wouldn’t constitute a 60x multiplier” and is more so “a 60x multiplier is inconsistent based on other showings.” Or are the two the same? Idk thread has gone on really long and a lot of different points have been getting argued.
I will get to all of Damage’s points in a bit, but Slend has covered them pretty great so far, just want to give my own two centsassuming no one else does it for me.
Should I also update the votes/add a new vote based on whether the 60x multiplier is consistent rather than if it exists at all?
Because it seems the issue no longer is “what he did vs Nomu wouldn’t constitute a 60x multiplier” and is more so “a 60x multiplier is inconsistent based on other showings.” Or are the two the same? Idk thread has gone on really long and a lot of different points have been getting argued.
I will get to all of Damage’s points in a bit, but Slend has covered them pretty great so far, just want to give my own two cents
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Except for Damage’s last few paragraphs, never mind not updating vote, I’ve been reading too much and missed that.
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I will say this before the big post I have to make:
High Ends are stronger than USJ Nomu. So if AFO and Garaki say USJ Nomu is as strong as Prime All Might, then that means all the High Ends are stronger than Prime All Might, which means Mirko is stronger than Prime All Might, which means… 75% Shigaraki is stronger than Prime All Might.
Is this a correct conclusion I am achieving from some of the points I’ve already read, Damage? Or can you clarify this?
High Ends are stronger than USJ Nomu. So if AFO and Garaki say USJ Nomu is as strong as Prime All Might, then that means all the High Ends are stronger than Prime All Might, which means Mirko is stronger than Prime All Might, which means… 75% Shigaraki is stronger than Prime All Might.
Is this a correct conclusion I am achieving from some of the points I’ve already read, Damage? Or can you clarify this?
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We have no reason to believe that anyone that isn't close to allmight would ever be able to tell that allmights power has decreased.
Again, if you're saying that aizawa is comparing the Nomu to prime allmight, Aizawa would not be able to tell the difference between the weakened and prime allmight. Seeing as the difference between between him and weakened allmight is already unimaginably big, and there would be no reason for him to have ever seen prime allmight go all out before as the only time we know prime allmight went all out was against prime afo when he also got weakened and we have no reason to believe he has needed to do so before that.
9) Shigaraki woupd have no knowledge of prime allmights strengh, and as you said afo, who does have that knowledge, does believe allmight is weakened.
10) With the hopes of encountering a weakened allmight
11) Shigaraki again is not a good source for this + this would be wrong no matter what.
Kirashima isn't a good source for this, especially since he wouldn't even be able to keep track of what's going on. We also didn't ever see the nomu regen or try to regen or fall back or flinch. We have no indication to believe that the nomu wasn't absorbing the punches as we're told. And allmights response of "go beyond that" makes more sense with going beyond the nomus absorption limit seeing as it's in the same panel of allmight himself mentioning the nomus limit.
And along all of that, the argument of prime allmight and this weakened allmight being actually somewhat close is just not backed up and we're continually and constantly shown and told that prime allmight and prime allmight characters like shigaraki are an entire different league from weakened allmight and weakened allmight characters like high end nomus and the top heroes.
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I can trying clarifying in greater detail tomorrow, but to quickly clarify;
I don't believe that the U.S.J. Nomu is actually 100% equal to Prime All Might, I think that it is somewhat comparable but inferior because I don't believe the gap between Prime All Might and All Might through most of the series is monstrously high.
All For One wanted a creature that could take on the top hero one on and one and stand a chance when it comes to physicals. In terms of raw durability, he evidently wasn't confident that it could shrug off All Might's blows like nothing because he gave it Shock Absorption and the ability to regenerate from the damage All Might did to it. Still, both he and Garaki expressed confidence that the U.S.J. Nomu stood a real chance against All Might - and at this point they wouldn't have known that All Might passed on his Quirk and was weakening drastically compared to before.
They did say they underestimated All Might, and Plus Ultra All Might did more damage to the Nomu than the Nomu did to Plus Ultra All Might. So Plus Ultra All Might is stronger than the U.S.J. Nomu and therefor Prime All Might is too. But what I'm saying is that it doesn't make as much sense to me for the gap to be extremely huge.
I do not believe that Mirko is stronger than Prime All Might; whether the power gap is 60x or 5x or something else altogether, I can say that I don't think Mirko > Prime All Might.
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So you believe that, when AFO/Garaki claim that they made USJ Nomu as strong as All Might, that they were completely incorrect, to the point that if Nomu didn’t have Shock Absorption it would have been one shot? Meaning they messed up so bad on the strength scale/misremembered how strong he was, that Prime All Might could decapitate Nomu in one punch and tank it’s hits like nothing?
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Wait, when did I say it would be one-shot?
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You’re saying Prime All Might is stronger than Mirko.
Mirko can one shot High Ends who are stronger than USJ Nomu.
You’re claiming that if it did not have Shock Absorption, despite being “as strong as All Might,” it would be one shot by Prime All Might.
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That still means you believe the U.S.J. Nomu is at least relative to prime allmight. Which then what would that make high end nomus which are even stronger? And then what would that make endeavor who is even stronger than them by a good amount? This just doesn't hold up. If the U.S.J. nomu is relative to prime allmight then the high ends would at the very least necessarily be basically prime allmight level. And everyone stronger than them would be even stronger than prime allmight.
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And then how would this work with apex shigaraki actually being prime allmight level??? By your logic apex shigaraki at this point would be WAY stronger than prime allmight if the U.S.J. Nomu is already relative.
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