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Prime All Might Multiplier - Possible Discussion Thread Rule Addition After?

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Damage3245 said:
It's fair to be cautious when it comes to introducing a potentially huge scaling disparity. When issues were brought up with such a multiplier and how it affects the current characters, people have had to resort to saying "PIS" to excuse some of the issues.
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PIS has only been used once or twice at most. And it's only been used as one possible explanation. It's not our mian argument, but even then if it was it's pretty fair to use it when there's only one small problem with the multiplier and nothing else. But again PIS is not a main argument, but it's also not bad. And we've already explained how those instances would be a problem no matter what.
And my problem isn't with people being cautious, but literally just ignoring the discussion and arguments just because they don't like that 60 is a "big number". That by itself shouldn't be a reason to not support it. People should actually formulate logical arguments against it.
 
Not to mention, I still don’t have a consensus on how big of an AP gap would constitute splattering someone. If there is an official calc or something for that, it would probably lend more credence to the 60x argument being either faulty or accurate.

If there isn’t then him being 60x shouldn’t even matter for their bodies and this whole discussion doesn’t have to happen. If there is, then the arguments against 60x based on that will have far more ground.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
Not to mention, I still don’t have a consensus on how big of an AP gap would constitute splattering someone. If there is an official calc or something for that, it would probably lend more credence to the 60x argument being either faulty or accurate.
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And even if we did have a consensus on it the problem of shigaraki clearly logically being able to splatter mirko without any multipliers would still continue so it wouldn't be an actual argument against it. But again we don't even have a consensus on that
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
Not to mention, I still don’t have a consensus on how big of an AP gap would constitute splattering someone. If there is an official calc or something for that, it would probably lend more credence to the 60x argument being either faulty or accurate.

If there isn’t then him being 60x shouldn’t even matter for their bodies and this whole discussion doesn’t have to happen. If there is, then the arguments against 60x based on that will have far more ground.
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The one shot gap for our vs battles here is 5 times, but outside of our vs matches

A universal one shot gap for different series doesn't exist or is different for each series
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
I would appreciate it if you toned down the hostility.
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I don’t know where you’re getting “hostility” from, nothing about the comment was hostile. If anything I’d probably argue you’re language towards me has been more hostile but that’s neither here nor there.
Kingofwolves999 said:
I was ALWAYS talking about her durability. The entire point of the scan, wherein she cancelled out the force of the High Ends attack, is to show that her legs are strong enough to completely negate some of the damage that attack would have done.
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This is not true:

Kingofwolves999 said:
“How much stronger they are matters.”

Ok? Mirko is consistently shown weaker than the High Ends. Her kicks can tear apart their bodies, as her legs are the strongest part of her, evidenced by them cancelling out the force of the attack she survived.
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Here you are quoting me specifically talking about AP, and then proceeding to say Mirko has been consistently shown weaker than the high ends, and that her legs could tear their bodies apart. You’re talking about her AP here, and I just pointed out the contradictory nature of this statement by how it’s claiming Mirko’s weaker than the high ends but she can somehow cancel out their attacks even though that would require the same amount of force.

Kingofwolves999 said:
As you keep showing, she gets palmed in the face and then thrown backwards. When she re-emerges, she is bloodied and damaged significantly. The Nomu question how Mirko is even moving after taking a hit like that, and she responds that she cancelled the impact with her legs. She directly answers that the hit she takes, the one you claim shows her comparable if not stronger than them, was cancelled by the her legs. So that entire point of her scaling to them is simply not sensible.
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You seem to have missed what I said so I’ll repeat myself:

The attack she cancels out is her getting launched. But the palm strike to the face isn’t something she’s cancelling out, we know this because she says she uses her legs to cancel out the attack but as we can clearly see in this image right here:
aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubWFuZ2FyZWFkLm9yZy9tYW5nYS9teS1oZXJvLWFjYWRlbWlhLw%3D%3D

Her legs are a bit too preoccupied one shotting a high end to be cancelling out that strike to the face.

So she would scale to them for two reasons:

1) for taking that hit to the face and being just fine
2) for canceling out the high end’s followup move which requires an equal amount of force to be able to do.
Kingofwolves999 said:
How does her being able to damage them mean that they’re weak to close combat? As was already established, any attack that hits them would count as close combat, that kind of “weakness” is impossible to extrapolate. She only mentioned that to the Nomu using long ranged attack specifically because of his Quirk set, his fighting style is weak to close combat fighters, not because every High End there is weak to her kicks. They’re weak to her kicks because her kicks are that much stronger than them, nothing else.
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And now we’ve finally circled back to the original point at hand which is “how much stronger” someone is than another being a determining factor in how much damage they receive.

Mirko’s kicks were “that much stronger” than the Nomu’s that they literally blew their exposed heads right off. Now, despite Shiggy being allegedly 60x stronger than Mirko, Bakugou, etc, him not being able to do this or similar levels of damage even when he’s raging mad at his opponent, seems to me like a 5x multiplier difference makes more sense as to why Mirko was knocked out rather than completely destroyed by Shigaraki’s blow.
Kingofwolves999 said:
Also, allow me to say something… your scans are atrocious.



I hadn’t been checking that panel cause I trusted that you were using the OFFICIAL translations, but clearly that was incorrect.

“Guys who fight with ranged moves… don’t tend to do so hot in close quarters.”

This debunks your entire premise. Use the actual, official manga for your translations, not fan translations.
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Is viz even the correct translations though, we literally use fan translations over Viz ones many times since Viz is known and has been caught mistaking translations many many times over.
 
Maitreya said:
I don’t know where you’re getting “hostility” from, nothing about the comment was hostile. If anything I’d probably argue you’re language towards me has been more hostile but that’s neither here nor there.

This is not true:


Here you are quoting me specifically talking about AP, and then proceeding to say Mirko has been consistently shown weaker than the high ends, and that her legs could tear their bodies apart. You’re talking about her AP here, and I just pointed out the contradictory nature of this statement by how it’s claiming Mirko’s weaker than the high ends but she can somehow cancel out their attacks even though that would require the same amount of force.


You seem to have missed what I said so I’ll repeat myself:

The attack she cancels out is her getting launched. But the palm strike to the face isn’t something she’s cancelling out, we know this because she says she uses her legs to cancel out the attack but as we can clearly see in this image right here:
aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubWFuZ2FyZWFkLm9yZy9tYW5nYS9teS1oZXJvLWFjYWRlbWlhLw%3D%3D

Her legs are a bit too preoccupied one shotting a high end to be cancelling out that strike to the face.

So she would scale to them for two reasons:

1) for taking that hit to the face and being just fine
2) for canceling out the high end’s followup move which requires an equal amount of force to be able to do.

And now we’ve finally circled back to the original point at hand which is “how much stronger” someone is than another being a determining factor in how much damage they receive.

Mirko’s kicks were “that much stronger” than the Nomu’s that they literally blew their exposed heads right off. Now, despite Shiggy being allegedly 60x stronger than Mirko, Bakugou, etc, him not being able to do this or similar levels of damage even when he’s raging mad at his opponent, seems to me like a 5x multiplier difference makes more sense as to why Mirko was knocked out rather than completely destroyed by Shigaraki’s blow.

Is viz even the correct translations though, we literally use fan translations over Viz ones many times since Viz is known and has been caught mistaking translations many many times over.
Click to expand...
Her getting grabbed and the actual throw are the exact same attack, that’s why she’s bleeding from the head and hurt in the first place. She gets grabbed, kicks one of them, then gets thrown and cancels the impact of the throw with her legs before her body impacts the wall.

Yes, we use Viz translations. So your entire weak to close combat argument has been predicated on faulty translations and scans. Unless you would rather have someone get the raws and translate those, which I’m not opposed to, we will continue using the official translations, though the wording even in your fan scans implies fighting style not durability.
 
Also, if the High Ends are weak to close combat, why could the Near High End along with Shigaraki survive Star and Stripe’s giant literally clapping its hand over it and crushing it? Or that same air giant punching it?

Mirko is the ONLY character shown to tear High Ends apart with sheer strength. It is not a weakness, she is just that strong with her legs.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
Her getting grabbed and the actual throw are the exact same attack, that’s why she’s bleeding from the head and hurt in the first place. She gets grabbed, kicks one of them, then gets thrown and cancels the impact of the throw with her legs before her body impacts the wall.
Click to expand...
And there you have it. You said it yourself, she’s canceling the impact of the throw by the high end. The palm to the face though, she’s just getting hit by. Her getting hit in the face and launched means she needs to tank the hit to her face and the launching, she only cancels out the landing impact of said launching, but the force of the hit that launched her, she just had to withstand.

Like if Mirko were a baseball she would’ve withstood the hit from the bat and the launching, but cancelled out the baseball’s impact to the wall.
 
Maitreya said:
And there you have it. You said it yourself, she’s canceling the impact of the throw by the high end. The palm to the face though, she’s just getting hit by. Her getting hit in the face and launched means she needs to tank the hit to her face and the launching, she only cancels out the landing impact of said launching, but the force of the hit that launched her, she just had to withstand.

Like if Mirko were a baseball she would’ve withstood the hit from the bat and the launching, but cancelled out the baseball’s impact to the wall.
Click to expand...
So you agree that the force of the palm grabbing her, combined with her hitting the wall, would have left her out of commission and unable to move if she didn’t cancel the impact with her legs? Meaning you agree that her durability is lower than the High End’s AP since she would have been one shot? Or do you think the force of her hitting the wall would have been >>> the force of that palm?
 
So for posterity’s sake:

Shigaraki would need to be 4787 times stronger to splatter someone, going by wiki calculations of the V.Frag of a human body.

So the logic proposed of “he didn’t splatter them so he can’t be 60x stronger” is flawed, unless I’ve misinterpreted something. He’s an incredibly far distance away from being able to splatter them, in fact.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
So you agree that the force of the palm grabbing her, combined with her hitting the wall, would have left her out of commission and unable to move if she didn’t cancel the impact with her legs? Meaning you agree that her durability is lower than the High End’s AP since she would have been one shot? Or do you think the force of her hitting the wall would have been >>> the force of that palm?
Click to expand...
The damage from an impact to a wall isn’t part of someone’s AP. That’s like if Deku launched Shigaraki sky high but the fall back to the ground is what actually killed him. Her durability can’t be lower than the high end’s AP if she withstood the high end’s AP itself.
 
Maitreya said:
The damage from an impact to a wall isn’t part of someone’s AP. That’s like if Deku launched Shigaraki sky high but the fall back to the ground is what actually killed him. Her durability can’t be lower than the high end’s AP if she withstood the high end’s AP itself.
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Except she herself stated that the only reason she’s still moving is because she canceled that impact of hitting the wall. So the story disagrees with you, the energy she would have taken from the wall would have rendered her completely incapable of moving, per her own statement.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
So for posterity’s sake:

Shigaraki would need to be 4787 times stronger to splatter someone, going by wiki calculations of the V.Frag of a human body.

So the logic proposed of “he didn’t splatter them so he can’t be 60x stronger” is flawed, unless I’ve misinterpreted something. He’s an incredibly far distance away from being able to splatter them, in fact.
Click to expand...
I just quickly calced the longest fall a human has ever done without a parachute. It was by Vesna Vulovic and I got it to 104,938 joules which is over 989.98113207547 times stronger than an average human. So idk what makes anyone think shigaraki would splatter anyone there.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
Except she herself stated that the only reason she’s still moving is because she canceled that impact of hitting the wall. So the story disagrees with you, the energy she would have taken from the wall would have rendered her completely incapable of moving, per her own statement.
Click to expand...
This literally has nothing to do with the point being asked. I just said the damage from hitting the wall isn’t part of someone’s AP, and you respond with saying the “story disagrees with me?” About what??

Also, pretty sure Mirko makes no mention herself that she would’ve been knocked out. A Nomu just asks how she’s still standing and she says she cancelled out the impact with her legs, Mirko herself doesn’t mention she would’ve been incapacitated.
 
ShigarakiShimura said:
I just quickly calced the longest fall a human has ever done without a parachute. It was by Vesna Vulovic and I got it to 104,938 joules which is over 989.98113207547 times stronger than an average human. So idk what makes anyone think shigaraki would splatter anyone there.
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Don't even recall a time when anyone inverse was splattered except through a quirk, even in cases where some would think they'd be splattered. So imo the splatter thing really is just a red herring
 
ShigarakiShimura said:
I just quickly calced the longest fall a human has ever done without a parachute. It was by Vesna Vulovic and I got it to 104,938 joules which is over 989.98113207547 times stronger than an average human. So idk what makes anyone think shigaraki would splatter anyone there.
Click to expand...
visuals, imagining someone getting hit with an attack 60 times greater than their own energy output would lead most people to imagine the aftermath to be a bloodmist of a formerly human body, me included

i guess not, the more you learn i guess
 
Maitreya said:
This literally has nothing to do with the point being asked. I just said the damage from hitting the wall isn’t part of someone’s AP, and you respond with saying the “story disagrees with me?” About what??

Also, pretty sure Mirko makes no mention herself that she would’ve been knocked out. A Nomu just asks how she’s still standing and she says she cancelled out the impact with her legs, Mirko herself doesn’t mention she would’ve been incapacitated.
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You’re ignoring the entire conversation.

The Nomu asks “How can she still move?”

Mirko replies: “Wanna know? My legs cancelled out the impact!”

She is answering the Nomu. The force of her getting hit with the wall would have made her unable to move. She was heavily damaged by the first hit, and if she did not use her legs, would have been one shot and out of commission.

So she is less durable than the High Ends to a massive degree if one of them hitting her once and launching her into a wall would one shot her.
 
ShigarakiShimura said:
I think it's pretty clear that a 60× difference isn't anywhere near enough to splatter a body. So no matter what this argument is useless
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True, the main point of the argument about durability is kind of irrelevant.

Shigaraki can knock these guys all around with a 60x difference and he would not be able to splatter them. So that being a defeater for there being a 60x difference at all is kinda null.

Unless someone else comes in with an opposing view, which I’m very open to. When I hear “60x difference” I imagine you just get turned to mist, but mathematically I guess not, or maybe we’re just not doing it right.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
You’re ignoring the entire conversation.

The Nomu asks “How can she still move?”

Mirko replies: “Wanna know? My legs cancelled out the impact!”

She is answering the Nomu. The force of her getting hit with the wall would have made her unable to move. She was heavily damaged by the first hit, and if she did not use her legs, would have been one shot and out of commission.

So she is less durable than the High Ends to a massive degree if one of them hitting her once and launching her into a wall would one shot her.
Click to expand...
Why would that make her less durable than the high end? The fact that she can one shot the high ends and cancel the impact shows she wouldn’t be less durable. Does the fact that she can literally one shot those high ends without needing any extra impacts prove she’s more durable than them?
 
Maitreya said:
Why would that make her less durable than the high end? The fact that she can one shot the high ends and cancel the impact shows she wouldn’t be less durable. Does the fact that she can literally one shot those high ends without needing any extra impacts prove she’s more durable than them?
Click to expand...
Her legs are stronger than her body. So no.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
Unless someone else comes in with an opposing view, which I’m very open to. When I hear “60x difference” I imagine you just get turned to mist, but mathematically I guess not, or maybe we’re just not doing it right.
Click to expand...
I mean the maths seems fine. I put a weight of 68 kg for her, the maximum velocity of a human is 200 km/h and she fell a distance of 10.16 km. This comes out as 104,938 joules
 
Now that we're done with this argument, and honestly this was the only real argument all the other ones were people being completely ignorant or misrepresenting things, and even this one kinda also was, I feel like it's pretty clear that 60× multiplier works perfectly fine and makes sense.
 
ShigarakiShimura said:
Now that we're done with this argument, and honestly this was the only real argument all the other ones were people being completely ignorant or misrepresenting things, and even this one kinda also was, I feel like it's pretty clear that 60× multiplier works perfectly fine and makes sense.
Click to expand...
I'm still not convinced tbh. I don't think it's been shown that the difference between PLW Arc Shigaraki and Final War Arc Shigaraki is as great as 60 times. The counter-arguments like him being harmed by Nejire were flawed.
 
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