Prime All Might Multiplier - Possible Discussion Thread Rule Addition After?

[TheRustyOne]

It's not like she gouged deep wounds into their body or left any visible impact on their skin at all franky

Why does she or anyone need to do that?

You can scale to someone without them visually showing signs of pain.

Your description would imply she's superior to them, which isn't the case here. This reasoning makes zero sense.

By this logic no one can scale to anyone unless they cause visible damage or react in pain.

If you aren't saying that, then your response has zero meaning on the discussion.

Edit: I feel like we're going off track again.

 

[ShigarakiShimura]

I think that Nejire's competency against the Near High-Ends is a bit overestimated tbh. We only get a good look at two times Nejire lands a direct hit on these Nomu, one where she saves Best Jeanist from one of them and another where she pins one against the ground.

It's not like she gouged deep wounds into their body or left any visible impact on their skin at all franky... In each case she's only shown pushing them back / pushing them down. Yes, it's more than what she's been shown to do to Complete Shigaraki... but it's not like she's causing massive damage to the Nomu that would reinforce a 60x durability difference between the Nomu and Shigaraki.

Again this gets us back to the point that you already agreed on that it's not impossible for there to be a 60× difference but it's also not impossible there isn't.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Arguments:

Per-Punch Absorption

The claim that Nomu’s absorption works off a “set defense stat” has been addressed as follows.

The logic if a set defense stat falls apart when actual number are put to it in any way. Using Qaws example, 99 vs 100 and 159 gives a 1.6x difference, but a 699 vs 700 and 759 gives a 1.085x difference.

This makes the actual grounds of the argument shaky, but what really creates mass assumptions and out of the box reasoning is that All Might would had to have done this math in the first place. Despite Kirishima’s statement about the regeneration and how All Might defeated it, it’s simply a wild assumption to believe that All Might could pinpoint how much damage he was doing vs how much was absorbed, so accurately that he could tell how many hits his Prime would take, in a manner that requires him to do that for EVERY PUNCH.

This explanation for the occurrence simply requires far too many assumptions to be comfortably usable. This argument from TheRustyOne sums it up quite well.

Spoiler: Rusty vs Per-Punch Argument

All Might sends Nomu flying with over 300 punches. He then says that in his heyday, he'd be able to perform the same feat with only 5 punches.

The argument here is simple, what does All Might statement actually mean? What is the simplest explanation? Occam's Razor and all that.

Nomu's Shock Absorption here is honestly irrelevant to me, since I find the idea that All Might is calculating Nomu's Quirk as he's punching him to be absurd. All Might is just going by what he remembers his strength was and where his strength is now as he's punching Nomu.

All Might knows how strong he was back in his prime, he knows how strong he is currently, and he knows how many punches it took to blow away Nomu. His statement isn't about Nomu's Shock Absorption working in a highly specific way. It's him finally realizing just how much weaker he's gotten from his heyday.

All Might was unaware of this until now because he's never fought anyone who was able to push him to his 100% ever since he fought AFO. He knew he was getting weaker, but he just didn't realize how much weaker he had gotten.

We don't know what Horikoshi was planning with this statement, we have to interpret the meaning of it to the best of our abilities. Death of the Author and all that. But I do find the idea that All Might can somehow calculate such a thing to be absurd.

Statements

The statements given by every character so far do not create any sort of contradiction to the 60x multiplier.

Many statements for All Might’s power or characters “as strong as All Might” or “not as strong as All Might” revolve around varying perceptions of the character, with the most important perceptions of that power only able to come from All Might himself and Shigaraki in the final war, as he is the most explicit about the state of All Might he refers to.

Other than All Might and Shigaraki (and I suppose Hawks data book statement), most other statements are incredibly vague about what version of All Might they are referring to, bouncing back and forth with no clear indication if the person talking is referring to his Prime or not, or even if they’re a credible source given All Might has been trying to keep his power under wraps.

Feats

No feats disprove a 60x multiplier, which is at times more important than any statement. The gap presented between All Might and everyone else, through a feats only perspective, can come from Complete Shigaraki, who tanks, mocks and one shots everyone that comes before him. He is the only character shown to be so otherworldly powerful compared to the other characters that they can’t even scratch his skin or damage him in any meaningful way, to the point that even a character like Mirko who can tear chunks out of the supposedly deadly High Ends is nothing to him.

Conclusion

There is so far no alternative, simpler answer to the All Might vs Nomu statement that results in something contradictory to the 60x multiplier being valid.

There are no statements that can be used to claim Prime All Might isn’t 60x stronger than everyone else, and when searching for statements SPECIFIC to Prime All Might, they all come back to a character that can tank, one shot and slap around every other character in the verse.

The feats for characters on Prime AM’s level only exacerbate the clear jump in power he has over them. His level of power is such that characters cannot even scratch his skin with their attacks, that even when they combine their attacks into a massive cannon, they are mocked that they thought it would even work. No character was meant to even fight a Prime All Might level character, as that job was meant to be left to, you guessed it, a different Prime All Might level character.

So the only logic I can garner from all this is that the 60x is valid until a simpler, not assumption heavy alternative is presented, and that it is not contradicted in anyway by the manga( through either statements or feats.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

I think that Nejire's competency against the Near High-Ends is a bit overestimated tbh. We only get a good look at two times Nejire lands a direct hit on these Nomu, one where she saves Best Jeanist from one of them and another where she pins one against the ground.

It's not like she gouged deep wounds into their body or left any visible impact on their skin at all franky... In each case she's only shown pushing them back / pushing them down. Yes, it's more than what she's been shown to do to Complete Shigaraki... but it's not like she's causing massive damage to the Nomu that would reinforce a 60x durability difference between the Nomu and Shigaraki.

But that doesn’t really matter? She’s hurting it, keeping it down, its mouth is open in an expression of either shock or pain, and considering it is an unthinking monstrosity, it can only be the latter. So if she can hurt it she would scale to it… and then that AP is so worthless to Complete Shigaraki she can’t even scratch his skin with it.

So no, her competency is very fair I feel, which makes the lack of damage Shigaraki takes also fear.

Let’s also not forget that Suneater COMBINED his power with Nejire’s power to make his Plasma Cannon, with even that not doing anything to Shigaraki. In fact, it did so little damage, that the only attack in the entire encounter he even remembers is Bakugo’s second awakening.

 

[Damage3245]

The claim that Nomu’s absorption works off a “set defense stat” has been addressed as follows.

The logic if a set defense stat falls apart when actual number are put to it in any way. Using Qaws example, 99 vs 100 and 159 gives a 1.6x difference, but a 699 vs 700 and 759 gives a 1.085x difference.

This makes the actual grounds of the argument shaky

That doesn't make the argument shaky at all... Nobody is claimed a specific multiplier here, only showing that it doesn't have to be as high as 60x for All Might to finish the fight in fewer punches.

but what really creates mass assumptions and out of the box reasoning is that All Might would had to have done this math in the first place. Despite Kirishima’s statement about the regeneration and how All Might defeated it, it’s simply a wild assumption to believe that All Might could pinpoint how much damage he was doing vs how much was absorbed, so accurately that he could tell how many hits his Prime would take, in a manner that requires him to do that for EVERY PUNCH.

This explanation for the occurrence simply requires far too many assumptions to be comfortably usable. This argument from TheRustyOne sums it up quite well.

All Might was somehow able to keep track of and count all of the punches he threw in that short span of seconds against the Nomu. It's not unreasonable for him to compare the effectiveness of his punches to how effective he thinks his punches in his prime would have been.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

That doesn't make the argument shaky at all... Nobody is claimed a specific multiplier here, only showing that it doesn't have to be as high as 60x for All Might to finish the fight in fewer punches.


All Might was somehow able to keep track of and count all of the punches he threw in that short span of seconds against the Nomu. It's not unreasonable for him to compare the effectiveness of his punches to how effective he thinks his punches in his prime would have been.

But the only way for any of this to work is for All Might to see the damage he is dealing.

How is he able to tell how much damage he’s dealing past the shock absorption? How is he keeping track of the damage the Nomu is taking when it shows no visible injury? How is he gauging the amount of power absorbed to what goes through? He doesn’t even realize the Nomu has shock absorption until he is told, so when he punches it, to him it feels like punching anything else he’s hit, it’s just that Nomu doesn’t react.

So yeah, the questions posed by the Per-Punch argument just seem to stack up on top of needing All Might to keep track of the damage he’s dealing in such a specific way as opposed to him counting his punches and, when Nomu is defeated, realizing how weak he is comparatively.

The argument for 1.6x or any multiplier like that just seems to need far too many variables and raises too many questions. Sure, it IS another option, but it is nowhere near as logical or simple as the other option, so it shouldn’t be used.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

That doesn't make the argument shaky at all... Nobody is claimed a specific multiplier here, only showing that it doesn't have to be as high as 60x for All Might to finish the fight in fewer punches.

It does because it requires many assumptions and an intelligence that Allmight hasn't displayed.

All Might was somehow able to keep track of and count all of the punches he threw in that short span of seconds against the Nomu. It's not unreasonable for him to compare the effectiveness of his punches to how effective he thinks his punches in his prime would have been.

Keeping track of your punches is much easier than doing mathematics especially because Allmight was the one doing the pummeling thus he could simply just count. He is an average person not an idiot. What you are suggesting would need at least equipment to even begin deciphering it and compare it like that.

 

[Damage3245]

The argument for 1.6x or any multiplier like that just seems to need far too many variables and raises too many questions. Sure, it IS another option, but it is nowhere near as logical or simple as the other option, so it shouldn’t be used.

Nobody is arguing for a 1.6x multiplier or any multiplier like that anyway.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

But the only way for any of this to work is for All Might to see the damage he is dealing.

How is he able to tell how much damage he’s dealing past the shock absorption? How is he keeping track of the damage the Nomu is taking when it shows no visible injury? How is he gauging the amount of power absorbed to what goes through? He doesn’t even realize the Nomu has shock absorption until he is told, so when he punches it, to him it feels like punching anything else he’s hit, it’s just that Nomu doesn’t react.

So yeah, the questions posed by the Per-Punch argument just seem to stack up on top of needing All Might to keep track of the damage he’s dealing in such a specific way as opposed to him counting his punches and, when Nomu is defeated, realizing how weak he is comparatively.

The argument for 1.6x or any multiplier like that just seems to need far too many variables and raises too many questions. Sure, it IS another option, but it is nowhere near as logical or simple as the other option, so it shouldn’t be used.

Yeah this argument makes no sense and comes off frankly as disingenous. As I said this needs so many assumptions you might as well just say I don't like the feat.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Nobody is arguing for a 1.6x multiplier or any multiplier like that anyway.

That’s not the point, it’s just that the Per-Punch argument introduces variables like that anytime you try to put the numbers of “300” or “5” into it, as opposed to the very simple and effective total energy argument.

 

[Damage3245]

That’s not the point, it’s just that the Per-Punch argument introduces variables like that anytime you try to put the numbers of “300” or “5” into it, as opposed to the very simple and effective total energy argument.

Just because your argument presents you with a neat 60x multiplier value doesn't make it inherently more correct to use.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

That’s not the point, it’s just that the Per-Punch argument introduces variables like that anytime you try to put the numbers of “300” or “5” into it, as opposed to the very simple and effective total energy argument.

The most logical conclusion is that the quirk works like an armor. All might needed 300 hits and before he would need 5. So his hits were 60x stronger in the past. It's a much more logical explanation and would go along with the feat. At least that's what I have gotten from that.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Just because your argument presents you with a neat 60x multiplier value doesn't make it inherently more correct to use.

No but it helps that it's more logical and doesn't assume that Allmight knows how much damage he was doing to an opponent he had no way to know how to gauge.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Just because your argument presents you with a neat 60x multiplier value doesn't make it inherently more correct to use.

But what makes any other argument more correct than it? There is no presented, simpler, more correct alternative produced yet.

 

[Damage3245]

No but it helps that it's more logical and doesn't assume that Allmight knows how much damage he was doing to an opponent he had no way to know how to gauge.

And off the top of his head, All Might also happens to know how many joules of energy his punches have at the time of the U.S.J.? How would he know that information?

But what makes any other argument more correct than it? There is no presented, simpler, more correct alternative produced yet.

My alternative is that we don't apply any multiplier yet, and we wait to get more information from the manga. There's nothing wrong with that given that we haven't had to depend on any multiplier here for several years.

 

[ShigarakiShimura]

My alternative is that we don't apply any multiplier yet, and we wait to get more information from the manga. There's nothing wrong with that given that we haven't had to depend on any multiplier here for several years.

The reason why we haven't had any multiplier here for several years is because people dismissed it for no good reason. Now you're basically saying let's ignore this clear multiplier because I think we should wait for more "information from the manga" which we both know is extremely unlikely we'll get any more information on the difference between prime allmight and weakened allmight and the manga is ending soon. How about we apply the obvious 60× multiplier until you know something wrong with it pops up?

 

[Kingofwolves999]

And off the top of his head, All Might also happens to know how many joules of energy his punches have at the time of the U.S.J.? How would he know that information?


My alternative is that we don't apply any multiplier yet, and we wait to get more information from the manga. There's nothing wrong with that given that we haven't had to depend on any multiplier here for several years.

He’s not counting joules, he’s just commenting that he knows how much weaker he is. He knows how strong his Prime was, so as he’s punching my Nomu, he’s realizing just how many hits it takes compared to how many it would take at his best.

So your stance is to just ignore this thread and line of thinking entirely? Even though we have more than enough information to garner a conclusion from it? You would have us wait potentially months because you can’t give a better alternative to something that has clear backing? If it doesn’t matter what happens here until the manga clears it up, then why does it matter if it’s applied at all? If you’re so sure the manga will clarify the gap, then this thread and any arguments presented shouldn’t even matter to you, shouldn’t it?

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

And off the top of his head, All Might also happens to know how many joules of energy his punches have at the time of the U.S.J.? How would he know that information?

Why would he need to know that? He can feel his punches and he also knows the punches that he used in the past. He can easily compare them anytime and he tells that huh well 300 of these punches are worth as much as 5 of my prime. It's a pretty clear cut statement from someone who knows his own body. He doesn't need joules and stuff. Just roughly an idea of how hard he was hitting and how much weaker he currently is which seeing as it's the thing constantly worrying him would be pretty evidently mostly what he thinks off.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

By the logic of “the manga will maybe explain it later,” especially when this feat is almost 9 YEARS OLD, then shouldn’t we never calc anything because we don’t know the full manga yet so things could change? That just doesn’t make sense to me.

 

[Spinoirr]

anyways I agree with the 60 times thing

 

[Damage3245]

By the logic of “the manga will maybe explain it later,” especially when this feat is almost 9 YEARS OLD, then shouldn’t we never calc anything because we don’t know the full manga yet so things could change? That just doesn’t make sense to me.

What I'm saying is that I don't think there is sufficient proof that there is a valid 60x multiplier. Maybe the rest of the manga will provide some more proof one way or the other. I'm not ruling out changing my mind on it in the future.

And my stance isn't to "ignore this thread"... My current stance is disagreement with the proposal of this thread. That's not ignoring it.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

What I'm saying is that I don't think there is sufficient proof that there is a valid 60x multiplier. Maybe the rest of the manga will provide some more proof one way or the other. I'm not ruling out changing my mind on it in the future.

And my stance isn't to "ignore this thread"... My current stance is disagreement with the proposal of this thread. That's not ignoring it.

But where is your disagreement coming from?

The feats line up, the statements don’t contradict it and the interpretation given is the simplest and so far most correct one. An alternative was attempted to be given, but it relies on far more assumptions and leaps in logic than the former, so the former should be prioritized per the wiki’s own logic.

Why do you not want the 60x multiplier to be a thing, especially when it applies to so little characters and does nothing but affirm where the God tiers are?

 

[ShigarakiShimura]

What I'm saying is that I don't think there is sufficient proof that there is a valid 60x multiplier. Maybe the rest of the manga will provide some more proof one way or the other. I'm not ruling out changing my mind on it in the future.

And my stance isn't to "ignore this thread"... My current stance is disagreement with the proposal of this thread. That's not ignoring it.

The only other way there could be more proof is if allmight straight up said "I was 60× more powerful in my prime!". And if you think doing 300÷5 = 60 is too big of a jump then idk what to tell you.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

When a character is so strong that other characters can’t even scratch his skin, when their best moves are laughed off and mocked, when he berates them over and over for daring to think their power, even when combined together via Suneater’s Plasma Cannon, is even remotely close to his own… what conclusion can I draw except that he is vastly stronger than them to a massive degree?

 

[Damage3245]

The only other way there could be more proof is if allmight straight up said "I was 60× more powerful in my prime!". And if you think doing 300÷5 = 60 is too big of a jump then idk what to tell you.

I'm not convinced by your interpretation of All Might's statement so I can't in good conscience vote for a 60x multiplier. It's as simple as that.

Obviously I don't expect you to change your own interpretation to match mine, but you will need more staff input.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

I'm not convinced by your interpretation of All Might's statement so I can't in good conscience vote for a 60x multiplier. It's as simple as that.

Obviously I don't expect you to change your own interpretation to match mine, but you will need more staff input.

But what is not convincing you? Everything we’ve talked about so far has done nothing but affirm the gap is possible, with the method of getting that multiplier being outlandishly simple and consistent with the logic of the characters.

 

[Stryker861]

It's one thing if the multiplier is inconsistent but we shouldn't be asking to get spoonfed "I was 60x stronger in my prime" when the maganka expects(hopefully) for his readers to be able to do basic math and come to a logical conclusion on what all might was saying

 

[Damage3245]

@Kingofwolves999 Just so we're on the same page, how strong would you say 100% Izuku or Faux 100% Izuku is?

Let's assume that the 60x multiplier is valid here. Where would he be rated to you?

 

[Kingofwolves999]

@Kingofwolves999 Just so we're on the same page, how strong would you say 100% Izuku or Faux 100% Izuku is?

Let's assume that the 60x multiplier is valid here. Where would he be rated to you?

Which version of him?

 

[Damage3245]

Which version of him?

All versions of him.

 

[ShigarakiShimura]

All versions of him.

The 60× prime allmight multiplier would only be applicable to current deku

 

[ShigarakiShimura]

Which version of him?

Only current deku would get the multiplier

 

[Damage3245]

@ShigarakiShimura No offense intended at all, but my question was directed at Kingofwolves999.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

All versions of him.

UA Beginnings would scale to Weakened AM, as per the showings in Two Heroes.

Joint Training would scale to either unreleased Nine (assuming he is High End level/above them since he was Shigaraki’s prototype) or just higher than UA Beginnings, same for Endeavor Agency.

All Out War scales above Shigaraki, with his Faux 100% being unquantifiable, maybe equal to his 100%. The only confirmed thing we have is that his Faux 100% is equal to a time when All Might outran a speeding bullet.

His current version stomped Evolved Shigaraki so he would scale above Prime All Might, and thus would be included in the people who scale to the 60x multiplier.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Note that his All Out War key was so strong that no Quirk in Shigaraki’s entire arsenal could do anything to him and Shigaraki was absolutely overwhelmed, only surviving due to his regeneration.

Deku then got stronger as he spent over a month doing nothing but fighting and saving people with no sleep which would increase the power he has substantially as well as make him more suited to handling the power he had, which is what crippled his growth to begin with.

 

[ShigarakiShimura]

What does this have to do with the discussion tho

 

[Damage3245]

See... There's a weird thing when it comes to 100% Izuku that I can't shake. When Izuku finally arrives on the battlefield and punches Shigaraki, the villain thinks to himself "Has he gotten stronger?!" and then connects the glowing appearance of Izuku's Fa Jin with the previous holder, indicating that the reason Izuku is able to batter him around so effectively is because he's using Fa Jin at this moment to enhance his strikes. This is the first time All For One has seen Izuku directly in combat so far as we're aware since their battle in Jaku. So if he's saying "Has he gotten stronger?!"... then wouldn't that be in reference to when he saw Izuku's strength in Jaku? And yet the implication is that the explanation for Izuku being stronger is due to him using Fa Jin against Shigaraki.

But if Izuku had gotten sixty times stronger since the last time they fought (without taking into account Fa Jin or Gearshift)... Why doesn't that get any kind of a mention? It seems like a pretty important milestone to cover, but I can't remember any time in the last hundred chapters that someone said that Izuku's 100% is way, way stronger than what he used to wield.

If I missed a statement, then I'd genuinely like to know.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

See... There's a weird thing when it comes to 100% Izuku that I can't shake. When Izuku finally arrives on the battlefield and punches Shigaraki, the villain thinks to himself "Has he gotten stronger?!" and then connects the glowing appearance of Izuku's Fa Jin with the previous holder, indicating that the reason Izuku is able to batter him around so effectively is because he's using Fa Jin at this moment to enhance his strikes. This is the first time All For One has seen Izuku directly in combat so far as we're aware since their battle in Jaku.

But if Izuku had gotten sixty times stronger since the last time they fought (without taking into account Fa Jin or Gearshift)... Why doesn't that get any kind of a mention? It seems like a pretty important milestone to cover, but I can't remember any time in the last hundred chapters that someone said that Izuku's 100% is way, way stronger than what he used to wield.

If I missed a statement, then I'd genuinely like to know.

Deku isn’t at full power when he enters the battlefield, shown by his hair and eyes not glowing. He isn’t using 100%.

He seemingly hits Shigaraki with a Faux 100% which makes him remark that he is stronger. So all that means is that for whatever percentage he’s at casually, when performed under Faux 100% circumstances, is stronger than his previous 100%.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

So if Deku without 100% is already stronger than his prior 100% via a Faux 100%, and then proceeds to one hand block an attack from Evolved Shigaraki when he does go 100%, I think it’s fair to say he has gotten a lot stronger.

But either way, Deku’s strength is consistent to the 60x as he, along with Shigaraki, had dynamic growth spurts to place them at that level. They are the sole characters to reach this threshold besides maybe super amped, Mega darkness Tokoyami w/ assistance from Gale Force.

 

[Damage3245]

Deku isn’t at full power when he enters the battlefield, shown by his hair and eyes not glowing. He isn’t using 100%.

He seemingly hits Shigaraki with a Faux 100% which makes him remark that he is stronger. So all that means is that for whatever percentage he’s at casually, when performed under Faux 100% circumstances, is stronger than his previous 100%.

Ah, my bad, I forgot that Izuku wasn't in 100%.

So, if say Izuku was using 45% there, then All For One's monologue of "Has he gotten stronger?!" could be referring to the difference between 45% Izuku in the PLW arc and this Fa Jin-enhanced 45% Izuku who hit All For One/Shigaraki. With the explanation being that he had gotten stronger with the use of Fa Jin.