Serlock_Holmes
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Was that after or before AFO knew that he was weaker?
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Prime All Might Multiplier - Possible Discussion Thread Rule Addition After?
- Thread starter Kingofwolves999
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Was that after or before AFO knew that he was weaker?
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Well if you know that it's wrong then I don't think it's fair for you to put it in the OP as an argument/issue against the 60× multiplier. It's gonna confuse people.
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Afo knew he was weaker. Also I already sorted this out now
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I'm not voting, to begin with I'm not on the Staff, my opinion doesn't count
I'm just giving my opinion quickly
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The USJ Nomu's statement is easy to explain, it mean current All Might when it's said he's as strong as him.
Since we literally see the USJ Nomu match All Might during their fight. USJ Nomu cannot be Prime All Might level, or else Weakened All Might is now Prime All Might level. Which makes no sense when All Might himself acknowledges how much weaker he's become.
The feat of the USJ Nomu matching All Might tells us exactly what the statement means.
Garaki's statement is indeed vague, but because of that it can mean either version of All Might depending on what makes the most sense.
It's not an issue, just that it's open to interpretation. If we knew what he meant for 100% certainty, than an issue could arise. For now, we go with the scaling that makes sense. Which places Incomplete Shigaraki at Weakened All Might level and Complete Shigaraki and Prime All Might level.
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- Thread starter
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… both? They had suspicions that he was weaker, but they hadn’t confirmed it yet. But even with that knowledge they say “After all the trouble we went through to make him as strong as All Might.”
Do you have a better suggestion for the arguments presented to the 60x multiplier then?
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I mean, you don't HAVE to put that there's any issues/arguments against it if there aren't any.
Serlock_Holmes
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I think I saw you saying somewhere that it was released before it was completed or did I misremember?
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- Thread starter
- #489
So then what is your overall opinion on the 60x? Because I now can’t think of a statement or feat that actually contradicts it other than Damage’s argument of Shigaraki’s sporadic growth between SnS and Final War.
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Also, that's not really an argument against it. Characters can indeed become strong quickly that's not new. Look at Tokoyami.
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- Thread starter
- #491
I know that, I was the one that argued about Shigaraki’s unprecedented growth and rage amps
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Okay well then just remove them from the OP. You don't have to make up arguments/issues with the 60× multiplier if there aren't any.
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- #493
Fine, removed and I’m not updating the OP anymore than it is. If someone wants a summary or to debunk something just ask and I’m sure someone will provide it.
I will now wait to hear anyone else on actual issues caused by the 60x.
I will now wait to hear anyone else on actual issues caused by the 60x.
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Btw didn't you say before people actually need a reason to be allowed to vote? I'd like to hear TheRustyOnes reason for staying neutral now, what problems does he have with agreeing.
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- #495
Idk, they will explain them likely when they can/want.
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Understandable
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- #497
So where are we at right now.
Are there any statements, feats or alternative explanations for the Nomu vs All Might fight that haven’t been brought up and addressed.
Are there any statements, feats or alternative explanations for the Nomu vs All Might fight that haven’t been brought up and addressed.
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Nope. Everything has been addressed and brought up. I think we should just tag mods that are knowledgeable on mha to come and vote and give their reasons.
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Oh, BTW. If this gets accepted could we maybe create a page for Prime AMs multiplier? With arguments, and counter arguments answered? Feels like this will come up in the future again anyway so could be useful.
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- #500
That’s why the “possible discussion thread rule after” part of the title exists. Cause if it’s not accepted we need reasons for why not against common arguments and if it is we need reasons why it is against common arguments
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Wasn't talking about a discussion rule. Rather an explanation page with all the points layed out.
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- #502
Oh. Idk maybe, we’ve got blog pages for things like the movies so why not if someone makes it.
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Okay. Well this seems like we're done. So when are we going to get more mods that are knowledgeable on mha to come and vote and give us their reasons?
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A whole new page has popped up since I left, so I've gotten a little lost around here, but following up on the responses I received.
However, even if the Nomu wasn't defeated, I still think it could be used as evidence, since Endeavor wasn't able to cause that much physical damage to Shigaraki with his punches (so at the very least, Shigaraki's skin is more durable than this High-End's Bone Quirk).
But leaving that aside, the main reasons I think All Might is more durable than his normal AP is because:
I would like to say that most characters would probably die and get "one-shotted" if they had such a deep hole punched through their head.
However, even if the Nomu wasn't defeated, I still think it could be used as evidence, since Endeavor wasn't able to cause that much physical damage to Shigaraki with his punches (so at the very least, Shigaraki's skin is more durable than this High-End's Bone Quirk).
But leaving that aside, the main reasons I think All Might is more durable than his normal AP is because:
- AM can take the recoil of his punches even after going Plus Ultra, with these punches being strong enough to break the USJ Nomu's teeth and seemengly knock him out.
- AM's arm was able to take the clash and recoil of punching All For One's Ultimate Quirk Combination. In real life, this would cause both opponents' fists to break if the had similar durability and AP.
- And that's not all, All Might's arm also survived having Impact Recoil returning all of that power back onto him, while he was still clashing with AFO's massive punch.
I never said his durability hasn't changed, I just said his durability is higher than the power he has at the time, and given that Prime AM can likely go Plus Ultra as well, he would need to have a higher durability in order to survive the recoil of stronger attacks, unless you think going Plus Ultra would increase his durability, of course.
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Sorry, but we are far from finished here, Damage is the only staff member with voting power who has made his vote here.
Since you have been unable to convince him (and rightly so) the only thing left here would be to let other staff members make their votes, and respect their decision.
A staff member's vote cannot be denied just because you think the opposition's reasoning is not enough, keep that in mind.
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There was no hole in the head, I have no idea what you're even on about right now. This is also ignoring the fact the Nomu wasn't able to make any big/thick bones, due to being caught off guard from Endeavor's sneak attack and Eraser Head using his Quirk on him right after.
I have more thoughts on what you're saying right now, but this has nothing to do with the multipliers at all.
At least, I don't see how it does. I'm only just noticing that now.
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Which staff versed in MHA currently have voting power again? Also what even is the current main argument against the 60x multiplier*
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Endeavor's fist is deeply buried in the Nomu's fist head what do you mean there is no hole? Why do I even have to explain this, just show me if at some point a punch from Endeavor was deeply buried in Shigaraki's body and see if the High-End as durable as Shigaraki.
What does this even matter anyway? If the Nomu's base durability was on the level of All Might then he wouldn't have had his head caved in by a punch from Endeavor regardless of whether he was taken by surprise or had his bone quirk activated.
It was just my response to the argument that Mirko could one-shot a weakened All Might, but not 100% Shiggy, demonstrating a supposed "huge difference", when clearly it's not as simple as Prime AM's Dura>>>Mirko's AP>>>Weakened AM's Dura.
The fact that Mirko is able to "one-shot" High-Ends doesn't mean that she would be able to do the same with a weakened AM, and therefore there is no need for a massive durability difference between a Weakened and Prime AM for him to be able to take their kicks.
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No there isn't... I don't know what you're seeing. The bones are broken and have a gap, but there is no hole in the Nomu's actual head itself.
Does this have anything to do with the multiplier? Because I don't see how it does, best to drop this line of talk for now.
Pretty sure no one is talking about Mirko one shotting All Might right now. Save that discussion for another thread or the general discussion threads.
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- #510
If High Ends have enough AP that they can hurt people able to hurt them, such as Endeavor vs Hood, then the force of their bodies being that strong should cause them severe harm, similar to what Rewind AFO is doing with his Quirks. But they can handle the movements and force of their strikes just fine, on top of characters claiming their durability is incredibly high. There are no statements or showings that portray their AP as vastly higher than their durability either, not even with Mirko as her body is less powerful and durable than her legs. So by your own logic of “All Might scales to his Plus Ultra punches,” the High Ends must scale to their own AP because they can take the recoil of their own punches.
Those examples for All Might can be explained that he is simply enduring the pain caused by being severely hurt, not just that he’s that durable. As we see, his arm was badly damaged in the clash with AFO, to the point it was bleeding out of rips occurring under the stress, like the impact was making his skin rip open, similar to Deku when he breaks his arm. He endured and withstood it with his willpower, so much so that he was able to finish the fight by punching AFO with it, but I wouldn’t scale his durability that high, especially since AFO believed his Ultimate attack would kill him after having hurt him numerous times with smaller scale attacks. He was severely hurt by what he did, but he didn’t allow that to drop his performance in the slightest, it doesn’t mean he’s actually just way stronger.
But then the point you’re making is mostly moot. If he’s more durable but not at his Prime durability, then that means his Prime has an unknown durability higher than what he has shown even with his Plus Ultra attacks. Which just gives more credence that his Prime is much much stronger than he is at the moment.
This isn’t really addressing the point that a 60x multiplier isn’t contradicted by any statement, feat or scaling in the manga unless I’ve missed something.
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The difference in strength could be greater than 1.6x (like if All Might gave a 10, Nomu absorbs 9 force and it’s health is at 100, All Might would need to give about a 30 if he wanted to finish it off in 5 blows. Which is a 3x difference.)
But the main point being here is that you don’t necessarily need as large of a multiplier as 60x to get the result of the statement All Might is saying.
Also how did you get some of your figures. Going from 700 to 759 would never ever make you weaker in any way. That’s just a minor increase of 1.085x. I think you did your calculation wrong.
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We shouldn't be looking if there's other possible explanations. We should be looking for the most logical and reasonable explanation. Which is clear.
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I'll say again this line of reasoning should be dropped for being overly complicated on both sides. This is my response to this line of thinking.
What do you think about it?
Serlock_Holmes
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Yeah at this point just don't ever debate feats. Everything can have another explanation if stretched far enough. Doesn't mean it makes sense for anyone to be thinking like that or to want that impression to pass through.
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I really don't have time to argue against blindness, especially after Endeavor stated that under the skin of the Nomu, there are layers and layers of bones, so the hole of bones we are seeing are indeed, under the Nomu's skin.
Rusty, you clearly haven't been following the discussion, so if you don't want to respond to something or think it's beside the point, then just ignore it, I was responding to something else, it's not the crux of my argument, and I don't care if you think otherwise or say it has nothing to do with it.
Serlock_Holmes
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Tone it down you two.
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Was I being rude?
My apologies, that wasn't my intention.
I've made my points so I'll just hold my tongue.
Serlock_Holmes
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Mostly was afraid of further disagreements which would lead to things getting more heated. This thread needs engagement from more people asap. Also @Kingofwolves999 you could create a second post here that sums up everything said and solved arguments in case new people come because I don't think they are gonna read 6 pages worth of posts.
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The only time we see someone’s skin being so tough that attacks can’t scratch or hurt them is Prime AM level Shigaraki. So doesn’t this just further the narrative that he is wildly above the High Ends if a full force hit to the stomach from someone that can hurt High Ends (Nejire) can’t even scratch the thin layer of skin a human has?
And no, no one currently is saying Mirko would one tap USJ AM, and I would hazard to say she can despite bringing it up. But based on what we see, when Mirko, a completely unknown character in terms of strength at that moment, is not holding back and going for the kill, something she can’t do when acting as a hero, she can tear apart the Nomu, who can survive their own movements and don’t crumble under their own power.
Maybe AM is more durable than the Nomu, but if he is, it’s not by a lot, as USJ Nomu can still hurt him. So maybe he doesn’t get chunks torn out of him by Mirko, maybe he does. Ultimately, the point is Prime All Might, who is wildly stronger than either of them anyway and is the subject of the thread, as regardless of if Mirko can take out Weakened AM or not, she can’t do anything at all to Prime.
So again, you’re not really claiming the gap isn’t 60x or providing evidence it isn’t.
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I think that Nejire's competency against the Near High-Ends is a bit overestimated tbh. We only get a good look at two times Nejire lands a direct hit on these Nomu, one where she saves Best Jeanist from one of them and another where she pins one against the ground.
It's not like she gouged deep wounds into their body or left any visible impact on their skin at all franky... In each case she's only shown pushing them back / pushing them down. Yes, it's more than what she's been shown to do to Complete Shigaraki... but it's not like she's causing massive damage to the Nomu that would reinforce a 60x durability difference between the Nomu and Shigaraki.
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