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Prime All Might Multiplier - Possible Discussion Thread Rule Addition After?

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ShigarakiShimura said:
Also, the gap between weakened allmight and prime allmight can't b really small. Otherwise we have the same problem as before with the allmight statements and the nomus and apex shigaraki.
Click to expand...

We'll just have to wait and see if we get more information.
 
Well I suppose now my stance is that the “per-punch absorption” argument is just too easy to manipulate honestly. We don’t know how much Nomu would be absorbing off of All Might’s punches or how All Might would be qualifying the damage he’s actually doing since we see no visible injuries on Nomu. And using any kind of “defense vs attack” logic can result in a wide range of results that aren’t congruent with each other.

Assuming 99 defense makes it so AM is 1.6x. But assuming 9 defense makes it so AM is 1.9x. And assuming 999 defense makes it so he’s 1.059x. The argument only really works if you put these numbers next to it but they seem too easy to change around for different results.

These issues aren’t present for the Total Energy argument, at the very least.
 
ShigarakiShimura said:
No need for that now. I'm just stating observations
Click to expand...

You're entitled to your own interpretation and if you think a 60x multiplier is valid and real, then I won't stop you.

But as far as this thread goes, I'm not convinced that a 60x multiplier is the only viable option, so I can't vote in favor of it.

Kingofwolves999 said:
Well I suppose now my stance is that the “per-punch absorption” argument is just too easy to manipulate honestly. We don’t know how much Nomu would be absorbing off of All Might’s punches or how All Might would be qualifying the damage he’s actually doing since we see no visible injuries on Nomu. And using any kind of “defense vs attack” logic can result in a wide range of results that aren’t congruent with each other.

Assuming 99 defense makes it so AM is 1.6x. But assuming 9 defense makes it so AM is 1.9x. And assuming 999 defense makes it so he’s 1.059x. The argument only really works if you put these numbers next to it but they seem too easy to change around for different results.

These issues aren’t present for the Total Energy argument, at the very least.
Click to expand...

You're right. That's why I'm not proposing that we assign All Might a specific multiplier off of that statement.
 
All Might sends Nomu flying with over 300 punches. He then says that in his heyday, he'd be able to perform the same feat with only 5 punches.

The argument here is simple, what does All Might statement actually mean? What is the simplest explanation? Occam's Razor and all that.

Nomu's Shock Absorption here is honestly irrelevant to me, since I find the idea that All Might is calculating Nomu's Quirk as he's punching him to be absurd. All Might is just going by what he remembers his strength was and where his strength is now as he's punching Nomu.

All Might knows how strong he was back in his prime, he knows how strong he is currently, and he knows how many punches it took to blow away Nomu. His statement isn't about Nomu's Shock Absorption working in a highly specific way. It's him finally realizing just how much weaker he's gotten from his heyday.

All Might was unaware of this until now because he's never fought anyone who was able to push him to his 100% ever since he fought AFO. He knew he was getting weaker, but he just didn't realize how much weaker he had gotten.

We don't know what Horikoshi was planning with this statement, we have to interpret the meaning of it to the best of our abilities. Death of the Author and all that. But I do find the idea that All Might can somehow calculate such a thing to be absurd.

I'm in a weird spot, I'm still not okay with the 60x multiplier. But find some of the reasoning being used here to be baffling.
 
I mean… I suppose that’s my stance as well.

The “he hits him 300 times so he knows he’s 60x weaker” argument seems a lot more concrete than “he hits him 300 times, notes the absorption rate of each of those punches and thus can claim his punches are getting absorbed a set amount, thus he would only need to hit him 5 times in his Prime.”

Whether that constitutes 60x or not I don’t really care, but that reasoning behind the “per-punch” argument kinda falls flat.
 
Okay well now I'm sure of what I had said at the start of this thread. The real problem is that lots of people here have an underlying problem with upgrading mha and or big number multipliers. Again it's okay to be cautious and critical of big upgrades or number. I'm fine with being skeptical. But after a certain point of being proven wrong and the multiplier being the most logical and reasonable decision (occams razor, just works better, the arguments against it have problems and that just accepting the multiplier doesn't have those problems) one must cast their doubts and biases away. At least that's how I see this current situation.
 
Well, if the per-punch argument is far too abstract and nonsensical due to the brain power from All Might required, then we have to look at consistency.

If Prime All Might is 60x stronger than his USJ version, what issues arise in terms of feats and scaling.

I think keeping statements away for a bit will help us in the long term.

Feats are > statements, so let’s just go by them.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
Well, if the per-punch argument is far too abstract and nonsensical due to the brain power from All Might required, then we have to look at consistency.

If Prime All Might is 60x stronger than his USJ version, what issues arise in terms of feats and scaling.

I think keeping statements away for a bit will help us in the long term.

Feats are > statements, so let’s just go by them.
Click to expand...
Well if we find any inconsistencies with the 60× prime allmight multiplier we'll get rid of it.
 
I mean we can go to ridiculous assumptions but the statement itself is pretty simple said by not the brightest guy as you guys said. The statement is literally I did with 5 punches what I now do with 300. I like going with the most likely assumption according to the Mangaka's words or the ones that can be explained with the least amount of mental gymnastics because thing is the mangaka probably used none. He just put the two numbers to denote the significant difference and said mmm a 60x difference sounds about right.

Also this Nomu without the Quirk. It would have likely being one shot right?
 
TheRustyOne said:
Maybe? We don't know Nomu's normal durability.

I'd say no actually, since it should at least be as durable as its own striking strength. But that's a conversation for another thread.
Click to expand...
A case could be made that the Quirk takes care of that. Have we seen any similar with a different Quirk exhibiting such raw strenght?
 
I think we can mostly agree that we've covered everything. Should we now just tag some mods that are knowledgeable in mha have them read through this and vote? Qawsedf234 already suggested doing that before.
 
Also if I’m real with you all, the main issue we’re encountering is anyone saying anything is as strong as All Might.

From feats alone, a 60x multiplier doesn’t seem too bad, as the only Prime AM character is Shigaraki who stomps people out and tanks their attacks, even when massively amplified, like they’re nothing, and Prime AM is noted by even his archenemy as the strongest guy ever.

But then the statements come in and suddenly everyone and their mother is All Might level, but some of the people that can harm those All Might level people are just skipped over like they don’t exist or aren’t comparable.

Like, “Prime All Might” and “All Might” are mixed and matched way too many times in the series to the point I can barely tell which is which when someone says something about him.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
I’ve tried to make notes beneath the two options that summarize the issues of both stances. Everyone let me know what else I can add so that people looking back to vote can know the pros and cons of each idea we’re having about the 300 punches feat.
Click to expand...
"Arfuments against this stance revolve around the many statements about "All Might level" characters, such as the USJ Nomu itself and its High End brethren. Inconsistencies in a 60x multiplier crop up when you use these statements, as the conflicting nature paints the picture that Weakened All Might is only somewhat weaker than his Prime."

This is not the case. This is supposed to show what's wrong with the 60× multiplier but if you accept such a difference between weakened allmight and prime allmight this statements sort themselves out. As this characters and nomus are never compared to prime allmight, they're compared to allmight. Prime allmight characters are aways explicitly called prime allmight level, not just allmight, (shigaraki).
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
Also if I’m real with you all, the main issue we’re encountering is anyone saying anything is as strong as All Might.

From feats alone, a 60x multiplier doesn’t seem too bad, as the only Prime AM character is Shigaraki who stomps people out and tanks their attacks, even when massively amplified, like they’re nothing, and Prime AM is noted by even his archenemy as the strongest guy ever.

But then the statements come in and suddenly everyone and their mother is All Might level, but some of the people that can harm those All Might level people are just skipped over like they don’t exist or aren’t comparable.

Like, “Prime All Might” and “All Might” are mixed and matched way too many times in the series to the point I can barely tell which is which when someone says something about him.
Click to expand...
Refer to my response
ShigarakiShimura said:
"Arfuments against this stance revolve around the many statements about "All Might level" characters, such as the USJ Nomu itself and its High End brethren. Inconsistencies in a 60x multiplier crop up when you use these statements, as the conflicting nature paints the picture that Weakened All Might is only somewhat weaker than his Prime."

This is not the case. This is supposed to show what's wrong with the 60× multiplier but if you accept such a difference between weakened allmight and prime allmight this statements sort themselves out. As this characters and nomus are never compared to prime allmight, they're compared to allmight. Prime allmight characters are aways explicitly called prime allmight level, not just allmight, (shigaraki).
Click to expand...
 
ShigarakiShimura said:
"Arfuments against this stance revolve around the many statements about "All Might level" characters, such as the USJ Nomu itself and its High End brethren. Inconsistencies in a 60x multiplier crop up when you use these statements, as the conflicting nature paints the picture that Weakened All Might is only somewhat weaker than his Prime."

This is not the case. This is supposed to show what's wrong with the 60× multiplier but if you accept such a difference between weakened allmight and prime allmight this statements sort themselves out. As this characters and nomus are never compared to prime allmight, they're compared to allmight. Prime allmight characters are aways explicitly called prime allmight level, not just allmight, (shigaraki).
Click to expand...
The issue presented is that if a 60x exists, and you see a statement from AFO comparing someone to All Might, your brain will immediately realize he must be talking about Prime All Might, because why would he be talking about anything else? So that’s why that’s on there because it’s an inconsistency taking into account who exactly is talking.

So did AFO just claim a Nomu, that is 60x weaker than AM’s prime, was actually as strong as his prime? Why else would he say this?

This stance of his is proven incredibly false later down the line in the manga, but when it’s so close to AM’s own statement it becomes blurry.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
The issue presented is that if a 60x exists, and you see a statement from AFO comparing someone to All Might, your brain will immediately realize he must be talking about Prime All Might, because why would he be talking about anything else? So that’s why that’s on there because it’s an inconsistency taking into account who exactly is talking.

So did AFO just claim a Nomu, that is 60x weaker than AM’s prime, was actually as strong as his prime? Why else would he say this?

This stance of his is proven incredibly false later down the line in the manga, but when it’s so close to AM’s own statement it becomes blurry.
Click to expand...

Is there any such statement? Could I see it?
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
The issue presented is that if a 60x exists, and you see a statement from AFO comparing someone to All Might, your brain will immediately realize he must be talking about Prime All Might, because why would he be talking about anything else? So that’s why that’s on there because it’s an inconsistency taking into account who exactly is talking.
Click to expand...
But again. AFO would have explicitly said prime allmight if that was the case since that's the standard in the verse (shigaraki is explicitly compared to specifically PRIME allmight). Also, the whole plan with the U.S.J. nomu was in hopes of fighting a weakened allmight. Also, what else is AFO supposed to say? Yall need to understand that "Weakened allmight" isn't an actual term in the verse. There's only allmight and prime allmight. The distinction is clear.
 
I appear to say:
I'm against the multiplier (I won't explain, it's not the point of my post)... but I'm also against saying that All Might Prime is not far behind his very weak counterparts.
  • There's really nothing to tell us that the Nomus are stronger than durable, while you have characters supposedly weaker than Prime All Might One-Shot them.
  • Worse considering that these same characters could not do almost anything to Shigaraki 75% (leaving aside whether he already had the strength of All Might Prime or not)
So the general assumption would be that Prime All Might should be able to One-Shot them, which tells us that there is at least one notable difference...
My opinion is to eliminate any type of Backscaling to All Might Prime (And if there is none, then simply never do it)
And now I'm leaving.
 
TheRustyOne said:
Haven't actually read through all of the pages.

But what statements are bringing up issues? From what you're saying, they'd bring issues regardless of the multipliers or not.
Click to expand...
The statement from AFO, right after Shigaraki is brought back, about Nomu being as strong as All Might, which shouldn’t be possible if he was 60x weaker.

Then Garaki’s statement about 75% Shigaraki, as he’s saying he’s “not quite All Might” to a 60x difference.

And… I think that’s it.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
The statement from AFO, right after Shigaraki is brought back, about Nomu being as strong as All Might, which shouldn’t be possible if he was 60x weaker.

Then Garaki’s statement about 75% Shigaraki, as he’s saying he’s “not quite All Might” to a 60x difference.

And… I think that’s it.
Click to expand...
And as I said, those statements sorts themselves out.
 
Sparkive said:
I appear to say:
I'm against the multiplier (I won't explain, it's not the point of my post)... but I'm also against saying that All Might Prime is not far behind his very weak counterparts.
There's really nothing to tell us that the Nomus are stronger than durable, while you have characters supposedly weaker than Prime All Might One-Shot them, so the general assumption would be that Prime All Might should be able to One-Shot them, which tells us that there is at least one notable difference...
My opinion is to eliminate any type of Backscaling to All Might Prime (And if there is none, then simply never do it)
And now I'm leaving.
Click to expand...
Well… I appreciate the post but idk if you can vote without an actual reason behind it. At least an FRA would be appreciated.
ShigarakiShimura said:
But again. AFO would have explicitly said prime allmight if that was the case since that's the standard in the verse (shigaraki is explicitly compared to specifically PRIME allmight). Also, the whole plan with the U.S.J. nomu was in hopes of fighting a weakened allmight. Also, what else is AFO supposed to say? Yall need to understand that "Weakened allmight" isn't an actual term in the verse. There's only allmight and prime allmight. The distinction is clear.
Click to expand...
You need to get that I KNOW THIS but I’m trying to lay out what the opposition is even saying in the first place.

If you would like to write out the full problems with the statements and how they don’t contradict a 60x multiplier you have my permission, I’m neither for or against any side here.
 
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