Powers & Abilities Formatting [Staff Only]

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT makes sense to me above.

However, if both he, @AKM sama , and @Mr._Bambu think that the new format is a bad idea, maybe I was mistaken in accepting it in the first place? I am not sure. I mainly just wanted our wiki layout to look more professional and easier to read, in a manner similar to Wikipedia.

 

[Damage3245]

@DontTalkDT makes sense to me above.

However, if both he, @AKM sama , and @Mr._Bambu think that the new format is a bad idea, maybe I was mistaken in accepting it in the first place? I am not sure. I mainly just wanted our wiki layout to look more professional and easier to read, in a manner similar to Wikipedia.

Users can have personal reservations and think something looks "ugly" but as you say making the wiki more professional and increasing readability takes higher priority.

We don't need to enforce the new format on every page, nor do we need to restrict pages to using a format that is bad for them like the earlier version of Garou's profile.

Letting users have a bit more flexibility instead of restricting everything to a single standard appearance which frankly produces some garbage walls of text sometimes is fine.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I personally agree, but DontTalk and AKM usually have better senses of judgement than I do.

 

[Damage3245]

Well, I personally agree, but DontTalk and AKM usually have better senses of judgement than I do.

I think some of DontTalk's points are fine. Some pages may not benefit from elaborated explanations or longer formats. His example of the Master page for instance, maybe that format really does work for that page, however Gas' page also really works in the format that it currently is in.

I think it'd be just as silly to forcibly change the Master page to the new format if it is currently working fine as it would be forcibly change the Gas page to using the old format which would be a huge downgrade and ruin the layout of the abilities on there.

Hence why the best compromise for all of us is to keep these features for the appearance optional, and let the users & page creators decide. If a page is formatted really well and displays information coherently then it's fine to keep it bullet pointed, or bolded, or in a scroll box or in tabbers, etc. These are all features for improving the way information is communicated to the user.

Restricting them totally is just making the site worse for the sake of conformality.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I agree with Damage.

 

[Vietthai96]

I totally agree with Damage, also with new format, Gas profile look better, due to the way it was presented. For example we know that Gas can performs Aura, Forcefield, Flight because of Ki, look pretty easy to index

 

[Antvasima]

I think some of DontTalk's points are fine. Some pages may not benefit from elaborated explanations or longer formats. His example of the Master page for instance, maybe that format really does work for that page, however Gas' page also really works in the format that it currently is in.

I think it'd be just as silly to forcibly change the Master page to the new format if it is currently working fine as it would be forcibly change the Gas page to using the old format which would be a huge downgrade and ruin the layout of the abilities on there.

Hence why the best compromise for all of us is to keep these features for the appearance optional, and let the users & page creators decide. If a page is formatted really well and displays information coherently then it's fine to keep it bullet pointed, or bolded, or in a scroll box or in tabbers, etc. These are all features for improving the way information is communicated to the user.

Restricting them totally is just making the site worse for the sake of conformality.

I personally agree, but I would much prefer a go-ahead from DontTalk and AKM.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

I think some of DontTalk's points are fine. Some pages may not benefit from elaborated explanations or longer formats. His example of the Master page for instance, maybe that format really does work for that page, however Gas' page also really works in the format that it currently is in.

I think it'd be just as silly to forcibly change the Master page to the new format if it is currently working fine as it would be forcibly change the Gas page to using the old format which would be a huge downgrade and ruin the layout of the abilities on there.

Hence why the best compromise for all of us is to keep these features for the appearance optional, and let the users & page creators decide. If a page is formatted really well and displays information coherently then it's fine to keep it bullet pointed, or bolded, or in a scroll box or in tabbers, etc. These are all features for improving the way information is communicated to the user.

Restricting them totally is just making the site worse for the sake of conformality.

Is this fine with you, @DontTalkDT and @AKM sama ? I personally agree with Damage and think that his new format is necessary for this wiki to start to look more professional and become more easily read by our visitors.

 

[Damage3245]

@Antvasima To reformat and reword my original draft for guidelines:


When listing Powers & Abilities, some formatting options are necessary and some are optional but may be recommended in order to present the information to users of the wiki in a clear way. Use your best judgement and look at existing profiles for inspiration. Some important things to keep in mind:

1) Links (Mandatory: When listing Abilities which have pages on the wiki already, it is important to link directly to them so that users can see explanations and examples of other users of these abilities. Surround the ability with links using square brackets: [[Example]].)

2) Justifications (Optional but recommended: Typically some Abilities should have a short justifications after them with necessary links as evidence, unless the ability is extremely self-evident and requires no explanation such as Superhuman Physical Characteristics. Longer and more detailed explanations should go down in the "Notable Attacks/Techniques" section)

3) Tabbers (Optional: If an Ability list becomes too extensive, the abilities can be separated into different tabs. It is recommended that this be done in a way that makes sense with the rest of the page, such as modelling the tabs off of character's keys or for different forms and transformations. Though you can put tabbers inside of other tabbers to break down the information more such as separating Abilities from Resistances, you should not overdo it. Do not go more than three tabs deep.)

4) Bolding (Optional: Abilities can be bolded to help distinguish them from the rest of the text. This is especially useful for large sections of text where parsing individual abilities from the rest may be difficult. Bolded abilities stand out clearer than non-bolded justifications.)

5) Scrollboxes (Optional: If an Abilities section is so long that they take up a huge portion of the page then they should be fitted into scrollboxes so the user can scroll more easily down the rest of the page. Do not use scrollboxes for short to medium lists of abilities as the box will be unnecessary)

6) Bullet Points (Optional: Abilities can be listed in paragraph format but sometimes, for more than just a small number of abilities, it may be clearer if the abilities are displayed in a list which displays the abilities in an organized fashion. See examples of pages that have incorporated bullet points successfully [here] and [here].)


Examples and more detailed coding explanations can be inserted later.

 

[Antvasima]

It mostly looks good to me, but it may be a good idea to get rid of the bullet points, as they mainly just take up unnecessary space, especially on mobile phones.

 

[Damage3245]

It mostly looks good to me, but it may be a good idea to get rid of the bullet points, as they mainly just take up unnecessary space, especially on mobile phones.

VSBW as a whole looks worse on mobile view. Tabbers don't work properly on purely mobile view at all too. So I don't think we should compromise some of our profiles just to cater to mobile users.

Bullet points on profiles that are just purely lists of abilities with minimal justifications are unnecessary and we won't use them there. And we won't use them on profiles that only have 10 abilities or less, but for medium to longer profiles such as Garou's or Gas, I think we should keep them. That seems like a fine compromise to me.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I am uncertain though. We should at least keep the mobile phone users in mind for consideration.

 

[AKM sama]

Is this fine with you, @DontTalkDT and @AKM sama ?

I have no strong views on the subject overall, but I do think too many optional changes might make profiles look inconsistent within themselves and defeat the purpose of standard format. I get that our profiles are already varied, but that's all the more reason to keep such changes to a minimum. I think this should be kept in mind while proposing any such changes. Most of the changes are fine.

But I don't see a point in bolding being optional. It will just make pages look ugly if I move from one page where all abilities are bolded, to another where they are not bolded. It's too inconsistent for my taste, and I think it breaks the standard format in a big way. So I'm heavily against that.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. So should bolding or not bolding the abilities in the ability lists be mandatory then? Also, what about the bullet points? Should we make it mandatory to not use them, as it takes up unnecessary space?

 

[Damage3245]

Okay. So should bolding or not bolding the abilities in the ability lists be mandatory then? Also, what about the bullet points? Should we make it mandatory to not use them, as it takes up unnecessary space?

If we make bolding mandatory, it will deal with the consistency issue while making abilities clear and visible on all profiles whether they're long or short.

As for bullet pointing, I will insist once again that should remain optional. There are profiles which benefit from it and there are also several profiles that do not use it which could be considered wasteful in terms of space already. Sometimes there are no perfect solutions that can be applied to every profile, so it is best left optional.

 

[Antvasima]

I still think that bullet points are likely harmful for mobile-using visitors, due to lack of room on their screens, and over 70% of our wiki visitors use mobile phones while viewing our pages.

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

Can't they just switch to desktop view?

The mobile format is hopeless anyway

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, but their screens are still small, so I am not sure if it would work well anyway.

 

[Damage3245]

I still think that bullet points are likely harmful for mobile-using visitors, due to lack of room on their screens, and over 70% of our wiki visitors use mobile phoneswhile viewing our pages.

I can't speak for everyone else, but I've used mobile view when looking at the profiles and didn't really encounter any issues.

Plus we are using bullet points plenty in other sections of the profile like the Notable Attacks area. As I said, there are no perfect solutions.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that mandatory bolding of the names of the powers and optional bullet points may be the best option here then.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

So, we are going to make bolding mandatory for the names of the powers? Does that mean that we have to go over all of the currently existing profiles and apply that change?

 

[Armorchompy]

I disagree with mandatory bolding, it's way too much to apply and might not look good on certain profiles.

 

[Damage3245]

So, we are going to make bolding mandatory for the names of the powers? Does that mean that we have to go over all of the currently existing profiles and apply that change?

That kind of thing would be handled by bots if we went down that route, though I'd be more in favor in just letting it be gradually added to profiles.

Though I would prefer most of all if we just concentrated on adding it to profiles where it would look best.

 

[AKM sama]

It would be way too much for even the bot to apply properly.

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

I don't like the idea of mandatory bolding. Maybe when we use the bullet point format, put not the normal format.

 

[Armorchompy]

I think bolding can and generally does look good on normal profiles, but definitely should not be mandatory.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't like the idea of mandatory bolding. Maybe when we use the bullet point format, put not the normal format.

I think bolding can and generally does look good on normal profiles, but definitely should not be mandatory.

I agree with this.

EDIT: If we use bolding only when we have the bullet points used, then that will help deal a bit with the consistency issue.

 

[Antvasima]

So, we are going to make bolding mandatory for the names of the powers? Does that mean that we have to go over all of the currently existing profiles and apply that change?

No, just for the profile pages with powers and abilities lists, not the compressed text block versions.

 

[Antvasima]

I don't like the idea of mandatory bolding. Maybe when we use the bullet point format, put not the normal format.

Yes, exactly.

 

[Damage3245]

No, just for the profile pages with powers and abilities lists, not the compressed text block versions.

Okay, that's more reasonable and more easily managed.

 

[Armorchompy]

yeah that's fine

 

[Antvasima]

What do you think, @DontTalkDT and @AKM sama ?

 

[AKM sama]

If it's just for the profiles with bullet points for P&A, then it's fine.

 

[Theglassman12]

If this is for pages that don’t have a lot of abilities then I wouldn’t mind. But pages with a long list of abilities I don’t think looks that good. Especially when we have this making the page looking much worse by making it hard to find what’s the abilities and what’s the different section in powers and abilities like AP.

 

[Damage3245]

If this is for pages that don’t have a lot of abilities then I wouldn’t mind. But pages with a long list of abilities I don’t think looks that good. Especially when we have this making the page looking much worse by making it hard to find what’s the abilities and what’s the different section in powers and abilities like AP.

That one looks like it is missing a final bullet point at the end just above the Attack Potency section. I'll fix that and hopefully it should make it clearer.

 

[Zaratthustra]

Has anyone tried making a really long page in the new format to see how it will look btw? Hopefully I didn't miss it if someone posted one already.

 

[Damage3245]

Has anyone tried making a really long page in the new format to see how it will look btw? Hopefully I didn't miss it if someone posted one already.

Ji Ning would probably qualify. Makes use of bullet points, bolding and tabbers for a huge list of abilities.

 

[Zaratthustra]

Ji Ning would probably qualify. Makes use of bullet points, bolding and tabbers for a huge list of abilities.

Well, I was the one who mentioned him. I mean something longer, like with 20-30 abilities on just a tabber. If no one did, I could make sandbox with one so we can see how it will look like.

 

[Damage3245]

Well, I was the one who mentioned him. I mean something longer, like with 20-30 abilities on just a tabber. If no one did, I could make sandbox with one so we can see how it will look like.

In cases like that, we'd probably use a scroll box too so the actual abilities list wouldn't take up a huge section of the page.