Powers & Abilities Formatting [Staff Only]

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima To reformat and reword my original draft for guidelines:


When listing Powers & Abilities, some formatting options are necessary and some are optional but may be recommended in order to present the information to users of the wiki in a clear way. Use your best judgement and look at existing profiles for inspiration. Some important things to keep in mind:

1) Links (Mandatory: When listing Abilities which have pages on the wiki already, it is important to link directly to them so that users can see explanations and examples of other users of these abilities. Surround the ability with links using square brackets: [[Example]].)

2) Justifications (Optional but recommended: Typically some Abilities should have a short justifications after them with necessary links as evidence, unless the ability is extremely self-evident and requires no explanation such as Superhuman Physical Characteristics. Longer and more detailed explanations should go down in the "Notable Attacks/Techniques" section)

3) Tabbers (Optional: If an Ability list becomes too extensive, the abilities can be separated into different tabs. It is recommended that this be done in a way that makes sense with the rest of the page, such as modelling the tabs off of character's keys or for different forms and transformations. Though you can put tabbers inside of other tabbers to break down the information more such as separating Abilities from Resistances, you should not overdo it. Do not go more than three tabs deep.)

4) Bolding (Optional: Abilities can be bolded to help distinguish them from the rest of the text. This is especially useful for large sections of text where parsing individual abilities from the rest may be difficult. Bolded abilities stand out clearer than non-bolded justifications.)

5) Scrollboxes (Optional: If an Abilities section is so long that they take up a huge portion of the page then they should be fitted into scrollboxes so the user can scroll more easily down the rest of the page. Do not use scrollboxes for short to medium lists of abilities as the box will be unnecessary)

6) Bullet Points (Optional: Abilities can be listed in paragraph format but sometimes, for more than just a small number of abilities, it may be clearer if the abilities are displayed in a list which displays the abilities in an organized fashion. See examples of pages that have incorporated bullet points successfully [here] and [here].)


Examples and more detailed coding explanations can be inserted later.

So what should currently be modified in the above draft?

 

[Damage3245]

I've included the two different format types in this updated breakdown:

When listing Powers & Abilities, some formatting options are necessary and some are optional but may be recommended in order to present the information to users of the wiki in a clear way. Use your best judgement and look at existing profiles for inspiration. Some important things to keep in mind:

1) Links (Mandatory: When listing Abilities which have pages on the wiki already, it is important to link directly to them so that users can see explanations and examples of other users of these abilities. Surround the ability with links using square brackets: [[Example]].)

2) Justifications (Optional but recommended: Typically some Abilities should have a short justifications after them with necessary links as evidence, unless the ability is extremely self-evident and requires no explanation such as Superhuman Physical Characteristics. Longer and more detailed explanations should go down in the "Notable Attacks/Techniques" section)

3) Paragraph Format (Default: Abilities are typically listed in a paragraph style, with the abilities (and their justifications) separated from each other by commas. This format may be preferable for profiles that have few abilities such as here, or an extremely long list of abilities such as here. Power sections that have few justifications may also be better presented in this condensed paragraph format such as here.)

4) Bullet Points and Bolding Format (Optional: Abilities can be listed in paragraph format as above, but for more than just a small number of abilities, it may be clearer if the abilities are displayed in a list which displays the abilities in an organized fashion. See examples of pages that have incorporated bullet points successfully here and here. Abilities in this format should be bolded to help distinguish them from the rest of the text. Do not bold abilities if they are not displayed in a bullet point format.)

5) Tabbers (Optional: If an Ability list becomes too extensive, the abilities can be separated into different tabs. It is recommended that this be done in a way that makes sense with the rest of the page, such as modelling the tabs off of character's keys or for different forms and transformations. Though you can put tabbers inside of other tabbers to break down the information more such as separating Abilities from Resistances, you should not overdo it. Do not go more than three tabs deep.)

6) Scrollboxes (Optional: If an Abilities section is so long that they take up a huge portion of the page then they should be fitted into scrollboxes so the user can scroll more easily down the rest of the page. Do not use scrollboxes for short to medium lists of abilities as the box will be unnecessary)

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. I suppose that seems fine, although shouldn't you place the "Scrollboxes" section at the end of the instructions list?

 

[Damage3245]

Thank you. I suppose that seems fine, although shouldn't you place the "Scrollboxes" section at the end of the instructions list?

Done. Moved tabbers and scrollboxes to the end.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Antvasima]

Bump.

This is still a very important revision, and we need to finish it.

Can somebody list all of the staff members who have helped out in this thread previously please?

 

[Antvasima]

@Damage3245

We also seem to need to mention that powers and abilities that have not been placed in a list format should also not be bolded, as we have consistently done previously. It would look far too messy, ugly, and inconsistent otherwise.

 

[Damage3245]

@Damage3245

We also seem to need to mention that powers and abilities that have not been placed in a list format should also not be bolded, as we have consistently done previously. It would look far too messy, ugly, and inconsistent otherwise.

I've added on this line to the suggested guidelines in my post just at the top of this page:

Do not bold abilities if they are not displayed in a bullet point format

I've also added links to example pages in the suggested guidelines up above.

 

[Armorchompy]

I disagree, I think that that's a perfectly fine alternative, helps space out the P&A without widening its size. And I'm not the only one who does.

 

[Damage3245]

I disagree, I think that that's a perfectly fine alternative, helps space out the P&A without widening its size. And I'm not the only one who does.

Fair. I think the bolding isn't messy or ugly as well. I agree with Ant that it is "inconsistent" but that's not a big negative by itself. If we make an improvement to a page that other pages don't have, then it is going to be inconsistent until most pages get improved over time.

 

[Armorchompy]

It's not an improvement to everything, some pages with shorter explanations wouldn't look great with it but I think it's perfect for pages with big explanations

 

[Damage3245]

It's not an improvement to everything, some pages with shorter explanations wouldn't look great with it but I think it's perfect for pages with big explanations

Was speaking generally. Didn't mean to say that it was an automatic improvement for every page.

 

[Armorchompy]

My bad then. Anyhoo I think it's fine, maybe a bit niche but definitely not something we should ban since it's not too intrusive either.

 

[Antvasima]

It is far too inconsistent, given that we have never used this formatting earlier, and would have to revise around 28,000 pages otherwise, and it also looks ugly and messy to read text that constantly switches back and forth between bolded and regular when it is compressed into a single segment, so I am definitely very strongly using my bureaucrat veto right to reject changing our standards in the manner that Armorchompy suggests. My apologies, but I am not budging in this regard.

 

[Damage3245]

It is far too inconsistent, given that we have never used this formatting earlier, and would have to revise around 28,000 pages otherwise, and it also looks ugly and messy to read text that constantly switches back and forth between bolded and regular when it is compressed into a single segment, so I am definitely very strongly using my veto right to reject changing our standards in the manner that Armorchompy suggests. My apologies, but I am not budging in this regard.

Well, as I said, the line you requested has been added to my suggested guidelines up above.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

looks ugly and messy to read text

For you

Besides the fact that P&A being formed in topics is accepted, why wouldn't this be correct as well? It is only optional, not mandatory

 

[Damage3245]

At this point I just want this topic to be over with as little fuss as possible, so I'm fine on compromising on not bolding the paragraph-style abilities sections, and just using it on the list-style abilities sections.

If nobody has any other objections to the six guidelines posted at the top of this page of the thread, then I think we should look to adding them to Standard Format page and closing this thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, as I said, the line you requested has been added to my suggested guidelines up above.

Thank you for helping out.

For you

Besides the fact that P&A being formed in topics is accepted, why wouldn't this be correct as well? It is only optional, not mandatory

I have already explained my view, and there is no point in repeating myself over and over. Also, this is a staff only thread regarding our overall wiki standards. It is not your place to interfere. My apologies.

If you wish to use bolded text for powers and abilities sections, use a list format. Then it will not look very messy and out of place.

At this point I just want this topic to be over with as little fuss as possible, so I'm fine on compromising on not bolding the paragraph-style abilities sections, and just using it on the list-style abilities sections.

If nobody has any other objections to the six guidelines posted at the top of this page of the thread, then I think we should look to adding them to Standard Format page and closing this thread.

That seems fine to me.

 

[Armorchompy]

It is far too inconsistent, given that we have never used this formatting earlier, and would have to revise around 28,000 pages otherwise

I'm not suggesting we do that??? This is a complete strawman, I'm saying it should be optional.

and it also looks ugly and messy to read text that constantly switches back and forth between bolded and regular when it is compressed into a single segment

Well I'm sorry to hear that but that's not something everyone feels.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I agree with Armor. Pages with a big P&A section look messy and are very hard to read since all the text blends together It's been a recurring issue where misread justifcations because it just becomes word soup after awhile.

Not every change has to be this sweeping, site-wide revision. That mindset has kept the wiki stagnant from even the most basic of improvements to the formatting of pages.

 

[Antvasima]

I'm not suggesting we do that??? This is a complete strawman, I'm saying it should be optional.

We need to have a certain degree of consistency and not use random standards. The by far easiest option is to stick with what we have used so far, and it also looks far less unprofessional.

Well I'm sorry to hear that but that's not something everyone feels.

As I have mentioned earlier, I am not budging when I strongly perceive something as harmful for the wiki as a whole, and am also very tired and busy. I cannot spend time extensively arguing with you by repeating myself over and over, and I have over 8 years of experience guiding the direction of this wiki, and have usually had good instincts in that regard.

My apologies, as I am usually trying to be reasonable, but you cannot always get what you want, and I occasionally have to make judgement calls as the longest serving bureaucrat here, and I do have veto rights for such situations, even if I extremely seldom use them.

 

[Damage3245]

Not every change has to be this sweeping, site-wide revision. That mindset has kept the wiki stagnant from even the most basic of improvements to the formatting of pages.

I agree with this comment, but we've got to pick and fight our battles. I'll respect Antvasima's opinion on the topic at this time, and we'll see how things unfold on the wiki with the new guidelines.

There's always the possibility of revisiting the topic in the future when things are less busy.

It's not like this will be the last opportunity ever to improve the pages.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Armor. Pages with a big P&A section look messy and are very hard to read since all the text blends together It's been a recurring issue where misread justifcations because it just becomes word soup after awhile.

Not every change has to be this sweeping, site-wide revision. That mindset has kept the wiki stagnant from even the most basic of improvements to the formatting of pages.

Not remotely true. We have made a massive amount of quite drastic revisions for the betterment of this wiki over the years, and I have supported the vast amount of them. However, this is one of the rare situations when I think that a suggested change would be downright destructive, and as such have to set my foot down as the senior bureaucrat here.

My apologies, but this particular change is not going to pass, no matter how much I am pestered about it, and if you really want the powers and abilities sections to look more structured and professional, you can just use the list format instead anyway.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Why do you make threads like this if you refuse to listen to other opinions?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

While I agree the bolded P&As look like utter garbage and may be the greatest affront to my eyes in recent times, I don't think it is a good look to deny all discussion, no. Ant's vote technically outweighs ours, however.

 

[Antvasima]

Why do you make threads like this if you refuse to listen to other opinions?

I listen to other opinions all of the time, and usually let other people make judgement calls in 99% of all discussions here, but I am also very exhausted and overworked and occasionally have to make judgement calls regarding what is potentially damaging for this wiki as a whole. My apologies, but all that you are achieving by bothering me further about this is to ensure that I only get 2-3 hours of sleep tonight.

 

[Damage3245]

Why do you make threads like this if you refuse to listen to other opinions?

Is this directed towards me, the thread creator? Or Antvasima?

Antvasima has listened to a lot of opinions brought up in this thread, but we're nearing the end of the discussion now and it's time to wrap things up essentially.

I listen to other opinions all of the time, and usually let other people make judgement calls 99% of the time, but I am also very exhausted and overworked and occasionally have to make judgement calls regarding what is potentially damagkng for this wiki as a whole. My apologies, but all that you are achieving by bothering me further about this is to ensure that I only get 2-3 hours of sleep tonight.

With respect Ant, the only person compelling you to be on the forum at a late hour and reducing your sleep is yourself. Go and get some rest. I've accepted the compromise so let's be done on this part of the topic.

 

[Antvasima]

While I agree the bolded P&As look like utter garbage and may be the greatest affront to my eyes in recent times, I don't think it is a good look to deny all discussion, no. Ant's vote technically outweighs ours, however.

My apologies. I only do this extremely rarely when I think that what is suggested is outright harmful for the wiki, but I am exhausted, and simply do not have the time to continue to repeat myself here over and over with all of my other tasks.

 

[Antvasima]

With respect Ant, the only person compelling you to be on the forum at a late hour and reducing your sleep is yourself. Go and get some rest. I've accepted the compromise so let's be done on this part of the topic.

My experience is that nobody else will handle my part of the workload here, so I have to try to be efficient.

Anyway, I would much prefer to finish this thread soon, yes.

 

[Damage3245]

My experience is that nobody else will handle my part of the workload here, so I have to try to be efficient.

Anyway, I would much prefer to finish this thread soon, yes.

Maybe so, but you still can't put the blame for your reduced sleep on anyone else here in the thread.

Anyway - I'll be heading offline soon myself. Will address any other comments tomorrow if they arise, but if not I feel we should just go ahead and add the new guidelines in. Many pages are already using them, after all. The guidelines are just codifying and explaining them.

 

[Antvasima]

If people keep repeatedly bothering me when I have many other tasks to handle before going to bed, and I am already very tired, I tend to gradually get in an annoyed mood. I am not perfect and have my limitations.

 

[Abstractions]

We also seem to need to mention that powers and abilities that have not been placed in a list format should also not be bolded, as we have consistently done previously. It would look far too messy, ugly, and inconsistent otherwise.

It is already adding inconsistency to be changing up the format and allowing for bullet point P&A sections, it actually is actively contributing to that because it is considered an optional, but acceptable form of structure.

Messy and ugly is a matter of personal preference, I'd also say. I think the new bullet point structure is ugly but if people want to do it they are free to, why are we nitpicking what methods we use to improve readability?

My apologies, but this particular change is not going to pass, no matter how much I am pestered about it, and if you really want the powers and abilities sections to look more structured and professional, you can just use the list format instead anyway.

You are willing to perceive something as minute as bolding as harmful but not an entirely new form of structure being introduced into pages which you yourself know creates inconsistency? And you won't budge on that? I don't particularly think that is fair to the majority here that disagree with this stance, what do our opinions matter if you don't listen to what we have to say?

I don't intend to sound confrontational, but I don't believe you have a logical reason to denounce bolding of abilities in this way that doesn't stem from your own personal preference and bias. I'm sorry.

 

[Damage3245]

Guys, I appreciate that you want to complain about this but this is the kind of thing that will have to be handled at another time.

Antvasima has already expressly said that he's not in the mood to discuss this further and more posts are just going to add to the negativity instead of making progress. I fully sympathize, but save your arguments for another time / thread.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I disagree, I think that that's a perfectly fine alternative, helps space out the P&A without widening its size. And I'm not the only one who does.

I'm in agreement with Armor on this one.

 

[Damage3245]

As unfortunate as it is, we've got to accepted Antvasima's decision for the time being. There may be another opportunity for this to come up in the future, and as someone who has multiple suggestions shot down by Antvasima's veto in the past, I can sympathize.

Any more comments about the bolding for non-list formats will be deleted. I don't want this thread to turn into a venting place against Antvasima's decision-making or to continue discussion for a suggested format which has been expressly rejected.

 

[M3X_2.0]

What's exactly is being discussed at the moment? I have a few stuff I want to say but I want to know what yall are discussing beforehand.

 

[Antvasima]

A list format looks more encyclopaedic/structured and professional, whereas bolding text back and forth in extremely cluttered text columns looks like an extremely messy "affront to the eyes" as Bambu put it.

I have many other tasks to handle before going to bed, so I simply do not have the time to continue to argue here.

 

[Abstractions]

Guys, I appreciate that you want to complain about this but this is the kind of thing that will have to be handled at another time.

When, Damage? Tomorrow? Next week? When do they decide to bring the subject up again and then have this same thing happen once more? Is it not better to handle this now and not later?

but save your arguments for another time / thread.

This isn't even an argument on my part, this is just me wanting Ant to acknowledge that his only stake on the matter is personal bias, which is a slippery slope into more issues.

Any more comments about the bolding for non-list formats will be deleted.

I was in the middle of typing this up before you made this say so, so I'll hope you respect my wish to keep it up.

 

[Damage3245]

What's exactly is being discussed at the moment? I have a few stuff I want to say but I want to know what yall are discussing beforehand.

The TL;DR of the main topic is there is a codified list of guidelines for the Power & Abilities sections which can be found here. Still subject to some rewriting / editing if necessary.

There was some discussion on this page for whether abilities should be bolded if they're not written out as a bullet-pointed list, but Antvasima has vetoed that idea.

 

[Damage3245]

@Abstractions; I'll leave your latest comment up. It's fine.