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Power Stars Low 2-C Upgrade

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GyroNutz said:
I think if we're discussing the scaling, we should be clear about the feats the cast have. These are the ones that are already accepted, to my knowledge. If I missed anything, let me know.
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We are already working on finding the proper translations, but in case they don't go through, here is what Mario's profile has currently:

Attack Potency: At least Multi-Solar System level (Can defeat users of the Power Stars, which can create pocket dimensions full of stars. Can harm Power Moon users, which are comparable to Power Stars. Fought King Boo who created several realms with many stars)
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I don't see Brobot, Rosalina, or Yoshi's anywhere. I'm not sure why they are being brought up.

If Power Stars didn't create any dimensions, then that removes the 4-A Power Star feat.

Lastly, I should add that all Lumas would downscale to the ending of Mario Galaxy, and while there were multiple Lumas needed to stop the collapse, a fraction of Low 2-C would still be Low 2-C. Considering Power Stars are the adult variants, I personally think that they need a flat Low 2-C rating. Power Stars are supposed to be adult lumas, so naturally they would be stronger than the Luma's highest output.
 
liluzivert said:
I don't see Brobot, Rosalina, or Yoshi's anywhere. I'm not sure why they are being brought up.
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Because they're accepted feats. Brobot's and Rosalina's feats are listed on their respective profiles, and they also both scale to Mario (and vice versa). I admittedly can't find the Yoshi Story feat listed under any AP sections, but I also remember it being accepted in the last major upgrade threads. If it's been removed/disregarded since then, I'd like to see it.
 
GyroNutz said:
Because they're accepted feats. Brobot's and Rosalina's feats are listed on their respective profiles, and they also both scale to Mario (and vice versa). I admittedly can't find the Yoshi Story feat listed under any AP sections, but I also remember it being accepted in the last major upgrade threads. If it's been removed/disregarded since then, I'd like to see it.
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They're accepted, but Rosalina and Yoshi Story isn't on Mario's profile, unless it's just one of those feats that count but aren't put on the page. And yeah, I'm not sure why a lot of this stuff is missing. But the page just has the main 4-A justification to be Power Stars.

If people are discussing the Power Star tier being High 4-C to 3-C, likely Low 2-C, then what becomes the tier for Star Children?
 
Maverick_Zero_X said:
It was discussed in one of those old threads scrutinizing the 4-A feats (the second one I believe).


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To be honest, it doesn't seem like any sort of conclusion was reached regarding the pop-up book feat there.

liluzivert said:
If people are discussing the Power Star tier being High 4-C to 3-C, likely Low 2-C, then what becomes the tier for Star Children?
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Depends. If the Low 2-C feats for Power Stars are accepted, then I could potentially see a stronger argument for flat Low 2-C. If not, then "Varies from at least 4-A to 3-C, likely Low 2-C" would likely still be the rating.
 
Thank you for helping out Gyro.
 
GyroNutz said:
To be honest, it doesn't seem like any sort of conclusion was reached regarding the pop-up book feat there.


Depends. If the Low 2-C feats for Power Stars are accepted, then I could potentially see a stronger argument for flat Low 2-C. If not, then "Varies from at least 4-A to 3-C, likely Low 2-C" would likely still be the rating.
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Right, so for now, can we discuss the Luma Universal Collapse feat until we get the translations together?

I said this:

5-B also doesn't even make sense for the base key, because Lumas can create entire galaxies, and even stop the Universe from collapsing, and Power Stars are supposed to be grown up Lumas. Why would Power Stars be less than 3-C or Low 2-C if they're all grown up?
Click to expand...
 
Antvasima said:
@DarkDragonMedeus @Dino_Ranger_Black @GyroNutz

What should we do based on the above information?
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@Antvasima @DarkDragonMedeus @GyroNutz I've already said my piece. All I know is that the 4-A for has got to go for the Power Star and Power Stars equally has to leave DK's page. We already have one of our official language translating members drop what the actual Japanese dialogue said and the true intent of SM64's plot. With it being established, I don't know why we are stonewalling by claiming he's wrong and relying on the word of a non-member associated with a user just because it's not the response hoped for.

If people want to go with 4-C instead, fine but I suggest reinforcing it and getting calcs for the Raphael and Dreamy Luigi feats for support. (Note: It's actually Kamek's feat since he's the one who powered him up with his own magic energy. There's no real way to explain how Yoshi ground pounding Raphael into space can create a star, so it's more logical to assume the Raphael's explosion is the result of Kamek's magic. Considering multiple characters have fought him, even Peach, it would help making the tier more consistent). If people would still rather stick with the 4-A feats, that's fine too but the Power Stars can no longer be part of it.

Ask for the Power Stars and the Lumas, they still aren't Low 2-C ........individuality at least. It still took an innumerable amount of Lumas to stop the destruction. Being a fraction of a whole isn't always a valid argument as we have artifacts and weapons with widely different stats regardless of their involvement with it's peak tier. We didn't make the Spritelings Low 2-C individually. In fact, we didn't make the Chaos Emeralds 2-C individually or anyone powered by just one of them. Why should we break this rule for this verse? Same goes for assuming every enemy is an automatic 3-C when powered by a Power Stars just because a Luma can transform into a Galaxy when they can also transform into planetoids, planets, and stars. All of 4 of these feat has equally been occurring throughout both Galaxy games. The variable tier exists for because they are subjected to change depending on the situation so we shouldn't blindly accept users always going to be at the stars' maximum power. And ask for the Low 2-C feat, only way that tier can be included if it's note that the Lumas only happened in large groups like the Spritelings. The amount of leniency for the high tiers, highballing, and denial in certain situations for very few reasons in this franchise has been rather too much recently if I have to be honest.
 
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Dino_Ranger_Black said:
We didn't make the Spritelings Low 2-C individually.
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Because they specifically note that they need to be with more of their kind to become more powerful, aka a canon varies tier.

Dino_Ranger_Black said:
In fact, we didn't make the Chaos Emeralds 2-C individually or anyone powered by it.
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Because a Chaos Emerald's power depends on how much positive energy someone is using. Yet another canonical varying reason.

Dino_Ranger_Black said:
Same goes for assuming every enemy is an automatic 3-C when powered by a Power Stars just because a Luma can transform into one when they can also transform into planetoids, planets, and stars.
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Because who's to say a Luma becoming a planet is their peak power and the best they can do? Even if I steelman your argument and say yes they vary, why should a Power Star be weaker than a Luma at all, Lumas are canonically treated as inferior to a Power Star.

Dino, both of your examples literally have "varies" on their profiles for a reason. You mind finding a fraction of infinite =/= infinite example that... doesn't vary?
 
Dino_Ranger_Black said:
Ask for the Power Stars and the Lumas, they still aren't Low 2-C individuality. It still took an innumerable amount of Lumas to stop the destruction. Being a fraction of a whole isn't always a valid argument as we have artifacts and weapons with widely different stats regardless of their involvement with it's peak tier. We didn't make the Spritelings Low 2-C individually. In fact, we didn't make the Chaos Emeralds 2-C individually or anyone powered by it. Why should we break this rule for them? Same goes for assuming every enemy is an automatic 3-C when powered by a Power Stars just because a Luma can transform into one when they can also transform into planetoids, planets, and stars. The variable tier exists for because they are subjected to changed depending on the situation. The only way that tier can be included if it's note that this only happened in large groups like the Spritelings. The amount of leniency for the high tiers and denial in certian situations in this franchise for very few reasons is rather too much if I have to be honest.
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Chaos Emeralds has multiple tiers due to the factor of positive energy. They get stronger due to the emotions of the user. The bigger the crisis, the more powerful they get. Therefore this is a false equivalence. Chaos Emeralds have a reason for variable tiers, Lumas do not.

And please please PLEASE stop bringing up Low 2-C fractions. We had this discussion last thread about Bowser touching Grand Star energy, and most agreed that you cannot divide Low 2-C. Verses like Bleach also got downgraded with "You can't divide Low 2-C" as one of the main arguments. Why should Mario get a pass on this rule? All it does is create more inconsistencies with the site rules themselves.
 
"It took an innumerable amount"

You make it sound like it WAS a big number. From what see see, it wasn't billions or trillions that did the feat, just the Lumas that were on the observatory. And nowhere does it say ALL the Lumas sacrificed themselves. We don't have that kind of context, and if they did, then the Lumas in places on the "edges of the universe" would net a speed upgrade for the verse for how quickly they traveled to get to black hole, not like there aren't already enough quad ends and feats.

Either way it's an upgrade in my eyes.
 
Also wouldn't the Lumas being Low 2-C grant infinite energy when transforming meaning they can transform into any of those and it not detract from their tier? Or is that not the right way of thinking?

Plus iirc it's a Lumas duty and responsibility to become what they're destined to be. It's not about power but more about what's inherent and what they wish to grow up to be as well. Yes, making a planet requires less energy than a galaxy, but all Lumas should have a comparable amount of power anyways, and any single one could become a galaxy if they so wished. This argument about using the low end of planet makes no sense to me.

A better argument is saying "how are Power Stars supposedly >> than all of the other things they can transform into? As a matured Luma they should be superior, but what makes them more powerful than say a planet or galaxy?"
 
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Dino_Ranger_Black said:
@Antvasima @DarkDragonMedeus @GyroNutz I've already said my piece. All I know is that the 4-A for has got to go for the Power Star and Power Stars equally has to leave DK's page. We already have one of our official language translating members drop what the actual Japanese dialogue said and the true intent of SM64's plot. With it being established, I don't know why we are stonewalling by claiming he's wrong and relying on the word of a non-member associated with a user just because it's not the response hoped for.

If people want to go with 4-C instead, fine but I suggest reinforcing it and getting calcs for the Raphael and Dreamy Luigi feats for support. (Note: It's actually Kamek's feat since he's the one who powered him up with his own magic energy. There's no real way to explain how Yoshi ground pounding Raphael into space can create a star, so it's more logical to assume the Raphael's explosion is the result of Kamek's magic. Considering multiple characters have fought him, even Peach, it would help making the tier more consistent). If people would still rather stick with the 4-A feats, that's fine too but the Power Stars can no longer be part of it.

Ask for the Power Stars and the Lumas, they still aren't Low 2-C ........individuality at least. It still took an innumerable amount of Lumas to stop the destruction. Being a fraction of a whole isn't always a valid argument as we have artifacts and weapons with widely different stats regardless of their involvement with it's peak tier. We didn't make the Spritelings Low 2-C individually. In fact, we didn't make the Chaos Emeralds 2-C individually or anyone powered by just one of them. Why should we break this rule for this verse? Same goes for assuming every enemy is an automatic 3-C when powered by a Power Stars just because a Luma can transform into a Galaxy when they can also transform into planetoids, planets, and stars. All of 4 of these feat has equally been occurring throughout both Galaxy games. The variable tier exists for because they are subjected to change depending on the situation so we shouldn't blindly accept users always going to be at the stars' maximum power. And ask for the Low 2-C feat, only way that tier can be included if it's note that the Lumas only happened in large groups like the Spritelings. The amount of leniency for the high tiers, highballing, and denial in certain situations for very few reasons in this franchise has been rather too much recently if I have to be honest.
Click to expand...
This seems to make sense to me.

@DarkDragonMedeus @GyroNutz

What do you think?
 
I still agree with Low 2C power stars via scaling to Lumas, Foxthefox1000 had give good reasons to beileve in these
 
I agree with Dino tbh, especially with his points that it still takes many Lumas/Power Stars to do the Low 2-C feats. The best direct feat done by a single Luma/Power Star is Galaxy level and never been a big fan if dividing feats that took a group effort from multiple Magic artifacts. It's not like two titans simply clashing to get the result, but it's a common trope that entire groups of weak characters have special powers to do Tier 2/1 stuff.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I agree with Dino tbh, especially with his points that it still takes many Lumas/Power Stars to do the Low 2-C feats. The best direct feat done by a single Luma/Power Star is Galaxy level and never been a big fan if dividing feats that took a group effort from multiple Magic artifacts. It's not like two titans simply clashing to get the result, but it's a common trope that entire groups of weak characters have special powers to do Tier 2/1 stuff.
Click to expand...
Ok, so where is the proof they have that ability? Stuff like chaos emeralds or fusion have actual reasons and statements that support the idea of variable tiers, and large leeps in power. You cannot assume Lumas work that way, unless you have clear evidence that suggests so. Otherwise you're basically justifying a tier for complete headcanon, instead of actually going with something reasonable.
 
I think that Medeus makes sense.
 
Maverick_Zero_X said:
I dislike the idea of a 5-B low end if 4-A is to be removed so here’s my proposal for the Power Star tiering based on what has been accepted.

“Varies from Large Star level (Can create black holes with this level of power and form constellations. Is stated to be comparable to Lumas by Rosalina, such are capable of becoming comets, planets, stars, and galaxies)”
Click to expand...
I also dislike a varying tier. We only add varying tiers is if a character's strength canonically varies in power from something. Power Stars do not fall under this. Only a single tier for it is allowed.
 
I don’t think it’s always about just having a canonical variable power level, I remember a few pages that use it for inconsistent characters, one that comes to mind is Karate Kid (DC) who supposed to be “peak human” but can tangle with Superman
 
I feel like things are developing a little too quickly in response to this development. Whilst in practice, it’s a nice idea to want to favour the original source material over localisations on this wiki, I think an issue with being so concerned over the Japanese text is a lot of people don’t really understand the language and so rely on the translations of others. This means when given a cookie-cutter translation, where all the nuances of the phrases are given no explanation, and it basically comes down to someone’s interpretation with no elaboration, people can’t really delve into the ins and outs. When we’re dealing with something so big that people are thinking of changing tiers over it, I feel these sorts of things are very important so everyone can be on the same page. Whilst I understand it can be quite time-consuming to have to explain these things when asked for a translation, I feel it’s probably best to cover them in this instance.

I’ve noticed two points of contention here, so I’ll try to cover both of them. The first issue hasn’t been mentioned much, but I’ve seen it being used to argue something quite awkward, so I’ll try to clear the air. The term Toad uses to refer to the worlds inside the paintings is “カイバツのくに”, which so far has been translated as “monster land”/”monster kingdom” on this thread. The key word here is “くに” (“kuni”), which is pretty clearly the hiragana for “国”. If you were to take a Japanese language course, you’d probably first come across the word “国” to mean “country”, like “Japan”, “England”, “USA”, etc. However, the word does go a lot deeper. In Japanese fiction, “国” is used very liberally, and Mario is especially creative with this. For example, in Paper Mario, “国”, “ワールド” (waarudo, i.e. world) and “世界” (sekai, i.e. world) are used interchangeably, with キノコ王国 (the Japanese name for the Mushroom Kingdom) sometimes referring to the entire planet. I’ve also been told the entire universe has been called the Mushroom Kingdom at some point in the franchise, but I couldn’t find a source for this. Also in Paper Mario, a world that’s said to be beyond the sky, stars, space (and even the void depending on your reading), Star Haven, is called “星の国” in Japan. Dream Depot is implied to be located here, as it makes a lot of allusions to it, and it’s a location where the Stars (such as the Star Spirits) live beyond outer space, so we can assume this place is indeed pretty impressive, though it’s hard to pinpoint an exact size to it. Super Mario Advance’s manual also goes between referring to Subcon as a “夢の国” (land/country/kingdom of dreams) and “夢の世界” (world of dreams), further showing the interchangeability between the two terms. As you might expect, the kingdoms in Odyssey are also referred to as “国”, though interesting all three Kingdoms on the Moon are seen as being part of the “月の国”, meaning it is large enough to wrap around the entire moon considering it has both the side facing the Earth and facing away from the Earth. Surprisingly, Freezeflame Galaxy is also sometimes referred to with “国”. A general rule of thumb is that “国” can be seen as an area/space with a ruler like a king or emperor, so I’m assuming this is in reflection of Baron Brrr, though the term is used on missions after their defeat.

With this in mind, we can pretty much see that “国” doesn’t exclusively refer to things that are around the size of a country in Mario, so the usage here doesn’t really dictate its size. In fact, it’s even used interchangeably with “世界” in this game, with another Toad referring to the painting worlds as モンスターのせかい, which means “monster world”. Though, anyone with even vague knowledge of the word “sekai” knows this is a very ranging term, which can mean something as simple as a planet, to an entire universe. However, considering there’s proof of real stars existing in the painting worlds, as well as consistent nods to having day-night cycles, it’s pretty clear we’re at least dealing with beyond planetary-range. However, even if this creative use of “国” throughout the franchise (and many other examples of Japanese fiction) is ignored and we take it super-literally, considering all the Power Stars in, say, Bob-Omb Battlefield are found within the battlefield and you don’t have to explore the painting world Super Mario Galaxy-style, you could argue the Toad is just referring to the part of the world that’s actually relevant to the task at hand, or that he just wasn’t aware of the sheer size of the world.

So with that out of the way, we get to the much more contended point. This entire part of the discussion has basically spawned from wanting to know if Bowser created the painting worlds in the Japanese version. Whilst many people are finding that the text is claiming Bowser used the Power Stars to make/create the worlds, Qliphoth Bacikal found it to mean Bowser used the Power Stars to instead cover up the worlds. Considering the same text is being used here, it seems quite interesting that two radically different translations have stemmed from it. So, what is the cause of all this? Well, it comes down to how the dialogue in this game has been approached. In Japan, a common decision in media that is made to be accessible to children, who tend to struggle with kanji, is to instead use hiragana. Hiragana is basically a phonetic alphabet, so children can read it with more ease, so it makes sense for Super Mario 64 to use it over kanji. However, this makes translation harder, as it favours the sound of the word over the meaning of the word, meaning if there are words that sound the same, it’s down to the translator to decide what sounds best given the context. The verb in question here is “つくろうとしています”. The problem is both “繕う” and “作ろう” are written as “つくろう” in hiragana, which has caused the conflicting translations.

“作ろう”, a conjugation of the verb “作る”, means to create/make, whilst “繕う” generally means to repair/fix, but can be interpreted as to cover up/keep up appearances. To elaborate on the latter, the keep up appearances pretty much means pretend things are okay, like putting on a straight face, so you’re basically covering things up from a social/personal point of view. I’ve seen people try to defend the “cover up” translation by pointing out that many of the paintings are sealed behind Star Doors, but that’s not really what Qliphoth meant by this from what I can see. This would mean the monster worlds in the paintings already exist in Peach’s Castle, and Bowser’s plan is to hide/deny their existence, which not only is a pretty weird plot considering Bowser is usually the one with the army of monsters, but would also use the word “葬る” (which has the hiragana ほうむる) instead. The phrase “繕うとしています” would be much more akin to Bowser wanting to fix or repair the painting worlds using the Power Stars, though considering there isn’t any implication that they were broken to begin with, this feels like an awkward reading, especially when I could only find 6 results of the verb being used that way grammatically on Google. Meanwhile, the phrase “作ろうとしています” seems to make much more sense given the context, and the phrase is used much more often by Japanese speakers. After all, Bowser creating monster worlds within Peach’s Castle generally seems more likely than Bowser wanting to repair monster worlds that Peach (who’s never really been associated with commanding monsters) apparently had at her disposal. So I’d be inclined to agree with the SM64 English localisation’s translation that Bowser created the painting worlds. Whilst Qliphoth’s interpretation isn’t wrong, it’s just awkward in both a grammatical and contextual point of view, making me feel less confident in this being what was intended to be taken away from this dialogue.

Hope this helped with explaining the context behind this piece of dialogue. I feel before we rush into the implications of what it means for tiering, we should first get to grips with what we’re dealing with, so this should lay out the facts.
 
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download_3.png
 
Okay, so then we're back to square one regarding if these are meant to be universes in context.

And I still think possibly Low 2-C should be considered for the Lumas
 
Emile makes a lot of solid points, so I think it's still logical that the Power Stars did create the painting realms, but I'm still unsure about them being universes solely based on the usage of the word Sekai/world.
 
Okay. Thank you for the evaluation.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Emile makes a lot of solid points, so I think it's still logical that the Power Stars did create the painting realms, but I'm still unsure about them being universes solely based on the usage of the word Sekai/world.
Click to expand...
Didn't we discuss this way back but paused for the sake of translation argument? 🤔
 
Okay. Thank you for the evaluation.
 
Well we're back to our original argument, so the creation argument is closed. At the moment, the only mod who disagrees with Low 2-C as a whole is Dino. DDM was okay with a possibly, Gyro and many other members agreed with Low 2-C.
 
I'm sorry but once again I have some major problems with the profile.

"Can defeat users of the Grand Stars, which can collapse and recreate the universe"

This has been brought up and debunked so many times I'm surprised this snuck its way onto the profile.

The Grand Stars act as fuel for the Galaxy Reactor, which in turn collapsed into a black hole that destroyed the universe. This is not a feat for anyone outside of the reactor. There seriously needs to be some sort of rule to stop this weird scaling people's physical stats to the feats of weapons outside their own abilities. A soldier doesn't have Small Building Level punches because they have a grenade on them.

"But Bowser/random bad guy was "empowered" by a Grand Star which therefore means they scale to all the energy it possesses"

No that is not how that works. In fact, the very guidebook everyone clings onto for these Tier 2 feats explicitly says that Bowser cannot even touch the energy produced by the generator without seriously hurting himself. I mean if Bowser cannot even touch the energy his generator produces without seriously hurting himself that kinda puts a dent in the "His physical strength scales to the entirety of the energy that his generator produces" claim. Let alone scales to the universe destroying black hole it collapsed into. It especially goes against the idea that random, nameless enemies who were "empowered" by these stars have the entirety of their energy within their body. It is super disingenuous to cherrypick one part of the guidebook to justify the reactor as Tier 2, only to then discard another part that explicitly goes against the idea of Bowser physically scaling to the reactor.

"Comparable to Lumas, which are capable of turning into Power Stars and galaxies"

Again, severely lacking context. The lumas magically transforming into galaxies applicable in combat. They don't have galaxy level offensive attacks. They're not throwing galaxy level punches or ki blasts at anything. They just magically transform into galaxies and can transform back. Not to mention that not every luma is even capable of turning into galaxies. Some simply turn into planets or comets. Mario and Bowser having Power Stars or whatever does not mean they scale to this special ability that they do not possess. Mario and Bowser cannot magically transform into galaxies. Only certain lumas can. This should go without saying, but we don't list a superpower on someone's profile if they do not have that superpower. Mario and Bowser do not have shapeshifting nor can they magically turn their bodies into galaxies. Again, you don't powerscale a special ability to someone who does not possess said ability.

I don't care too much what Mario's overall profile is at this point, but these two alleged feats in particular listed on his profile are disingenuous and out of context. It's attempting to scale Mario to a random weapon outside of his ability, and to a shapeshifter even when Mario himself does not have shapeshifting. These are not actual feats of Mario's or proper scaling.
 
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Lol are you seriously back at it again with the "Bowser gets burned" argument? We discussed this last thread and your side held the weaker arguments. Burning doesn't mean shit.

However, I'm not quite sure why we treat Power Stars as >>> anything the Lumas turn into or do. What says Power Stars take or have more energy than a Galaxy? I don't think it's a definitive thing unless there is a statement or showing that clearly shows Power Stars are the greatest thing a Luma can become.
 
Ryukama said:
I'm sorry but once again I have some major problems with the profile.

"Can defeat users of the Grand Stars, which can collapse and recreate the universe"

This has been brought up and debunked so many times I'm surprised this snuck its way onto the profile.

The Grand Stars act as fuel for the Galaxy Reactor, which in turn collapsed into a black hole and destroyed the universe. This is not a feat for anyone outside of the reactor. There seriously needs to be some sort of rule to stop this weird scaling people's physical stats to the feats of weapons outside their own abilities. A soldier doesn't have Small Building Level punches because they have a grenade on them.

"But Bowser/random bad guy was "empowered" by a Grand Star which therefore means they scale to all the energy it possesses"

No that is not how that works. In fact, the very guidebook everyone clings onto for these Tier 2 feats explicitly says that Bowser cannot even touch the energy produced by the generator without seriously hurting himself. I mean if Bowser cannot even touch the energy his generator produces without seriously hurting himself that kinda puts a dent in the "His physical strength scales to the entirety of the energy that his generator produces" claim. Let alone scales to the universe destroying black hole it collapsed into. It especially goes against the idea that random, nameless enemies who were "empowered" by these stars have the entirety of their energy within their body. It is super disingenuous to cherrypick one part of the guidebook to justify the reactor as Tier 2, only to then discard another part that explicitly goes against the idea of Bowser physically scaling to the reactor.
Click to expand...
Damn bro... it's almost like Bowser gets harmed by 4-Dimensional, Low 2-C, Universal+ energy and is still alive. Man it's like surviving Universal+ energy gives you the tier. Boi that's just crazy....
 
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