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Power Stars Low 2-C Upgrade

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When your entire claim is "Bowser physically scales to the entirety of the energy this reactor creates" and Bowser cannot even touch this energy without hurting himself, then yes that is a serious point against said claim.

Also even if this burning statement wasn't there, the fact of the matter is that Mario/Bowser have a grand total of zero Universe Level feats in this game. The Grand Stars powered a weapon that eventually collapsed into a blackhole. That has nothing to do with Mario or Bowser's own physical power. I should not have to explain why someone does not physically scale to a weapon outside their power that happened to explode.
 
Ryukama said:
"Comparable to Lumas, which are capable of turning into Power Stars and galaxies"

Again, severely lacking context. The lumas magically transforming into galaxies applicable in combat. They don't have galaxy level offensive attacks. They're not throwing galaxy level punches or ki blasts at anything. They just magically transform into galaxies and can transform back. Not to mention that not every luma is even capable of turning into galaxies. Some simply turn into planets or comets. Mario and Bowser having Power Stars or whatever does not mean they scale to this special ability that they do not possess. Mario and Bowser cannot magically transform into galaxies. Only certain lumas can. This should go without saying, but we don't list a superpower on someone's profile if they do not have that superpower. Mario and Bowser do not have shapeshifting nor can they magically turn their bodies into galaxies. Again, you don't powerscale a special ability to someone who does not possess said ability.
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Damn bro, it's almost like the Lumas transforming into galaxies is their energy output, and the Power Stars are used as energy. Just crazy man...
 
Damn bro, find a single instance when Mario is shown or stated to magically turn his body into a galaxy. Until then stop acting condescending and attempting to give shapeshifting to a person who doesn't have shapeshifting. If a character is able to turn into a mountain and another character can't, that other person isn't given 7-A striking for some reason. You guys just attempt to scale Mario to anything if he is even 6 degrees of separation from something that might be seen as a cosmic feat.
 
Literally everyone and everything survived the universe reset, because guess what, the universe was reset. That isn't a feat for Bowser anymore than it is for the insects or grass.
 
And I would like to add that the supporters for Low 2-C's tone is not appropriate, you are acting like condescending dicks.
 
Ryu your arguments don't make much sense honestly.

And this is a big derailment and not the point of the thread? We had already settled this topic in the last thread. Please move the hell on or make your own CRT to debunk it if you wish.
 
Ryukama said:
Literally everyone and everything survived the universe reset, because guess what, the universe was reset. That isn't a feat for Bowser anymore than it is for the insects or grass.
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The universe was reset
Everyone surviving the reset because it's a reset
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Wha......
Anyways this one has been refuted, there is difference between tanking the big bang and exist because of the big bang, i think everyone knows this
 
Yeah, wasn’t this agreed upon last time? Ryu, this complete derailment. We’re talking about the power stars. Not the entire cast or the scaling. Just the power stars and their feats.
 
Grand Stars and Lumas already have agreed upon tiers and feats. We are using their current stats on the wiki as a possible means to scale the Power Stars to, with the Power Stars being the main topic of this CRT.

Any other scaling chains that don't relate back to the Power Stars is irrelevant in this thread.
 
The Grand Stars and the lumas are not agreed upon. Dino and Medeus has already mentioned several flaws with rating individual ones as Galaxy/Universe level.

And of course that will inevitably take some of the feats off of Mario and Bowser's profile.
 
Ryukama said:
The Grand Stars and the lumas are not agreed upon. Dino and Medeus has already mentioned several flaws with rating individual ones as Galaxy/Universe level.

And of course that will inevitably take some of the feats off of Mario and Bowser's profile.
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They aren't? But idk man, the last thread had multiple staff agreements, including Medeus and Gyro, which is why it got through. Oh well...
 
Grand Stars are definitely agreed to be Low 2-C and Lumas are definitely Galaxy. We only brought up a possibly Low 2-C scaling for Lumas in this thread, and yes, they aren't exactly for that rating, but it doesn't mean they're against their ratings as a whole.
 
Yeah, I think we should ignore Ryu and go back to the topic at hand. He's clearly derailing about things that were already decided on and we need to figure out the actual rating for the Power Stars.
 
Though speaking of Lumas I haven't seem them provide a good argument why we can't have a possibly Low 2-C rating for them. It's just using a trope of "allied together people get a strong boost/amp" which has NO context supporting it for the Luma feat.

Like I said before, there's not even much proof a ton of Lumas were needed to do the job given what wee see happen in the ending. At best, the Comet Observatory's Lumas were the only ones who participated if you look at the ending. And the guide never says anything about Lumas sacrificing themselves or their numbers so what we see in the game takes priority in this case.
 
The scaling Bowser to the reactor's black hole and scaling Mario to a specific type of luma's shapeshifting was rejected in several threads in the past and I still have issues with it. That's why I mentioned it.

But either way I will just say I agree with Dino's points and leave it at that for now.
 
That's still no excuse to be rather rude just because someone disagrees with you, right or not.

You keep downplaying the amount of Lumas involved with that feat when it is definitely in the higher numbers, high enough to really question if that they are capable of doing this on their own or outright refute it and claim that it is pure headcannon to suggest they can only perform a Low 2-C feat in groups just because "they didn't say that" when it's headcannon in itself to claim they can do so themselves for those exact same reasons. It's pure wank to claim a single Luma is Universal by itself when multiple of them tried to stop what a single Grand Star did. When neither are supported by WoG or context, we go with what we are presented. It's always been like that. The ending ultimately proves that Lumas nor Power Stars are universal by themselves.
 
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Anyway, to reiterate my point. Whether you want to argue about the Lumas stopping the collapse of the universe, or Power Stars extending the worlds so that they encompass Mario's universe. I think the same point applies.

If something is Low 2-C, then dividing it by any finite number will still give you a Low 2-C rating. And honestly this might have to be made a rule. I've seen characters like Ness not scaling to higher dimensional energy just because it "could" be a dimension smaller. And this was right after Bleach got downgraded, because of the remnants of Reio and the captains scaling to Low 2-C energy. Either way, it's gonna be really problematic to have this double standard stay on the site.

Also, the opposing side brought up the argument that it could be a variable tier. This has zero evidence. Artifacts that have the tier, like Chaos Emeralds, have it for separate reasons, such as Positive Energy and it's ability to become stronger depending on the situation. People are also saying it could be like Fusion too, but in order for that to be the case, the Power Stars would have to fuse into a more powerful version, which we don't have any evidence for.

Ultimately, Power Stars should probably have a flat Low 2-C rating. I feel like if these arguments above get accepted, then I feel like we'd either be allowing double standards, or creating assumptions without any real evidence to support it.
 
I'm not downplaying it. I even looked at the ending to confirm. You can visibly count exactly how many Lumas were involved and see them diving down and becoming glowing spots, and most if not all come from where the comet observatory and peach's castle were.

I doubt under 100 is a good enough number for Lumas not to get some upgrade, even if it's only a "possibly" rating.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
What says Power Stars take or have more energy than a Galaxy? I don't think it's a definitive thing unless there is a statement or showing that clearly shows Power Stars are the greatest thing a Luma can become.
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I also agree with this. There is literally not a single statement in the entire game that says "Power Stars are superior to the lumas that can turn into galaxies." There's just Rosalina saying "Some lumas become planets, some become comets and a few become Power Stars." (Notice how galaxy isn't even mentioned in this line and yet somehow it's the proof that Power Stars are superior to galaxy spawning lumas)
 
Also yes it should go without saying but if it takes a collective group of something to perform a feat, then the individuals do not get scaled to said feat.

"But a millionth of infinity is still infinity"

The vast majority of fiction does not run on dimensional tiering logic, and also it is a very common thing for a collective group's power to be exponentially greater than the sum of its parts. We're not gonna upgrade Dragon Ball civilians just because they can contribute somewhat to a Spirit Bomb.
 
Ryukama said:
Also yes it should go without saying but if it takes a collective group of something to perform a feat, then the individuals do not get scaled to said feat.

"But a millionth of infinity is still infinity"

The vast majority of fiction does not run on dimensional tiering logic, and also it is a very common thing for a collective group's power to be exponentially greater than the sum of its parts. We're not gonna upgrade Dragon Ball civilians just because they can contribute somewhat to a Spirit Bomb.
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Yes but what I am saying is that verses got downgraded due to the premise of dimensional tiering and not being able to divide infinity. If we really accept this, then many of those verses (like Bleach) will have to be brought up again. This is an insane double standard and there needs to be a decision on it. Also, Spirit Bombs could easily just be 3D at most, meaning they don't actually qualify for infinity.
 
At best I think the fact Rosalina says that "few" become Power Stars while the other trasnformations are more common implies that Power Stars are the greatest thing a Luma can become due to it being a rarity. Since Lumas end up becoming things via what appears to be stored energy, it's a natural assumption to assume that the rarer a transformation is, the more energy that's required to get there, thus making it less common.

As for galaxies I'm pretty sure Rosalina in other statements and the games themselves treat Lumas becoming galaxies as pretty common.
 
It's not a double standard if Power Stars and Lumas wouldn't receive the rating for reasons similar to those verses'. In fact, it just reinforces said standards of this site if they are also exempt from it and proves that just simply being involved in a Low 2-C feat doesn't grant you the rating if there are too many conditions against it. This is nothing but an attempt to flex the verse and making characters stronger than they actually are.
 
Logically it wouldn't make any sense for groups not to scale somewhat to a feat performed, ESPECIALLY if it's one that requires pure energy output. Don't we cut values in parts for the number of people who helped performed it in other feats? I've definitely seen it on some calcs, accepted ones at that.

We have no context supporting the fact they got a boost or amp because they joined forces and worked together. There is no proof there were billions or trillions and there's a countable amount in the balls of light that appear.

This isn't some scaling argument where you can assume there was less energy being output by a villain the group is teaming up to defeat, this is a stable, constant Low 2-C event being countered and reversed by a group via pure energy. Is Samus & Joey Samus not Universe anymore because there were multiple black holes and white holes needed and not just one single attack?
 
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Dino_Ranger_Black said:
It's not a double standard if Power Stars and Lumas wouldn't receive the rating for reasons similar to those verses'. In fact, it just reinforces said standards of this site if they are exempt from it and proves that just simply being involved in a Low 2-C feat doesn't grant you the rating if their are too many conditions against it. This is nothing but an attempt to flex the verse.
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And what are the contradictions? You said "There's millions of Lumas that stopped the collapse", but infinity divided by a few million is still Low 2-C energy. And it's been well applied on that Bleach thread that the Reio remnants were divided into multiple smaller pieces, with Kukui arguing that dividing Low 2-C is Low 2-C. It was argued last time in the Low 2-C Mario thread, where the opposition argued that Bowser touching a portion of the energy contradicted the feat, while the Low 2-C side argued that you (again) can't divide infinity. Those two threads were accepted.

In other words, them being a "group" means nothing without evidence that they vary in power. A finite amount of a group of energy would never be able to reach infinity without a statement that suggests they can. It really just feels like you guys will flip the rules to prevent any upgrade...
 
liluzivert said:
Also, Spirit Bombs could easily just be 3D at most, meaning they don't actually qualify for infinity.
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You don't understand. By your logic a regular civilian provided 1/billionth of the energy behind a 4-A attack, which means we must upgrade every random background character in Dragon Ball to above Frieza level. When in actuality it's clear that the collective power is exponentially greater than the sum of its parts and you cannot just divide it like this. Similarly, unless you can actually find a single piece of evidence that an individual luma is capable of performing this feat that a collective number of them did, then they do not scale.
 
Ryukama said:
You don't understand. By your logic a regular civilian provided 1/billionth of the energy behind a 4-A attack, which means we must upgrade every random background character in Dragon Ball to above Frieza level. When in actuality it's clear that the collective power is exponentially greater than the sum of its parts and you cannot just divide it like this. Similarly, unless you can actually find a single piece of evidence that an individual luma is capable of performing this feat that a collective number of them did, then they do not scale.
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This is actually false, there are plenty of Dragon Ball characters that have higher energy output than a normal human does. Not to mention it's the energy itself, a human could harness that energy if they trained hard enough (like Krillin).

And in these cases with lumas, we simply can't divide something like infinity. 4-A is a finite amount, while Low 2-C is not.
 
None of the Bleach characters are Low 2-C from what I've seen, except for Soul King but the reason is much more justifiable than this entire thread, so the point still stands. No one is arguing about the feat itself, because it's a bonafied Low 2-C one. It's how it was conceived. Just because Lumas stopped the Grand Star from destroying the universe, doesn't mean they are Universal individually. Only in groups and it makes sense in context because the universe is occupied by multiple galaxies and stars. Using the fact it never was stated in game or by source is a defeated argument because it's also never said in game or sources that the otherwise is true. We go by what we have seen and given, not what we want. Using the number argument is pointless because the fact remains unchanged. Maybe if it's two or a low countable believable number, I can see the point of this argument. As of now, no dice.
 
Ryukama said:
Again, severely lacking context. The lumas magically transforming into galaxies applicable in combat. They don't have galaxy level offensive attacks. They're not throwing galaxy level punches or ki blasts at anything. They just magically transform into galaxies and can transform back.
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Really? When did this happen?

Also, characters don't need to destroy galaxies with a punch to be Galaxy level. They need to be able to generate enough energy to get to that level, which Lumas do by becoming galaxies, with Power Stars being able to generate comparable amounts of energy and there being numerous instances of characters being powered up by that level of energy. Also, Luma scaling has been accepted for ages now, so I'm not really sure why it's being brought up here.
 
GyroNutz said:
Really? When did this happen?

Also, characters don't need to destroy galaxies with a punch to be Galaxy level. They need to be able to generate enough energy to get to that level, which Lumas do by becoming galaxies, with Power Stars being able to generate comparable amounts of energy and there being numerous instances of characters being powered up by that level of energy. Also, Luma scaling has been accepted for ages now, so I'm not really sure why it's being brought up here.
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No the scaling was rejected in multiple previous threads and again, these specific types of lumas magically turning themselves into a galaxy is a special ability unique only to them. Mario and Bowser cannot turn themselves into a galaxy therefore they do not scale to their shapeshifting abilities. If someone's "7-A feat" is them shapeshifting into a mountain you don't scale that to someone who isn't capable of shapeshifting into a mountain.

Also as I've mentioned before these characters that are "powered up by Power Stars" did not absorb the entirety of their energy. Even Bowser cannot touch a tiny portion of the energy for a brief second without badly hurting himself, let alone absorbing all of energy inside his body and holding it within himself indefinitely.
 
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Don’t meant to bother anyone in the middle of this but I noticed Maverick mentioned the Black Hole Power Star thing, has anyone checked the Mario Galaxy guide on that star?, reading it seems to kinda imply it could be just the Black Hole hiding the star but also says the Black Hole “transforms” into a star
 
Dino_Ranger_Black said:
None of the Bleach characters are Low 2-C from what I've seen, except for Soul King but the reason is much more justifiable than this entire thread, so the point still stands. No one is arguing about the feat itself, because it's a bonafied Low 2-C one. It's how it was conceived. Just because Lumas stopped the Grand Star from destroying the universe, doesn't mean they are Universal individually. Only in groups and it makes sense in context because the universe is occupied by multiple galaxies and stars. Using the fact it never was stated in game or by source is a defeated argument because it's also never said in game or sources that the otherwise is true. We go by what we have seen and given, not what we want. Using the number argument is pointless because the fact remains unchanged. Maybe if it's two or a low countable believable number, I can see the point of this argument. As of now, no dice.
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You misread the entire point. Bleach WAS Low 2-C, and got downgraded, because of Reio remnants scaling to the captains, who haven't shown that level of power. What you are saying would go against what Kukui said about Bleach.
 
liluzivert said:
This is actually false, there are plenty of Dragon Ball characters that have higher energy output than a normal human does. Not to mention it's the energy itself, a human could harness that energy if they trained hard enough (like Krillin).

And in these cases with lumas, we simply can't divide something like infinity. 4-A is a finite amount, while Low 2-C is not.
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I'm not talking about Krillin. I'm talking about the regular, untrained civilians whose energy was used to create the Spirit Bomb. By your logic of dividing a collective feat by every individual who performed it you're still going to get nonsense like planetbusting background characters. When in reality it's simply just a common trope of a collective power being exponentially greater than the sum of its parts. Individuals do not scale to collective feats.
 
Ryukama said:
No the scaling was rejected in multiple previous threads and again, these specific types of lumas magically turning themselves into a galaxy is a special ability unique only to them. Mario and Bowser cannot turn themselves into a galaxy therefore they do not scale to their shapeshifting abilities. If someone's "7-A feat" is them shapeshifting into a mountain you don't scale that to someone who isn't capable of shapeshifting into a mountain.
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This indicates that Power Stars can be 3-C, which are the same tools that act as a power source for Bowser and his minions. If a Luma can output that much energy to become a Galaxy, and Power Stars are just used as sources for power, then the stars being 3-C make sense. The justification might have to be rewritten though.
 
But Low 2-C is infinite energy, Ryu. And there weren't any billionths in this feat anyways. We can only go by what we observe in the games and there was WAY less than even 100 performing the feat, hell, maybe not even 50. These are what we can "see" DRB, unless you can tell me otherwise that there were way more. But the fact is you CAN count the amount in tbe cutscene because they become big balls of light.

Let me also repeat that Power Stars can empower enemies previously empowered by Grand Stars. Yes, some of these events depowered Mario, but there are times where they didn't such as Gobblegut.

Let me also add that while Grand Stars do supply a significant boost to the Observatory's power, you still needed a set number of Power Stars to fly to the Center of the Universe/Galaxy and even "another world." Grand Stars are superior yes, but nothing says they are infinitely superior.

Hell, Star Bits, those things Lumas constantly feed on? The intro to Galaxy straight up says that Star Bits collected together will become "great Power Stars" while showing a picture that resembles a Grand Star.

This means Lumas constantly feed on things that can become Grand Stars, those Low 2-C artifacts.
 
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