Power Stars Low 2-C Upgrade

[DaReaperMan]

Ryu, why are you trying to divide Infinity into a number? Its like saying if you divide High 3-A enough you can get 3-A.

 

[Ryukama]

We can only go by what we observe in the games

Yes which is the fact that it takes a collective group to perform this feat and that nothing suggests an individual one can do the same thing.

And "we can only go by what we observe in the games" and yet we can just assume Mario and Bowser can magically transform their bodies into galaxies when absolutely nothing suggests that nor is it "observed in the game."

And "We can only go by what we observe in the games" yet we can just assume that every character that comes into contact with a Power Star must've absorbed the entirety of its energy even when that isn't stated or shown (in fact the opposite with Bowser)

If we're only going "by what we observe in the games" so many of these claims just wouldn't be a thing.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

Exactly. And that's why the Lumas can't be Low 2-C individually either because they didn't show that power too. A fraction does not equate to a whole all the time.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Lol are you guys even reading? Really doesn't seem like it.

 

[liluzivert]

I'm not talking about Krillin. I'm talking about the regular, untrained civilians whose energy was used to create the Spirit Bomb. By your logic of dividing a collective feat by every individual who performed it you're still going to get nonsense like planetbusting background characters. When in reality it's simply just a common trope of a collective power being exponentially greater than the sum of its parts. Individuals do not scale to collective feats.

You ignored the fact that the ones who gave him power were also some of the strongest characters in his verse at the time. Their energy would logically be way, way higher than a regular human's energy. Not to mention this is also finite energy. The difference between 4-A to 5-B is smaller compared to the difference between High 3-A to Low 2-C. It would make far more sense to say that one Luma is a very small level of Low 2-C, than to say that millions of lumas are somehow creating uncountably infinite power, when one can only make a galaxy, and them combined at most should only be multi-galaxy at best.

 

[DaReaperMan]

If you want to get down to it Lumas are flat 4-A dividing from the 3-C feat.

 

[Ryukama]

I'm not sure how many times I need to explain that in fiction a collective power can often be exponentially greater than the sum of its parts. It is not always just oh a million lumas each adding up their power equally into this attack.

Again, random civilians in Dragon Ball are not starbusters just because you can divide the 4-A attack by a few billion.

Actually try to find an individual feat from a luma that is Universe busting instead of trying to scale them all to a feat that they can only do collectively.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

Stop with the condescension.

In that case, let's make every single damn Digimon 1-C because recently in the Digimon Adventure 2020 anime, Wargreymon busted Zeedmilleniumon with Gaia Force in a Spirit Bomb-like fashion.

 

[Starsprite53]

Yep let's use dragon ball's "dividing finite number" case without further context as a counter argument for a "dividing Infinite" in a another franchise

And "we can only go by what we observe in the games" and yet we can just assume Mario and Bowser can magically transform their bodies into galaxies when absolutely nothing suggests that nor is it "observed in the game."

Why the heck would they transform into a galaxy in the first place.

And "We can only go by what we observe in the games" yet we can just assume that every character that comes into contact with a Power Star must've absorbed the entirety of its energy even when that isn't stated or shown (in fact the opposite with Bowser)

Yep let's shift it to "They didn't use It's full power cuz i said so"

 

[DaReaperMan]

If you won't accept dividing the feat then Lumas individually are probably unknown, the only thing you can slap a tier for them on is through hax. End of story. That is what you are pushing Dino, Ryu.

 

[liluzivert]

I'm not sure how many times I need to explain that in fiction a collective power can often be exponentially greater than the sum of its parts. It is not always just oh a million lumas each adding up their power equally into this attack.

Again, random civilians in Dragon Ball are not starbusters just because you can divide the 4-A attack by a few billion.

Actually try to find an individual feat from a luma that is Universe busting instead of trying to scale them all to a feat that they can only do collectively.

Are you even reading? Like at all? No one said that one Luma is equal to the energy used in that cutscene, but they would have the same tier. There are various levels of Low 2-C. And 1/millionth of Low 2-C is still the same tier regardless. This does not mean they can go toe to toe with Bowser just because they have the same tier. I thought this was made extremely clear even in the early days in this site.

And again, Goku got energy from literal Solar System Busters, why does this sound entirely unreasonable?

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I've just given a whole post showing how Power Stars and Lumas can definitely still be scale to Low 2-C even without the painting world arguments.

What we SEE happen is that Bowser was draining Grand Stars of almost all of their energy to the point Lumas feared for the livelihood of these artifacts within the very first galaxy. And we also SEE lubba stating Bowser was only growing stronger after each defeat in Galaxy 2 and physically absorbing the Grand Stars via eating them and supplying him power instantly. Grand Star do NOT have a varies tier at all and there's no reason to assume they provided only a small finite portion of their infinite energy needed for Low 2-C feats. We've been over this.

Lumas shapeshift via utilising energy. They release this energy upon transforming. This energy is scalable.

If you would actually acknowledge these arguments instead of ignoring them that would be great.

 

[Starsprite53]

I'm not sure how many times I need to explain that in fiction a collective power can often be exponentially greater than the sum of its parts. It is not always just oh a million lumas each adding up their power equally into this attack

Cool, but these kinds of claims requires scans so The burden of proof is on you bud.
"Million lumas"
This is a no

Again, random civilians in Dragon Ball are not starbusters just because you can divide the 4-A attack by a few billion.

Yep let's forget the other strong characters in verse

 

[Ryukama]

Yep let's shift it to "They didn't use It's full power cuz i said so"

You need to prove they absorbed the entirety of the star's power. The burden of proof is on you for making that claim. If there is no statement that they absorbed the entirety of the energy and they perform no feats even close to what the reactor's black hole collapse did (which is arguable if this even scales to Power Stars as well but I digress), then you don't get to go "They absorbed the full power cause I said so." And again Bowser cannot touch a tiny portion of the energy for a brief second without badly hurting himself, let alone absorbing all of energy inside his body and holding it within himself indefinitely.

 

[Ryukama]

Cool, but these kinds of claims requires scans so The burden of proof is on you bud.

No the burden of proof is on you to find a Low 2-C feat (or even a statement I'm content with at this point) from an individual luma. You do not get to say that an individual luma is Low 2-C just because a collective amount performed that feat.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Yeah why are you guys still saying "millions" and "billions" when there's no proof that many Lumas were involved in the feat.

Like I said, if you pay attention to and slow down the cutscene, you'll see Lumas traveling from the Observatory's general area down into the black hole, and you can count how many are involved by the balls of light that appear from them releasing energy. There is not "millions" and you cannot prove there were. We can only go by what we see in the game here.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

Exactly. We have so many instances of this in other verses. Mario should be no different. Otherwise, because of Shoutmon X7F Superior Mode, every single Digimon might as well be 1-C due to that same logic.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Ryu. Dino. 1 Sexsexagintillionth of a Low 2-C feat is still a Low 2-C feat. I don't care about your "What about Dragon Ball and Digimon?" Because it doesn't matter, whataboutisms are not an argument.

 

[Starsprite53]

"A low 2-C hurt by a low 2-C so he isn't low 2-c" again
But the problem we see bowser absorbing the grand star itself, i would agree without if he can't, but he did, we really did discuss this in a previous thread this is pure derailment"

No the burden of proof is on you to find a Low 2-C feat (or even a statement I'm content with at this point) from an individual luma. You do not get to say that an individual luma is Low 2-C just because a collective amount performed that feat.

Yep, lemme find scan for a luma randomly bust a universe for no reason

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

And because of that logic, a mere human can bust a Solar System and Cutemon can destroy higher planes of existences? Fine.

 

[Starsprite53]

And there is even flaws in the genkidama argument (which lacks context btw) but the thread's main point isn't about lumas so

 

[Foxthefox1000]

If you want to go with shapeshifting as an argument, what is the anti-feat that goes against Lumas being Low 2-C via this feat? You guys argue using whataboutisms involving literal fodder and featless folk who are infinitely inferior providing their energies for another character to make into an attack, okay. Well, what goes against Lumas being Low 2-C? Don't say "well they can only become planets sometimes" because you wanted to say yourself how it's "just shapeshifting," so tell us.

 

[DaReaperMan]

WHATABOUTISMS. ARE. NOT. AN. ARGUMENT.

You two have been here long enough to know this, would you like me to make it a heading next time?

 

[Ryukama]

"But the Spirit Bomb analogy doesn't work because Z Fighters contributed not just civilians.

Alright then let's just say the Z Fighters contributed almost all of the Spirit Bomb, and that the civilians only contributed to 0.000000000000000000001% of the Spirit Bomb (which I don't know why it was even such a big deal to gather their energy if they contributed essentially nothing but I digress). Then let's assume there were a trillion civilians, so we divide this 0.000000000000000000001% by a trillion. This still leads to individual, untrained civilians being Small Town Level, which is absurd.

This is why you don't divide individually from a collective feat. Yes obviously infinity divided by a million is infinity. The point is that the collective does not divide at all. It's exponentially greater than the sum of its parts.

"But why should we assume that this collective feat is similar to Dragon Ball or Digimon?"

Because individual lumas have zero feats or even statements that are Universe Level or even within an order of magnitude as such. Because of this we cannot assume they scale to this collective feat. At most it is simply an unquantifiable feat.

 

[Ryukama]

Well, what goes against Lumas being Low 2-C?

Nope that's not how it works. The burden of proof is on you to prove individual lumas are Low 2-C. Not on anyone to prove they aren't. You have to find proper feats or statements.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

But Lumas eat things that can become Grand Stars. They use those as their sources of energy to transform.

Tell me how this doesn't support that.

 

[InfiniteDay]

It's been 5 pages, can you remind me what becomes a grand star and how it does so?

 

[Starsprite53]

Ryu is going to tell that akira will bother himself making unnecessary calculations just because goku needed some extra energy (ignoring the spirit bomb it self without extra energy is so strong by default) just for a future fictional debate.

 

[GyroNutz]

No the scaling was rejected in multiple previous threads and again, these specific types of lumas magically turning themselves into a galaxy is a special ability unique only to them. Mario and Bowser cannot turn themselves into a galaxy therefore they do not scale to their shapeshifting abilities. If someone's "7-A feat" is them shapeshifting into a mountain you don't scale that to someone who isn't capable of shapeshifting into a mountain.

Also as I've mentioned before these characters that are "powered up by Power Stars" did not absorb the entirety of their energy. Even Bowser cannot touch a tiny portion of the energy for a brief second without badly hurting himself, let alone absorbing all of energy inside his body and holding it within himself indefinitely.

As early as 2017, power stars had Luma scaling on their profile. Saying that this is shapeshifting is disingenuous. It shows a galaxy being created from an explosion with the text that a new galaxy is born. I assume that you don't have any instances of a Luma turning back from a galaxy, which is more proof that this isn't shapeshifting. It's a feat that blatantly requires 3-C amounts of energy.

Being burnt ("badly hurting himself is an exaggeration") by the core of his reactor isn't an anti-feat, since heat doesn't scale directly with durability per the site's standards. This was all discussed on the previous thread, and isn't relevant since Power Stars << Grand Stars anyway.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

Stop saying we should prove that they aren't universal individually when you can't do the opposite. We go with what we are given, not what we want or think. This isn't a mere two or typical rag tag bunch of Lumas in an JRPG fashion, this is a large group of Lumas where the sum equals to the whole does not apply here.

 

[Ryukama]

Ryu is going to tell that akira will bother himself making unnecessary calculations just because goku needed some extra energy (ignoring the spirit bomb it self without extra energy is so strong by default) just for a future fictional debate.

Just like how you guys unironically think Miyamoto considers the ending of Super Mario Galaxy to be a feat of literally infinite power, and that he knew "Oh well if you divide infinity by a million that's infinity meaning the lumas have infinite power"

My entire point is that the whole dividing thing you guys are doing is stupid and would be stupid if applied to any other verse. I don't actually think dividing the Spirit Bomb by individual civilians is valid. But you guys think it is in the case of lumas.

 

[DragonLord]

I assume that you don't have any instances of a Luma turning back from a galaxy

Well, in Good Egg Galaxy there is actually 1 Luma which comes back and must be refed to turn back into the Tower Planet, but I guess that’s not a galaxy

 

[Ryukama]

Stop saying we should prove that they aren't universal individually when you can't do the opposite. We go with what we are given, not what we want or think. This isn't a mere two or typical rag tag bunch of Lumas in an JRPG fashion, this is a large group of Lumas where the sum equals to the whole does not apply here.

Yeah I cannot believe we are actually at a point where "Give a feat or evidence that puts your character at the tier you claim they are" is seen as an unreasonable request. As if people can just assert whatever level they want someone to be without needing to prove it.

 

[Lord_JJJ]

From what I had read Foxthefox1000 makes perfect sense to me

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Many creators don't have that kind of intent. Literally irrelevant. Besides, Miyamoto said Mario is meant to fill any role.

As for what can become Grand Stars, Infinite, it's the "stardust" and/or "shooting stars" that fell down onto the Mushroom Kingdom, with the picture I posted with the scan implying they were referring to Star Bits, the very thing that empowers Lumas and provides them with their energy they need to transform.

 

[GyroNutz]

Well, in Good Egg Galaxy there is actually 1 Luma which comes back and must be refed to turn back into the Tower Planet, but I guess that’s not a galaxy

I mean, that's probably just game mechanics during repeat missions. Same sort of logic why bosses reappear after being canonically defeated.

 

[Starsprite53]

"It doesn't make sense for a certain verse So it shouldn't make sense for the other."
A fraction of low 2-C is still low 2-C, we don't care about other verses that have different treatings of dividing feats

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Pretty sure guides and all and even King Bob-Omb state that Power Stars pretty much can res a boss for a rematch.

Maybe that's what it did to the Luma? Idk. In any case it doesn't really matter.

 

[DragonLord]

I mean, that's probably just game mechanics during repeat missions. Same sort of logic why bosses reappear after being canonically defeated.

From what I recall, this happens with no other Galaxy, even Hungry Luma’s that make Planets for a mission, so this Hungry Luma coming back is unique

I think the hungry luma may come back in future missions if you go into the Yoshi egg planet but I’m not sure, it’s been a while since I played Mario Galaxy

 

[GyroNutz]

Hell, Star Bits, those things Lumas constantly feed on? The intro to Galaxy straight up says that Star Bits collected together will become "great Power Stars" while showing a picture that resembles a Grand Star.

This means Lumas constantly feed on things that can become Grand Stars, those Low 2-C artifacts.

I mean, isn't that just the same logic as "countless less powerful things become one very powerful thing when combined" that's used with the Low 2-C luma stuff?