Possibly downgrading Two of the strongest Tier 0 characters in the wiki.

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah, you're right.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I have 0 clue where Magi is, but DT liked Witch's comment were they said they couldn't evaluate a crt that needs context from the verse, and Ultima is hella busy so im not sure if he could respond. But ig i could wait to see Ultima or Magi's response

Yeah, I don't know anything about the verse, so judging what's canon is beyond me.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem. Thank you for the reply.

 

[Shaqzy]

On this topic, I'd like to say that the verse shouldn't be downgraded because of the type 4 multiverse. It's shown to be abstract (go deeper the physical laws) and its very consistent. The problem is, a type 4 is taken to be low 1A or 1A here. I disagree with that scaling. Via the Tiering System footnotes, it's made clear that simply being beyond all mathematics and logic does not scale anywhere, as one would have to show how far the math extends in the verse. The type 4 does this. It's not a baseless statement. It shows how far the math extends. It should hold all mathematics. Some even say it should hold all mathematics that's able to be denoted by words or human language. Therefore, it's not just "Oh it's all math". The type 4 proves the math. Therefore I think Manifold should be getting an UPGRADE and so should all other verses which hold consistent, abstract type 4 multiverses. This is as the type 4 multiverse would obviously hold all cardinals. With mahlos being the baseline for boundless. And even just the hyper mahlos being inaccessibly above that. It would be appreciated if some mods or important people here would take notice of this

 

[Jibz]

The problem is, a type 4 is taken to be low 1A or 1A here. I disagree with that scaling.

make a crt, like i've told you countless times before

It would be appreciated if some mods or important people here would take notice of this

If you made a crt, then perhaps they would

 

[Shaqzy]

make a crt, like i've told you countless times before

If you made a crt, then perhaps they would

Idk how to make a crt

 

[Jibz]

Idk how to make a crt

Go to Content revision thread (top thread on home) and create a thread with the premise as the title and the justification below.

 

[Jibz]

Bump

 

[kuramamyfav68]

How many keys are the downstreamers going to have? And what would happen if their low 2c/2c self were to die? And what about the goddess?

 

[Jibz]

How many keys are the downstreamers going to have? And what would happen if their low 2c/2c self were to die? And what about the goddess?

Downstreamers will have 1 key for the time being before i can figure out how high i can get them to scale (using modal realism maybe High 1-A), and the goddess will just scale to 2-C (for the time being) as i said in the crt

 

[kuramamyfav68]

Downstreamers will have 1 key for the time being before i can figure out how high i can get them to scale (using modal realism maybe High 1-A), and the goddess will just scale to 2-C (for the time being) as i said in the crt

Oh, my bad. Thanks.

 

[Arthex]

Tier 0s are endangered now days honestly....

 

[Arceus0x]

Tier 0s are endangered now days honestly....

being anywhere above 2-A is dangerous since you can collapse many tiers in seconds based on some random bs like this. I mean a single thing turns out to be non-canon and poof, tier 0 turns into tier 2-C. Probably gonna be the biggest downgrade of all time if it goes through

 

[QuasiYuri]

Tier 0s are endangered now days honestly....

It's mainly because people sucks at being reasonnable tho.

 

[T4SK3]

On this topic, I'd like to say that the verse shouldn't be downgraded because of the type 4 multiverse. It's shown to be abstract (go deeper the physical laws) and its very consistent. The problem is, a type 4 is taken to be low 1A or 1A here. I disagree with that scaling. Via the Tiering System footnotes, it's made clear that simply being beyond all mathematics and logic does not scale anywhere, as one would have to show how far the math extends in the verse. The type 4 does this. It's not a baseless statement. It shows how far the math extends. It should hold all mathematics. Some even say it should hold all mathematics that's able to be denoted by words or human language. Therefore, it's not just "Oh it's all math". The type 4 proves the math. Therefore I think Manifold should be getting an UPGRADE and so should all other verses which hold consistent, abstract type 4 multiverses. This is as the type 4 multiverse would obviously hold all cardinals. With mahlos being the baseline for boundless. And even just the hyper mahlos being inaccessibly above that. It would be appreciated if some mods or important people here would take notice of this

in this case I agree. its not like a blatant statement in some verses where they just say a character transcends creatiom, but the monifold is consistently being pointed out to the ultimate ensemble and is revolved around math all the time, and we are being pointed out to the fact that woodin cardinals exist in the manifold so thus the whole math stuff, which is pretty consistent imo, should be accepted.

 

[T4SK3]

Also one more saying from me.

My opinion on the manifold series and why this debunk might not be valid is cause manifold IS supposed to not continue with some of the statements, to contradict itself, we know that stephen baxter wrote manifold kinda wacky, we know that each manifold part isnt even completely "canon" to each other, i mean they are not connected in every aspect, every part pretty much, we get the idea of the story, that they might want to go towards the same goal in some way. I mean, each part pretty much starts with different points, so i dont think we can say manifold contradicts itself, since baxter literally wanted it to be like that, he didnt want to make a super-well formed lore, he just put his imagination on the paper

 

[Antvasima]

Also one more saying from me.

My opinion on the manifold series and why this debunk might not be valid is cause manifold IS supposed to not continue with some of the statements, to contradict itself, we know that stephen baxter wrote manifold kinda wacky, we know that each manifold part isnt even completely "canon" to each other, i mean they are not connected in every aspect, every part pretty much, we get the idea of the story, that they might want to go towards the same goal in some way. I mean, each part pretty much starts with different points, so i dont think we can say manifold contradicts itself, since baxter literally wanted it to be like that, he didnt want to make a super-well formed lore, he just put his imagination on the paper

This seems to make sense to me.

What do you think about all of this, @Ultima_Reality ?

 

[Arceus0x]

This seems to make sense to me.

What do you think about all of this, @Ultima_Reality ?

wasn't the whole point that some of the texts weren't at all canon making them unusable?

 

[Antvasima]

It depends on if Baxter considers them all part of the same greater narrative via alternative timelines or somesuch.

 

[Jibz]

My opinion on the manifold series and why this debunk might not be valid is cause manifold IS supposed to not continue with some of the statements, to contradict itself

What does this even mean? Manifold is meant to contradict itself?? How???

we know that stephen baxter wrote manifold kinda wacky

No it isnt

so i dont think we can say manifold contradicts itself, since baxter literally wanted it to be like that

You know this how? This is a blatant argument from Amazing Familiarity

, we know that each manifold part isnt even completely "canon" to each other, i mean they are not connected in every aspect, every part pretty much, we get the idea of the story, that they might want to go towards the same goal in some way. I mean, each part pretty much starts with different points

All parts are canon to eachother. There is nothing in Manifold: Time, Manifold: Origin and Manifold: Space that contradict eachother or are meant to be seen as loosely canon to eachother

he didnt want to make a super-well formed lore, he just put his imagination on the paper

This is extremely disrespectful to Baxter, his work is super detail oriented (in terms of Sci-Fi elements not character progression) which is blatantly obvious even if you haven't read the series. Also Baxter has made a super-well formed lore, just because tidbits are dropped and hinted at from different stories (which make them canon) doesn't mean its all over the place, it means the Author isn't just spoon feeding the reader.

It depends on if Baxter considers them all part of the same greater narrative via alternative timelines or somesuch.

The alternate timelines are shown via stuff that connects it to the story. Just saying "muh canon is weird!!!!" doesn't mean it's canon merely due to people wanting it to be

 

[Jibz]

in this case I agree. its not like a blatant statement in some verses where they just say a character transcends creatiom, but the monifold is consistently being pointed out to the ultimate ensemble and is revolved around math all the time

Actually in Manifold: Time Anna states its a TOE but in only that specific universe which would contradict the whole notion of it being a TOE as it doesnt encompass the cosmology, however there are statements of the verse having an underlying basis in mathematics, but the explicit statement isn't one that can be used for scaling purposes.

and we are being pointed out to the fact that woodin cardinals exist in the manifold so thus the whole math stuff, which is pretty consistent imo, should be accepted.

Ah the common "Hard Sci-Fi author uses math in story which means story is canon to other story which also has maths!!!" argument. Yeah no.

As for Shaqzy's argument i've already said why it wouldn't work already, the wiki doesnt consider a type 4 multiverse as tier 0 Wiki does accept it as L1-A - 1-A though so atleast Goku vs Downstreamers wont be in the near future

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we still need to wait for Ultima here.

 

[Jibz]

bump

 

[T4SK3]

What does this even mean? Manifold is meant to contradict itself?? How???

No it isnt

You know this how? This is a blatant argument from Amazing Familiarity

All parts are canon to eachother. There is nothing in Manifold: Time, Manifold: Origin and Manifold: Space that contradict eachother or are meant to be seen as loosely canon to eachother

This is extremely disrespectful to Baxter, his work is super detail oriented (in terms of Sci-Fi elements not character progression) which is blatantly obvious even if you haven't read the series. Also Baxter has made a super-well formed lore, just because tidbits are dropped and hinted at from different stories (which make them canon) doesn't mean its all over the place, it means the Author isn't just spoon feeding the reader.

The alternate timelines are shown via stuff that connects it to the story. Just saying "muh canon is weird!!!!" doesn't mean it's canon merely due to people wanting it to be

maybe i didnt form my argument well, anyways you shouldn't just take one part of my argument and answer on it since i didnt write it all in one for no reason

 

[Jibz]

maybe i didnt form my argument well, anyways you shouldn't just take one part of my argument and answer on it since i didnt write it all in one for no reason

You made literally no coherent arguments, your premise was fallacious and you had shown 0 evidence on your part. And your rebuttal is a vague "hey dont do that!".

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Well, we still need to wait for Ultima here.

I am not sure as to why I'm needed here. This seems like it requires someone to be knowledgeable on Manifold, since it's a debate on canonicity, which I am not. If those sources aren't valid, downgrade the verse to where it was before the upgrades.

 

[kuramamyfav68]

Agree with the downgrades. Someone call Ant here. But seriously, if no-one's going to argue against this... this should end soon.

 

[Antvasima]

I am not sure as to why I'm needed here. This seems like it requires someone to be knowledgeable on Manifold, since it's a debate on canonicity, which I am not. If those sources aren't valid, downgrade the verse to where it was before the upgrades.

Well, the problem is that Zachary/Angie and FanofRPGs seem to be the main experts, and they are both banned.

@Threemagi @Elizhaa @QuasiYuri @Bobsican @KingPin0422 @ElixirBlue @Qawsedf234

Do any of you know enough about this verse to help out with evaluating this?

 

[Bobsican]

I'm afraid not, however, I could contact Angie off-site, would that be fine?

 

[Vietthai96]

What about @Threemagi who upgrade the verse before to tier 0 in this thread

 

[Antvasima]

I'm afraid not, however, I could contact Angie off-site, would that be fine?

That would be fine, yes.

Can somebody ask FanofRPGs as well please?

 

[Antvasima]

What about @Threemagi who upgrade the verse before to tier 0 in this thread

I already called for them.

 

[Bobsican]

Angie would rather wait for ThreeMagi, so I think it'd be best to wait a bit and all, but that being said...

It's a bit weird. I suppose you could argue that it's possible Dante's universe isn't canon based on the vagueness of the canonicity, but there's nothing explicitly rejecting it's canonicity either.
I'm not sure what to do in a case of vague canonicity like this.

Angie also isn't sure on whether The Goddess of the Manifold would be 1-A+ afterwards or not, as apparently there's other stuff of vague canonicity on the pages too, but IMO that sounds like more negatives that don't make a right, so the verse could probably use further revisions if that's the case, so chances are the downgrades are fine to pass if nothing more is brought to the table, but again, it'd be best to wait for ThreeMagi to be sure.

 

[Jibz]

but again, it'd be best to wait for ThreeMagi to be sure.

And how long will that take, he practically agreed with me in my first thread, and apparently he agreed off site though im not sure about that

 

[Jibz]

Well, the problem is that Zachary/Angie and FanofRPGs seem to be the main experts, and they are both banned.

Isn't relying on banned people:

a) a horrible precedent to set
b) extremely unreasonable

Not to mention the fact the verse is already horribly scuffed to begin with (a weakness that's integral to the plot left out for Downstreamers, albeit not applicable in battle, but you get the drift and a child whose weapon literally ended the universe being below human lvl) stuff which i actively had to go out of my way to fix aren't really "main experts"

 

[Antvasima]

I don't think that we need to be rigidly inflexible if we need their help and nobody else who is sufficiently knowledgeable is available.

 

[Armorchompy]

Personally I definitely don't think that we should require the input of banned people for a CRT to pass through, especially considering the gravity of their bans.

 

[Bobsican]

Their input is helpful, but it also isn't a must either. Otherwise a ton of the site's infrastructure would go down as it'd be expected.

 

[Antvasima]

Personally I definitely don't think that we should require the input of banned people for a CRT to pass through, especially considering the gravity of their bans.

Well, not require, but it is always good to receive useful information.

 

[Bobsican]

And how long will that take, he practically agreed with me in my first thread, and apparently he agreed off site though im not sure about that

I don't know, but if you can cite the agreement it'd probably be good to go.