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Possible Upgrade for the Universal Abstracts (Marvel Comics)
- Thread starter Ultima_Reality
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Yeah, that would be a pretty big outlier. Like I said above, he's consistently 2-A and scales to 2-A beings.
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Bump
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Why is that?
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Bump. I'm just going to repost this from Kepekley's wall to see, as I honestly wanted to see what you guys think since it seems aside from Ant and maybe 1 other Low 1-C has been accepted, and this does have something to do with the Avatars.
My major question is, considering the full size of the Multiverse we know is Low 1-A now and seems mostly supported as opposed to previously being just the Deep Space... Considering the difference between those scaling to Deep Space and those scaling to the totality of creation, and how scaling to Deep Space wouldn't hurt the cosmic hierarchy at all since the difference between High 1-B & Low 1-A is so large that the idea of Avatars being at that level wouldn't be as contradictory as saying they are Low 1-A:
What is honestly stopping them [Celestials - 616 Avatars] from scaling to Deep Space / Subspace, but not the whole of Creation ? It wouldn't portray them inconsistent as lower dimensional beings can have higher-D power if consistent, we can still portray the Avatars / Celestials as being a lot weaker than the True Multi-Abstracts without contradicting the cosmic hierarchy , and we have feats of Subspace Level:
[Asheema and Tiamut when heavily weakened contributed to a feat comparing to a pan-dimensional storm which Heroes Reborn included subspace so dimensional in this circumstance would be Deep Space level , Franklin being feared by someone one with all of Subspace [Deep Space Level], Galactus holding his own against said entity , the whole Fallen Stars fiasco which is chalk full of feats at least Deep Space level for 616 Celestials to Avatar level to scale from (which I proved here to be not ignored whatsoever), Hyperstorm scaling to Psi-Lord / Franklin who scales to Subspace as Hyperspace/Subspace are stated to be the exact same thing multiple times , Dr.Strange fighting Maya whose one with the Illusion of Reality which again would only be Deep Space , In-Betweener becoming one with all dimensions, Heroes Reborn residual energy being called pan-dimensional [which the comic included Subspace] , Dormammu's previous outlier of encompassing all dimensions {which in context was higher-dimensional but he only knew about Deep Space at the time so it'd only scale to Deep Space} , etc] .
I won't bring this up again if someone does have a problem with it and provides explicit evidence on it not be legitimate . But I truly want to hear your thoughts on this issue as it was bugging me this entire thread and in the Low 1-A one.
My major question is, considering the full size of the Multiverse we know is Low 1-A now and seems mostly supported as opposed to previously being just the Deep Space... Considering the difference between those scaling to Deep Space and those scaling to the totality of creation, and how scaling to Deep Space wouldn't hurt the cosmic hierarchy at all since the difference between High 1-B & Low 1-A is so large that the idea of Avatars being at that level wouldn't be as contradictory as saying they are Low 1-A:
What is honestly stopping them [Celestials - 616 Avatars] from scaling to Deep Space / Subspace, but not the whole of Creation ? It wouldn't portray them inconsistent as lower dimensional beings can have higher-D power if consistent, we can still portray the Avatars / Celestials as being a lot weaker than the True Multi-Abstracts without contradicting the cosmic hierarchy , and we have feats of Subspace Level:
[Asheema and Tiamut when heavily weakened contributed to a feat comparing to a pan-dimensional storm which Heroes Reborn included subspace so dimensional in this circumstance would be Deep Space level , Franklin being feared by someone one with all of Subspace [Deep Space Level], Galactus holding his own against said entity , the whole Fallen Stars fiasco which is chalk full of feats at least Deep Space level for 616 Celestials to Avatar level to scale from (which I proved here to be not ignored whatsoever), Hyperstorm scaling to Psi-Lord / Franklin who scales to Subspace as Hyperspace/Subspace are stated to be the exact same thing multiple times , Dr.Strange fighting Maya whose one with the Illusion of Reality which again would only be Deep Space , In-Betweener becoming one with all dimensions, Heroes Reborn residual energy being called pan-dimensional [which the comic included Subspace] , Dormammu's previous outlier of encompassing all dimensions {which in context was higher-dimensional but he only knew about Deep Space at the time so it'd only scale to Deep Space} , etc] .
I won't bring this up again if someone does have a problem with it and provides explicit evidence on it not be legitimate . But I truly want to hear your thoughts on this issue as it was bugging me this entire thread and in the Low 1-A one.
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Cyttorak would get an upgrade too since juggernaut was able to fight nightmare amped by eternity using cyttoraks spells and a small percent of his power and what about that necro version of loki who scales to old king thor?
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And two pheonix 5 members ( magik and colosseus) were no match for cytorak, as they powered up preparing to fight he just bfr them and treated them as if they are bugs.
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I would appreciate if somebody asks the following members to comment here:
Zensum, C2 of Omego, Crimson Azoth, Eficiente, Qawsedf234, PrinceOfTheMorning, SuperAPM, Zark2099, ClassicNESfa.
Zensum, C2 of Omego, Crimson Azoth, Eficiente, Qawsedf234, PrinceOfTheMorning, SuperAPM, Zark2099, ClassicNESfa.
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Bump. Can someone respond to my last post above if they don't mind ? Even if it is just with a "it's unreliable" … I honestly don't care.
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I don't have the energy anymore to read any of your usually wild speculation connected to extreme upgrade attempts when it comes to Marvel comicbooks. Sorry. I have tried to endure for over 3 years, but enough is enough.
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Does the existence of the Overspace (a plane above and apart from the normal realities where the universal abstracts entities reside) contribute something to this discussion? Because even the universal abstracts live in a higher plane than the normal one.
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The Overspace is described in 1-A terms in Defenders, and is likely just an aspect of the Outside.
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Even Hank Pym and the Absorbing Man could access it, and it is strictly one or two dimensional levels above the regular universe as far as I understood. The term appeared in two Dan Slott stories, and not referred to anywhere else that I know of. The J.M. DeMatteis Defenders story happened several years before the term was first introduced.
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Overspace
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Overspace
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So... since most people here seem to be in agreement, can this be applied?
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Well, 2-A would stay, it would just only apply to Galactus, the Cosmic Cubes, The Celestials and Franklin Richards.
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But don't they scale to Hyperspace due to their implications of where they came from inc omparison to the Multiverse ?
@Tracer I agree with it being applied, but is there any specific reason we need to treat them as literally more than infinitely weaker than the Abstracts besides trying to make it seem more plausible to upgrade one than the other ?
@Tracer I agree with it being applied, but is there any specific reason we need to treat them as literally more than infinitely weaker than the Abstracts besides trying to make it seem more plausible to upgrade one than the other ?
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Because there's really no reason for Galactus, the Cubes, Franklin and the Celestials to scale? The CC was once explicitly stated to only have the power of infinite universes, and it's probably the strongest out of the four.
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I recall a decent number of tier 1 things while reading Strange tales, albeit it was quite some time ago, but I think somewhere around Low 1-C is consistent for universal abstracts and those who scale. I might actually read through some of those books again and see if there are some other tier 1 things to add for further elaboration if I can find some stuff.
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@Squeedword
If you do please let us know.
@Tracer
Doesn't really change anything really. Universal / Avatar Eternity is literally described as Low 2-C most of the time physically or being only a Universe in power and what he contains yet has feats of 2-A or higher. Embodying / having the powers of "BLANK" doesn't always automatically set a limit to the power you have in a verse , otherwise 3-D Humanity in most fictions would only stay 3-D .
They have multiple feats of at least affecting Universal Abstracts and some even being compared to them loosely in power. I would bring some scans, but since I'm in the extreme minority I should wait another time to prove it they are at least relative. Just know there is evidence portraying such.
I would've liked some more explicit criticism for the whole "scaling the lower 2-As at their highest to Deep Space rather than the whole of Creation for using their highest feats ranging from the several Pan-Dimensional statements, scaling to Subspace in several others, scaling from Strange Tales which is stated] ' , which would still leave room for them being so much higher than the Avatars and keep the cosmology still with the same goal, but I realize that isn't going to happen.
If you do please let us know.
@Tracer
Doesn't really change anything really. Universal / Avatar Eternity is literally described as Low 2-C most of the time physically or being only a Universe in power and what he contains yet has feats of 2-A or higher. Embodying / having the powers of "BLANK" doesn't always automatically set a limit to the power you have in a verse , otherwise 3-D Humanity in most fictions would only stay 3-D .
They have multiple feats of at least affecting Universal Abstracts and some even being compared to them loosely in power. I would bring some scans, but since I'm in the extreme minority I should wait another time to prove it they are at least relative. Just know there is evidence portraying such.
I would've liked some more explicit criticism for the whole "scaling the lower 2-As at their highest to Deep Space rather than the whole of Creation for using their highest feats ranging from the several Pan-Dimensional statements, scaling to Subspace in several others, scaling from Strange Tales which is stated] ' , which would still leave room for them being so much higher than the Avatars and keep the cosmology still with the same goal, but I realize that isn't going to happen.
- 167,692
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I would appreciate if somebody asks the following members to comment here:
Sera EX, Zensum, C2 of Omego, Eficiente, Qawsedf234, PrinceOfTheMorning, SuperAPM, Zark2099, ClassicNESfa.
Sera EX, Zensum, C2 of Omego, Eficiente, Qawsedf234, PrinceOfTheMorning, SuperAPM, Zark2099, ClassicNESfa.
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Ultima created this thread though
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I'll try and find some stuff that may or may not prove tier 1 abstracts, it'll probably take some time though, how long exactly I'm not really sure, because I would like to get as much stuff as possible. So it might take some time, maybe after this revision is done, but I assume that's fine with everyone even if that's the case? Even if this goes through before I may get some other things (or someone else does), some further elaboration could never hurt.
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I'm torn on this one. I think there are good arguments for both 2-A and 1-C, but I don't mean that in the usual sense. I mean it in the sense that I'm almost positive the characters in question have been written as both. The OP's points are sound, as are the supplimental arguments provided throughout the replies. But consider beings like Galactus, who are very clearly not 1-C even at their strongest. He is consistently depicted as superior to Classic Doctor Strange, who is inferior (but almost certainly not infinitely inferior) to Dormammu, who we know can at least damage if not outright threaten Eternity. We also know that Galactus at his most powerful is often treated as a peer to Eternity and Death. He acts as a balance between them.
It seems clear to me that the Abstracts have been written as merely multiversal sometimes and infinitely beyond multiversal at other times. I do think Ant is probably correct in suggesting that 2-A is more consistent, but 1-C has happened often enough that it feels wrong to ignore it. I'd be most comfortable with something like At Least 2-A, Possibly 1-C. Or At Least 2-A, Likely 1-C. When we get down to the specifics, Marvel seems somewhat internally divided in regards to what exactly the Abstracts are, surface level guidebook definitions aside.
It seems clear to me that the Abstracts have been written as merely multiversal sometimes and infinitely beyond multiversal at other times. I do think Ant is probably correct in suggesting that 2-A is more consistent, but 1-C has happened often enough that it feels wrong to ignore it. I'd be most comfortable with something like At Least 2-A, Possibly 1-C. Or At Least 2-A, Likely 1-C. When we get down to the specifics, Marvel seems somewhat internally divided in regards to what exactly the Abstracts are, surface level guidebook definitions aside.
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At Least 2-A, Likely/Possibly 1-C seems like a fair compromise, I agree with ClassicNESfan's proposal.
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ClassicNESfan's proposal seems good to me.
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That would be a good compromise if we can't just get Low 1-C. I can agree with that.
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For the record, if we rank The Abstracts as At Least 2-A, Possibly 1-C, I suggest we deal with The Infinity Gauntlet by tiering it as At Least 2-A, Possibly 1-C, Likely Far Higher, given how it is consistently portrayed as superior to The Abstracts.
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I had assumed that "Likely Far Higher" didn't necessarily mean a higher tier.
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I was merely looking for a way to indicate that the adjusted tier is conservative. The Infinity Gauntlet's current tiering accomplishes this by putting the words "At Least" in front of "2-A". I was trying to propose a method for carrying that general sentiment to the new tiering.
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