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Possible Upgrade for the Universal Abstracts (Marvel Comics)

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Ultima_Reality

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So, to give background context as to how the feat happened, we need to look at Doctor Strange Vol. 2, which came out in 1974, or most specifically it's 4th issue.

After being trapped in the Dimension of Unreality by the Silver Dagger and meeting several parallel versions of characters from the normal universe, Doctor Strange rides a steed and goes deeper into the plane of existence in order to return to his world, and eventually encounters Death itself, before starting to battle it.

After passing through all of its perils and seeing that there is no way to triumph, Strange accepts that death as a concept of all but inevitable, and allows its influence to flow through him. This results in him not only (obviously) dying, but also uniting with Eternity himself, as the entity's form starts to envelop his body. The Ancient One's spiritual form then appears and explains that Strange has fulfilled one of the many trials he must undergo as Sorcerer Supreme, by expunging from himself the fear of death, and as a consequence evolving past aging. Following this, Strange returns and is reborn into the world of the living, but not before stating that he feels "different―One with All".

But, when he returns to the world of the living proper, he finds out that reality is twisting and acting in all sorts of chaotic ways from his perspective, and the comic's narration explains that this is the result of his body not being accustomed to the limitations of the physical world, since, as previously stated, he had fused with Eternity and become one with all things. The narration also states that he was existing and perceiving reality in many more dimensions than the usual four (Length, Width, Height and Time)

I believe you all can tell where I am going for at this point: These scans pretty clearly imply that Eternity (and by extension the other Abstracts) exists in far more dimensions than the normal four that are perceived by mortal beings. Given this, I believe he can be rated higher than 2-A, specifically at Low 1-C or so, given the use of the word "many" to indicate the amount of additional dimensions Strange was existing in while fused with him, which implies more than 5.

Considering that Eternity is the Embodiment of the Universe itself, I also doubt that the Dimensions which Strange was experiencing while united with his being were necessarily insignificant or vaguely-sized ones that have no bearing over tiering.

Admitedly, I am not sure if this is an Outlier or not, and may very well be a feat from an outdated cosmology, but given we use feats from this time in our profiles, I'd say it is definitely worth to acknowledge.
 
I think this makes sense. It's not a crazy ass upgrade that is very easily contradicted (aka High 1-B) and i think there are even some supporting feats to this?

Either way i agree.
 
I also agree. Dormammu and I believe Nightmare also have supporting feats to this.
 
It's good and all but did we kinda just

Forget this is a comic book with the potential for vast inconsistencies between authors

Don't you need more than one run to do something like this?
 
DMUA said:
It's good and all but did we kinda just
Forget this is a comic book with the potential for vast inconsistencies between authors

Don't you need more than one run to do something like this?
One other run specifically denotes that Nightmare's home-dimension is made out of more than 6.8151 spatial dimensions
 
So that's like two of what, hundreds upon hundreds of comic runs over the years?

We've always needed a substantial amount of stuff for this.
 
Considering we have consistently 2-A beings that are way way beneath the Abstracts, why shouldn't we care?

We also hear from one such being that the Celestials are multiple degrees of infinity above them.
 
Isn't there also another run that states that Dormammus Dark Dimension contains more than 4 spatial dimensions or something?
 
Ehhh

That would make 3 I guess but still, usually we go for like, 5 or 6 when it comes to this stuff

Can't guarantee that you have this and it isn't tossed out the window of plenty of other authors
 
Dust Collector said:
Isn't there also another run that states that Dormammus Dark Dimension contains more than 4 spatial dimensions or something?
Same one that states that Nightmare's does, yes. There are other corroborating evidence in places.
 
CrimsonStarFallen said:
Considering even the damn Cosmic Cube, which is pathetic when compared to any Abstract, has consistent 2-A feats, and how there's feats like Dormammu's realm, Nightmare's realm and the other things Matt brought up, plus the fact that it isn't really contradicted per say and it makes a lotta sense
Agreed! This makes sense.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Dust Collector said:
Isn't there also another run that states that Dormammus Dark Dimension contains more than 4 spatial dimensions or something?
Same one that states that Nightmare's does, yes. There are other corroborating evidence in places.
Is this what you're referring to?
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
We also hear from one such being that the Celestials are multiple degrees of infinity above them.
I think that I have explained to you in the past that the cosmic cubes have been retconned into being shown as individually stronger than an entire Celestial host combined in recent years, and that only 5 of them were able to together overpower universal Eternity in the early 90s.
 
Anyway, I suppose that Ultima makes a good point about this storyline displaying universal Eternity as 5-dimensional or higher, but back in the 1970s higher dimensions had not been mentioned as higher infinities yet. That was implied in a single Doctor Strange story first in the early 1990s, and that in turn has not been referred to ever since by other writers as I am aware.
 
SHuman-Gorath also has Low 1-C descriptions.

He is stated to be an unending void beyond understanding that had always existed & was devoid of both time and space. The void embodied by him is also stated in very direct terms to be a higher-dimensional plane with many directions and angles beyond the perception of mortals (a pretty blatant reference to the Cthulhu Mythos, considering his official classification as a "Many-Angled/Great Old One")

It is also stated that he manifests through avatars when it comes to beings of the lower planes, and that they only affect its three-dimensional form.
 
Okay. I do not think that any of them have been stated as encompassing higher infinities though, just higher dimensions.
 
Antvasima said:
Okay. I do not think that any of them have been stated as encompassing higher infinities though, just higher dimensions.
Even if that were the case, the fact that he is described as an eternal, unending void beyond human comprehension that existed even before time and space would be enough for him to be Low 1-C in the new system.

The Many-Angled Ones/Great Old Ones in Marvel have plenty of impressive Tier 1 descriptions we have ignored, in fact.
 
Okay. I suppose that SHuman may be qualified for an upgrade then. What other tier 1 descriptions do they have?

I am uncertain about upgrading the universal abstracts based on a Doctor Strange story in the 1970s though, as this was long before the early 1990s mention of higher dimensions as higher infinities.
 
We might also end up with a scaling mess to various other entities, such as the cosmic cubes.
 
In the Moon Knight storyline from 2016, it is revealed that the Great Old Ones in general are embodiments of the nothingness before creation, and also that every evil god/deity worshipped by mankind is a manifestation of them, and that such acts of worship substantially strengthen them.

Scans in questio.

This sounds pretty impressive to me.
 
Antvasima said:
We might also end up with a scaling mess to various other entities, such as the cosmic cubes.
For what it's worth, in one what-if scenario, a singular Cosmic Cube was shown destroying the entire omniverse, though that'd be a nonsensical outlier.
 
Well, the problem is that Marvel is a complete mess continuity-wise, with constant incoherent contradictions from writer to writer. If SHuman-Gorath was not directly mentioned in this context, I doubt that we can establish all earthly deities that have ever inspired bloodshed and tyranny as avatars of him and other similar beings.

Didn't the story with a cosmic cube being claimed to supposedly be an omniversal threat happen in a crossover with Valiant Comics? We obviously cannot scale from that.
 
Antvasima said:
We might also end up with a scaling mess to various other entities, such as the cosmic cubes.
I took the liberty of making a list of everyone this would scale to (at least with their current justifications) and:

Death (Marvel Comics) (1st Key) - Low 1-C

Edifice Rex - Low 1-C

Eternity (1st Key) - Low 1-C

The Infinites - At least Low 1-C

Infinity (Marvel Comics) (1st Key) - Low 1-C

Lord Chaos (1st Key) - Low 1-C

Master Order (1st Key) - Low 1-C

Phoenix Force (1st Key) - At least Low 1-C

Adam Warlock (2nd Key) - At least Low 1-C

Genis-Vell (2nd Key) - Low 1-C

Namor (Marvel Comics) (2nd Key) - At least 4-B, possibly Low 1-C

Scarlet Witch (1st Key) - 4-B, Low 1-C with preparation

Scarlet Witch (2nd Key) - Low 1-C

Agamotto - At least 2-A, likely Low 1-C (He scales to Galactus, who definitely shouldn't scale, hence the "At least 2-A," but he should be stronger than Strange at his peak, hence the "likely Low 1-C")

Ancient One (Marvel Comics) - 4-B. At least 3-A, up to Low 1-C with Artifacts and Spells

Doctor Strange (Classic) - 4-B. At least 3-A, up to Low 1-C with Artifacts and Spells

Dormammu (Classic) (1st Key) - Low 1-C (His realm is supporting evidence for this and he has feats of destroying/manipulating said realm)

Dweller In Darkness - Low 1-C

Nightmare (Marvel Comics) - Low 1-C (Would scale for the same reasoning as Dormmamu)

SHuman-Gorath - Low 1-C

Zom (1st Key) - Low 1-C

Thanos (Marvel Comics) (3rd Key) - At least Low 1-C

Marquis of Death - Low 1-C

Old King Thor (3rd Key) - Low 1-C

Colossus (Marvel Comics) (2nd Key) - At least 4-B, possibly Low 1-C

Cyclops (2nd Key) - At least 4-B, possibly Low 1-C

Cyclops (3rd Key) - Low 1-C

Cyclops (4th Key) - Low 1-C

Emma Frost (3rd Key) - At least 4-B, possibly Low 1-C

Emma Frost (4th Key) - Low 1-C

Hope Summers (2nd Key) - Low 1-C

Hope Summers (3rd Key) - Low 1-C

Magik (Marvel Comics) (2nd Key) - At least 4-B, possibly Low 1-C

Jean Grey (2nd Key) - Low 1-C

Jean Grey (3rd Key) - At least Low 1-C

The Infinity Gauntlet - At least Low 1-C

The Cosmic Cubes shouldn't scale, because they have consistent 2-A statements and are treated as weaker than the abstracts. Galactus is beneath the Cosmic Cubes, as Doom with Galactus' power was defeated by a Cosmic Cube and the Celestials scale to Galactus, plus a Celestial host was imprisoned by a Cube. Franklin Richards scales to Galactus and the Celestials, so he wouldn't scale either.
 
I don agree with your interpretation of their view on Nirvana, considering J.M DeMatteis's stories are harmless and he uses a similar cosmology, but that's derailing the thread.
 
Well, DeMatteis is a type of Hindu who believes in the Brahman as far as I am aware, but you are correct that I am derailing.
 
I edited away the derailment from my post.
 
According to Oblivion, Well-Fed Galactus and the Other (who would scale to some beings of this level)'s conflict was large enough in scale to make the Chaos War (a Low 1-A event) be just the tip of the iceberg, in comparison.

This is the mother of all outliers but I found it worth noting, since I'm almost done with my Low 1-A thread.
 
Interesting. I mean no disrespect, but I really, really don't believe it to be that big of an outlier … Considering some feats and things... But considering my track record it'd be best for me to shut up here.
 
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