Possible Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation upgrade - Maou Gakuin

[Dereck03]

Hey ant, currently there is a dispute about what is right and what is wrong, if someone summarisr something up the other side will come out and contradict everything at once, so it is better to keep arguing since no exact conclusion has been reached.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, but perhaps somebody can summarise the arguments to make things easier for our staff to evaluate.

 

[Bernkastelll]

I'm gonna kindly ask you to stop straw manning the argument.

You are constantly ignoring the fact that the statement only says the Heavenly Father God is destroyed, not his order.
It does say the HFG is destroyed, but as I've said multiple times now, if the god who maintains his order is destroyed, his order would only be disrupted, NOT DESTROYED.

Perhaps he is confused, it is pretty weird to someone who doesnt know the verse

 

[Dereck03]

Confused and sometimes hate... Also it's comprehensive... It's kinda weird how concepts works in verse if you don't know a single thing about it

 

[InfiniteDay]

Cut the snark yall.

 

[imZer0Null]

Here's a somewhat summary for the arguments so far:

Here's the original reasons from the OP:

Reasons why I think this possibly qualifies as a type 1 concept:

1. Type 2 concepts (normal order) are dependant on the Order of Order, and would be unable to exist in the reality they govern without the Order of Order.
2. I'm uncertain if altering the Order of Order would change all other order in the world (though it's possible), but I'm certain that destroying the Order of Order would destroy all other order in the world (this does not happen when destroying any other order in the world).
3. The Order of Order would exist prior to and after the existence of all other order in the world.

Other arguments:

Reality is shaped and governed by other order, and without other order, reality is destroyed. The Order of Order creates and therefore predates that order.

Less assumptions please. Predates doesn't means exempt from.

The argument is that the Order of Order is not necessarily exempt from other order just because it creates and predates other order.
This is true, however, other order has been disrupted (altered) multiple times, yet it did not affect the Order of Order.

That would not be the logical conclusion, the logical conclusion is that the order relies on the order of order to exist, and this same order is the universe itself, which means that the order of order is a type 2 concept, just above baseline. You needs scans to prove that it transcends reality.

This somewhat describes the Chief God's order, since the Chief God's order could be considered the world itself.
Therefore, it's more of an assumption to assume the above describes the Order of Order when nothing suggests it's similar to the Chief God's order, than it is to assume the Order of Order predates and is exempt from other order.

If the Heavenly Father God is destroyed, the order of the world will be disturbed and eventually destroyed.

my scans says destroyed not disrupted tho, it says if HFG is destroyed the order will be disrupted eventually destroyed, that alone means it is not a type 1 concept.

This argument says that the Order of Order cannot be type 1 because if the HFG is destroyed, the order of the world will be disrupted and eventually destroyed.
This argument has a major flaw tho:

Gods only maintain order, therefore a God's death =/= destruction of their order, but a God's death = order not being maintained, which would disrupt the order (remove the order from the natural system of the world).

If the HFG is destroyed, he can no longer maintain his order, therefore his order will be disrupted. Nowhere does it say his order will be destroyed when he is destroyed, because that is incorrect.
So if the Order of Order is disrupted (altered), NOT DESTROYED, all other order in the world is immediately disrupted (altered) and eventually destroyed.

My knowledge regarding the verse is limited but the only thing that makes me doubt about it being type 1 is, that a direct change from order of order may/may not change the normal orders as well.

The argument is that when the Order of Order is altered, it may/may not alter other orders as well, which possibly disqualifies it as being a type 1 concept.

Firstly, characters in the novel do not usually alter order because altering order alters the world:

"All things without exception must eventually lead to destruction, however, because the Demon King stole the Order of Destruction, the world has been limited. Those that should have died did not die, those that should have brought about ruin did not and thus the natural law was disrupted. Other gods stepped in to compensate for it but the order was not completely restored." ~ WN Chapter 120

<Venuzdonoa> is a weapon created by the Order of Destruction. The order was not completely erased, but rather disrupted and turned into a weapon. After removing the order from the natural system of the world, the concept of destruction and all laws related to it across the entire world was affected.

As seen above, when the Order of Destruction was disrupted (altered), anything related to destruction across the world was altered. However, it did not affect other order when it was disrupted.

As explained previously tho, when the Order of Order is disrupted (altered), all other order is immediately disrupted and eventually destroyed.

 

[TMC_667]

If the HFG is destroyed, he can no longer maintain his order, therefore his order will be disrupted. Nowhere does it say his order will be destroyed when he is destroyed, because that is incorrect.
So if the Order of Order is disrupted (altered), NOT DESTROYED, all other order in the world is immediately disrupted (altered) and eventually destroyed.

So Anos wouldn't even get Type 1 CM anyway because he just affected the god who maintains a Type 1 (maybe) concept instead of directly affecting the concept. I don't see the point of the CRT then. Would HFG still be considered Type 1? So a Type 1 being maintains a Type 1 concept that rules over Type 2 beings that maintain Type 2 concepts?

 

[Dereck03]

So Anos wouldn't even get Type 1 CM anyway because he just affected the god who maintains a Type 1 (maybe) concept instead of directly affecting the concept. I don't see the point of the CRT then

Anos can disrupt the order of order and manipulate the order of order as well, just as he did with the order of destruction. Even taking into account that Nousgalia himself said that he sees himself inferior to the Demon King in a general way and some of his divine laws of his order of order have no effect on him

 

[Regidian]

Anos can disrupt the order and manipulate the order as well, just as he did with the order of destruction

Order are cm2 no? With order of order being the one possibly cm1?

 

[Dereck03]

Order are cm2 no? With order of order being the one possibly cm1?

Yep, Anos will get Cm1 only if the order of order qualifies for type 1

 

[imZer0Null]

So Anos wouldn't even get Type 1 CM anyway because he just affected the god who maintains a Type 1 (maybe) concept instead of directly affecting the concept. I don't see the point of the CRT then. Would HFG still be considered Type 1? So a Type 1 being maintains a Type 1 concept that rules over Type 2 beings that maintain Type 2 concepts?

Anos via his Chaotic Destruction Eyes and Venuzdonoa would definitely be able to manipulate and destroy the HFG's order.
He even created a magic to usurp the HFG's order, so saying his eyes and Venuzdonoa cannot destroy the HFG's order is nonsensical.

 

[InfiniteCosmology]

Anos via his Chaotic Destruction Eyes and Venuzdonoa would definitely be able to manipulate and destroy the HFG's order.
He even created a magic to usurp the HFG's order, so saying his eyes and Venuzdonoa cannot destroy the HFG's order is nonsensical.

Yes, that was in chapter 186, that Elmide used to usurp Nousgalia's order. Also, Venuzdonoa destroyed Nousgalia and can destroy his order too. Anos's Purple Eyes are enough to destroy or erase the order of Nousgalia.(as they can negate god's orders).

 

[Ness21]

Let's get back to the main topic..

So how?... the null explanation above is quite clear, even very clear for HGF's Conceptual Type 1.

 

[Dereck03]

Yes, but perhaps somebody can summarise the arguments to make things easier for our staff to evaluate.

Sorry for tagging you, but the summary has been done for quite some time.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I'm gonna kindly ask you to stop straw manning the argument.

You are constantly ignoring the fact that the statement only says the Heavenly Father God is destroyed, not his order.
It says the HFG is destroyed, but as I've said multiple times now, if the god who maintains his order is destroyed, his order would only be disrupted, NOT DESTROYED.

i was not doing so
The HFG order well let me quote what i can find

God is not eternal either.
they disappear in order and are reborn

and the god who produces them is the HF

The HF order is that he gives birth to the other gods after they die and their order is disrupted but he gives birth to them so their order can be re maintained?
if i am wrong correct me please
first answer this question



This like i said will be enough for baseline type 1 not that above so this can be the verification not cause of the HFG, and it will be type 1 with Venuzdonoa, since it affected all concept and laws across the entire world thats a solid baseline type 1

<Venuzdonoa> is a weapon created by the Order of Destruction. The order was not completely erased, but rather disrupted and turned into a weapon. After removing the order from the natural system of the world, the concept of destruction and all laws related to it across the entire world was affected.

oh yeah and the summary is extremely biased, you drop a summary not make arguments in a summary

 

[Dereck03]

Venuzdonoa and Eyes of Chaotic Destruction would be type 1.... And how baseline? if HFG from layer 1 (Nousgalia) is baseline type 1, the HFG from layer 99 what type 1 would be?

 

[PrinceofPein]

rephrase yourself, what makes them not baseline? cause they affect concepts on layer 99? Nah concepts dont work like that

 

[Dereck03]

LooooooL, then why are there many concepts that are accepted by all staff as Above baseline???? Not only type 2, also type 1, just so you know Anos' Cm was already well above baseline due to the huge difference of realities and power of concepts in the layers, and it was accepted by the staff. But yeah, concepts don't work like that

 

[imZer0Null]

@Pain_to12
Sorry, but I'm going to ignore any more repeated arguments regarding the HFG's order.
You repeatedly completely ignore my actual arguments, and instead focus on a statement which you misinterpreted and then twisted to support your argument.

I will however answer any new arguments you bring up.

The HF order is that he gives birth to the other gods after they die and their order is disrupted but he gives birth to them so their order can be re maintained?

The HFG creates both gods and order.
There's no need to create a god who doesn't maintain a certain order, and creating an order without a god to maintain it is useless.
He does not create new gods to maintain disrupted order. This is evident by the fact that he did not create a new god to maintain the disrupted order of destruction, but instead created new gods and order to "compensate" for the disrupted order of destruction.

oh yeah and the summary is extremely biased, you drop a summary not make arguments in a summary

Yes. I specifically called it a "somewhat summary" because I had to attempt to properly counter some of the arguments due to the decent amount of somewhat incorrect and confusing information that was provided as apparent counters earlier.

 

[Teezar]

Please do not debate this topic if you're not actually knowledgeable about this topic, **because presenting incorrect information in the debate can cause unnecessary confusion.

I agree with this.

 

[PrinceofPein]

LooooooL, then why are there many concepts that are accepted by all staff as Above baseline???? Not only type 2, also type 1, just so you know Anos' Cm was already well above baseline due to the huge difference of realities and power of concepts in the layers, and it was accepted by the staff. But yeah, concepts don't work like that

i am talking about your reason for saying it is above baseline type 1, i never said concepts cant be above type 1 please dont put words inmy mouth.
what will make the concept type 1 in the first place is the fact that it will affect all the layers of reality in the verse when affected. but you want to put it 99 times above type 1 cause there are 99 layers in the verse? lmao it doesn't work like that.
to make it clearer to you, this is the definition of baseline type 1 CM

Such concepts are completely independent from the reality they govern. These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality "participates" in these concepts.

@Pain_to12
Sorry, but I'm going to ignore any more repeated arguments regarding the HFG's order.
You repeatedly completely ignore my actual arguments, and instead focus on a statement which you misinterpreted and then twisted to support your argument.

you have no actual arguments tho that makes the HFG type 1 all you have dropped are not strong enough and the scans you provided only gives venuzdonaa/chaotic eyes type 1 CM, through affecting all concept of destruction in the reality not through HFG

I will however answer any new arguments you bring up.


The HFG creates both gods and order.
There's no need to create a god who doesn't maintain a certain order, and creating an order without a god to maintain it is useless.
He does not create new gods to maintain disrupted order. This is evident by the fact that he did not create a new god to maintain the disrupted order of destruction, but instead created new gods and order to "compensate" for the disrupted order.

okay good, another questions if you dont mind
1. the way the HFG order keeps all the other orders maintained is by creating new gods to replace the old ones right?
2. so if the HFG order is destroyed there will be no more order to replace the new order?
3. And anos plans to or swallowed the HFG order and maintained it after killing

 

[InfiniteCosmology]

rephrase yourself, what makes them not baseline? cause they affect concepts on layer 99? Nah concepts dont work like that

Again cm type is not affected by tiers and baselines. Yes, the reality is affected only. Here, the reality is Militia World. PLS DON'T CONSIDER SILVER SEA CASE HERE, AS ITS DIFFERENT, WE ARE ONLY TALKING ABOUT MILITIA UNIVERSE.
Even if this is not accepted, we have Chief Gods that literally shape everything in a Silver Bubble and are not affected by the destruction of the bubble.
ALSO EXPLAIN HOW CM1 WORKS AND GIVE AN ANALOGY WITH RESPECT TO NOUSGALIA

 

[Dereck03]

am talking about your reason for saying it is above baseline type 1, i never said concepts cant be above type 1 please dont put words inmy mouth.
what will make the concept type 1 in the first place is the fact that it will affect all the layers of reality in the verse when affected. but you want to put it 99 times above type 1 cause there are 99 layers in the verse? lmao it doesn't work like that.
to make it clearer to you, this is the definition of baseline type 1 CM

There are multiple realities in Maou Gakuin, each one is a higher level of reality and each HFG governs over a reality, the reason why if a concept in layer 1 is disturbed and does not affect layer 2 is because of the immense difference in reality that exists between layers.

you have no actual arguments tho that makes the HFG type 1 all you have dropped are not strong enough and the scans you provided only gives venuzdonaa/chaotic eyes type 1 CM, through affecting all concept of destruction in the reality not through HFG

Lol, you keep ignoring all said.... i don't have to argue this

 

[PrinceofPein]

Again cm type is not affected by tiers and baselines. Yes, the reality is affected only. Here, the reality is Militia World. PLS DON'T CONSIDER SILVER SEA CASE HERE, AS ITS DIFFERENT, WE ARE ONLY TALKING ABOUT MILITIA UNIVERSE.
Even if this is not accepted, we have Chief Gods that literally shape everything in a Silver Bubble and are not affected by the destruction of the bubble.

i am just quoting the guy that said he is above baaseline cause the layers are 99, so tag the right person. i dont know much about the verse but i know much about CM

 

[Dereck03]

okay good, another questions if you dont mind
1. the way the HFG order keeps all the other orders maintained is by creating new gods to replace the old ones right?
2. so if the HFG order is destroyed there will be no more order to replace the new order?
3. And anos plans to or swallowed the HFG order and maintained it after killing

You're funny, you're just turning the thread in your favor and creating confusion and recycling arguments that have been previously debunked, I won't even bother to continue debating with you, it's a waste of time.

 

[imZer0Null]

1. the way the HFG order keeps all the other orders maintained is by creating new gods to replace the old ones right?
2. so if the HFG order is destroyed there will be no more order to replace the new order?
3. And anos plans to or swallowed the HFG order and maintained it after killing

1. No. I already answered this above. The HGF's order can create new gods and order to compensate for, not completely replace, disrupted order.
The Order of Order also literally maintains all other order, and if it's disrupted, NOT DESTROYED, all other order is disrupted and eventually destroyed.
2. He does not replace order. Refer to the above explanation.
3. No.

 

[InfiniteCosmology]

i am just quoting the guy that said he is above baaseline cause the layers are 99, so tag the right person. i dont know much about the verse but i know much about CM

Then ignore it, Silver Sea case is diff., here HFG of Militia Universe is to be taken into consideration, separate crt will be made for concepts working on each layer in Silver Sea.

 

[Dereck03]

i am just quoting the guy that said he is above baaseline cause the layers are 99, so tag the right person. i dont know much about the verse but i know much about CM

Who cares if the layers are 99, whether they are 3, 1000 or infinite, the point is that the difference in concepts between layer 1 and layer 2 is so huge that Anos, who could easily disrupt the order of destruction in layer 1, could not destroy the concept of a person in layer 2 or higher, for that he had to deepen his conceptual manipulation and thus equate it to the tremendous change that occurred between the concepts.

 

[InfiniteCosmology]

Who cares if the layers are 99, whether they are 3, 1000 or infinite, the point is that the difference in concepts between layer 1 and layer 2 is so huge that Anos, who could easily disrupt the order of destruction in layer 1, could not destroy the concept of a person in layer 2 or higher, for that he had to deepen his conceptual manipulation and thus equate it to the tremendous change that occurred between the concepts.

Pls refrain from including "cm in Silver Sea" here.

 

[Dereck03]

Pls refrain from including "cm in Silver Sea" here.

-__- I was the first one who said that this thread should focus directly on only Nousgalia and Anos and not anything about Cm being above baseline, but some people brought up the subject of the layers and I went a bit crazy, I apologize.

 

[PrinceofPein]

1. No. I already answered this above. The HGF's order can create new gods and order to compensate for, not completely replace, disrupted order.
The Order of Order also literally maintains all other order, and if it's disrupted, NOT DESTROYED, all other order is disrupted and eventually destroyed.
2. He does not replace order. Refer to the above explanation.
3. No.

well qualifies as type 1 as long as it getting affected affects every other order.
3. what i mean is was anos stated to or shown to affect the order of order, causevthe scans so far shows him affecting HFG and the HFG saying the orders will not be maintained after his death, that was why i was asking how the order was maintained after HFG deat, if it was ANOS doing well that makes for a stronger stance as a type 1 CM

 

[InfiniteCosmology]

-__- I was the first one who said that this thread should focus directly on only Nousgalia and Anos and not anything about Cm being above baseline, but some people brought up the subject of the layers and I went a bit crazy, I apologize.

Overexcitement is injurious to health, it may cause bone fracture. Anyways, now since the misunderstanding is cleared up, the staffs should be called, i guess.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Isn’t Type 1 supposed to be beyond all concepts in the setting? Doesn’t that stop Nousgalia from being Type 1 by higher layer orders > lower layer orders? I don’t think you can get Type 1 from the concepts of a single universe.

 

[imZer0Null]

3. what i mean is was anos stated to or shown to affect the order of order, causevthe scans so far shows him affecting HFG and the HFG saying the orders will not be maintained after his death, that was why i was asking how the order was maintained after HFG deat, if it was ANOS doing well that makes for a stronger stance as a type 1 CM

Oh... Sorry, I might have misinterpreted your question before.

Anos at first killed and revived the HFG with Venuzdonoa, and due to how broken Venuzdonoa is, the HFG's quick and temporary death did not disrupt his order.
Anos knew he couldn't afford to disrupt the HFG's order, so at the end of this arc, he developed a magic that usurped the HFG's order in a way that would not disrupt the order.
This magic basically changes who maintains what order, and Anos had Eldemade become the "new HFG" and maintain his order.

 

[InfiniteCosmology]

Isn’t Type 1 supposed to be beyond all concepts in the setting? Doesn’t that stop Nousgalia from being Type 1 by higher layer orders > lower layer orders? I don’t think you can get Type 1 from the concepts of a single universe.

Nowhere is specifically written "universe" in the definition of cm1. What written was, "reality in which it participates.." Reality can be universe,multiverse, complex multiverse, higher dimensions, and so on.
.

 

[imZer0Null]

There's no reason the shallow Order of Order, which governs other shallow order, should affect deep order, when there's a deep Order of Order which governs that.

If you destoy the entirety of the Order of Order, all other order throughout the Silver Sea will be destroyed. Simple as that.

This quickly explains it I think.
The concept must be independent of the reality it governs, and I'm pretty sure that 'reality' refers to the 'thing' it governs.
The Order of Order governs other order (Type 2 concepts) and is independent of all order it governs.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Oh... Sorry, I might have misinterpreted your question before.

Anos at first killed and revived the HFG with Venuzdonoa, and due to how broken Venuzdonoa is, the HFG's quick and temporary death did not disrupt his order.
Anos knew he couldn't afford to disrupt the HFG's order, so at the end of this arc, he developed a magic that usurped the HFG's order in a way that would not disrupt the order.
This magic basically changes who maintains what order, and Anos had Eldemade become the "new HFG" and maintain his order.

This quickly explains it I think.
The concept must be independent of the reality it governs, and I'm pretty sure that 'reality' refers to the 'thing' it governs.
The Order of Order governs other order (Type 2 concepts) and is independent of all order it governs.

well the order of order is Type 1 since its destruction/disruption means destruction/disruption of all the other order, while destruction of any order it governs does not affect it. and anos was shown to be able to affect/destroy the order of order so i guess it is fine, but the justification will be
CM type 1 with Venuzdonoa, i dont think the magic he did at the end really matter since it required prep time, it will not be combat applicable unless stated otherwise but it is a magic that affected a type 1 concept

 

[imZer0Null]

well the order of order is Type 1 since its destruction/disruption means destruction/disruption of all the other order, while destruction of any order it governs does not affect it. and anos was shown to be able to affect/destroy the order of order so i guess it is fine, but the justification will be
CM type 1 with Venuzdonoa, i dont think the magic he did at the end really matter since it required prep time, it will not be combat applicable unless stated otherwise but it is a magic that affected a type 1 concept

I agree that the magic he created wouldn't really be combat applicable.
Venuzdonoa however would definitely be combat applicable, and Anos' Chaotic Destruction Eyes, which can destroy order and reason (it's basically a portable Venuzdonoa), would also be combat applicable.

 

[Fixxed]

For something is the CRT, Venuzdonoa is the order of destruction but not completely, the power of Anos influences Venuzdonoa, so if this is accepted Venuzdonoa and Anos will have Cm 1.

Can you give the scene about

Venuzdonoa is the order of destruction but not completely, the power of Anos influences Venuzdono

 

[imZer0Null]

Can you give the scene about

Venuzdonoa is the order of destruction but not completely, the power of Anos influences Venuzdonoa

This might be what he referred to:

When that vessel is filled with your source and your divine body, a magical contract will be made with me. I will twist the order of the God of Destruction and turn the Sun of Destruction <Sargeldonave> into the magic that destroys reason, the reason destruction sword <Venuzdonoa>.

The Sun of Destruction already had type 2 concept destruction, but when Anos transformed the divine order it gained the power to also destroy reason, which is why Venuzdonoa is superior to the Sun of Destruction.