- 21,492
- 30,820
I'm one of the worst people to ask about Conceptual Manip or anything similar
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Possible Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation upgrade - Maou Gakuin
- Thread starter imZer0Null
- Start date
- Status
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,100
- 6,037
- 11,400
- 20,012
You don't seems to know about this....
God's only maintain the order... That's why when Aberneyu the God of destruction died the order of destruction was disrupted and the entire reality was disrupted but not destroyed, this disruption didn't affect the orders nor destroyed the reality... The HFG is the one who created the reality and all others orders in the world, if this order is merely disrupted, the reality and all other orders in the world will be destroyed unilaterally
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,100
- 6,037
but
it is different from this that will be type 1
let me give u an example, if you destroy the concept black, everything that is black seize to exist immediately, then it will qualify for you destroying a Type 1. but merely disrupting and eventual destruction after the concept is gone does not fit into type 1 just above baseline type 2
- 1,204
- 1,052
My knowledge regarding the verse is limited but the only thing that makes me doubt about it being type 1 is, that a direct change from order of order may/may not change the normal orders as well.
It's not just about being independent. I believe that the general qualification for an abstract concept is a principle that defines something, that if you change a concept, the object it governs will be changed too. A possible good example for this case is a random concept can create a universe and being independent from it, but that doesn't make that universe being an object that defined by said concept.
So as per my knowledge, it'd only be type 1 if the order of order is also a fundamental aspect in the perspective of the normal orders, that the order of order did not only created and mantain the existence of the normal orders, but also defines them, i.e changes from the order of order will change the normal orders too, or at least that the order of order makes up the normal orders on conceptual level.
Unless someone can correct me about how exactly type 1 concept may works on this about then I'll be neutral to disagree now (assuming the order of order just created and maintain their existences).
Edit: wording
It's not just about being independent. I believe that the general qualification for an abstract concept is a principle that defines something, that if you change a concept, the object it governs will be changed too. A possible good example for this case is a random concept can create a universe and being independent from it, but that doesn't make that universe being an object that defined by said concept.
So as per my knowledge, it'd only be type 1 if the order of order is also a fundamental aspect in the perspective of the normal orders, that the order of order did not only created and mantain the existence of the normal orders, but also defines them, i.e changes from the order of order will change the normal orders too, or at least that the order of order makes up the normal orders on conceptual level.
Unless someone can correct me about how exactly type 1 concept may works on this about then I'll be neutral to disagree now (assuming the order of order just created and maintain their existences).
Edit: wording
Last edited:
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,100
- 6,037
you are absolutely right
the entire basis of the type 1 HFG is that it is the order from which other orders are born and the destruction of the HFG means total destruction of the entire order since it is the concept from which the orders are derived from and the orders should not exist if the fundamental one ceases to exist. but the scan says that the the destruction of the HFG means the order of the world will be disturbed and eventually destroyed
eventually here means it will take some time before it happens. it is like saying after i destroy a type 1 Concept the concept will still exist for a while before it will cease to exist. example, i am the concept called "Humanity" and after i was destroyed "Humanity" still exists and was gradually dying off overtime, that will mean i am not a type 1 concept but simply a type 2 that is above baseline or not even a concept to begin with
if "Humanity" is a type 1 concept the moment it ceases to exist, humanity should no longer exist immediately
Last edited:
- 1,204
- 1,052
I edited my wording a bit, but yeah it could just be an order that maintains the normal orders to exists, created and predated them too. Not necessarily a literal concept that governs an object since it defines said object in reality. But then again, I don't know much about the verse nor conceptual manipulation ***** so take this as an another POV if possible.
- 7,142
- 4,658
Yeah, that's where the Orders heavily contrasts with how the site treats concepts. Never Type 1, both Type 2 and 3 concepts, if destroyed or altered, would lead to immediate changes to everything they govern. The things concepts govern are like their shadow, you remove or alter what casts the shadow and the shadow itself should instantly change.
- 550
- 256
I think some people misunderstanding it a lil bit
It was never stated that if nousgalia die the order would take a long time to be ceased and destroyed
It was stated that even for a temporary time the world will be destroyed
Because there's no order that Posibble to maintain their existence, since there are no other heavenly god father in militia's world
Because they are part of their father
The world would be instantly gone
Which is why even you disturb nousgalia for a lil bit,the world will be Collapsed,Since all of the world is a part of nousgalia,
So it's weird to say
About nousgalia don't directly define the world
It was never stated that if nousgalia die the order would take a long time to be ceased and destroyed
It was stated that even for a temporary time the world will be destroyed
Because there's no order that Posibble to maintain their existence, since there are no other heavenly god father in militia's world
Because they are part of their father
The world would be instantly gone
Which is why even you disturb nousgalia for a lil bit,the world will be Collapsed,Since all of the world is a part of nousgalia,
So it's weird to say
About nousgalia don't directly define the world
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,100
- 6,037
i mean now that i see this scan i get the full gist and i disagree.
The HFG is the order(god) that produces other orders(gods), so in this context coupled with this statement in the same context btw
If anything the reason why the world will end eventually after the HFG death is cause once the gods die no one will be able to produce them so the world will world order will be disturbed and eventually destroyed
- 1,204
- 1,052
That still didn't answer my question though, about the order of order is anything more than creating, mantaining, and being independent from the normal orders. But that it also defines them on conceptual level, say, it is what makes the order an order with Maou Gakuin's style of conceptual nature.
- 550
- 256
Absolutely no
And no, order don't need to be produced every time to exist , it's the case if they are destroyed, nousgalia will simply create them again, they die because HGF is also die, they also near impossible to be killed
The only character that can do that is anos and some other strong character
Even for a "temporary time" They will still die
So you didn't take the context properly
And you do know that disturbing the HGF a lil bit will cause the end result of the world?
Because the other order who literally define the world is also a part of his Existence
If the concept who defines all of reality died, it will make the world collapse as the statement show it
The order of the order is far from being anything more than just "Creating, maintaining and being independent for the normal order"
If we ignore the fact that show us if the concept order of order is disturbed for a little bit , it would directly makes the world Collapse
Since the order of the order is the things that makes up every reality in militia's world
The main part of every existence
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,100
- 6,037
i dont know much about the verse and from what was brought forward like i said, it is not a type 1 concept,
and giving birth to type 1 concepts does not make you type 1 in this scenario, giving birth to all laws and maintaining them in a way that after you die they still remain unless they are destroyed then they will cease to exist will also not make you a type 1 concept
- 550
- 256
Now you strawmaning the argument when we already have some point that supports it to not be just
"giving birth to all laws and maintaining them in a way that after you die they still remain unless they are destroyed then they will cease to exist"
But also have a literal argument about how the HGF concept "directly change the world" Not because the other order (his son and daughter) unstable
And no
"maintaining them in a way that after you die they still remain unless they are destroyed then they will cease to exist"
they will instantly cease to exist when HGF died
You missed a lot point here
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,100
- 6,037
provide scans for this and i agree
- 550
- 256
Wait
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,100
- 6,037
i mean scan that the entire world will ceast to exist instantly moment hgf dies
- 1,204
- 1,052
I'm still iffy since the CRT said that the order of order may/may not directly alter the normal orders once you altered it but, if this is true then I'll change my stance to neutral to agree.
- 168,536
- 77,310
- 16,407
- 10,837
Thats only to Normal Orders, but Nousgalia order is like, the end, if nousgalia order is gone, gg, iirc.
- 1,295
- 772
Nousgalia's order is a type 1 concept. Pls read the op. If Nousgalia's order is destroyed, the whole reality(Militia Universe) along with all other orders will be destroyed. However, the reverse is not true.
But I think Chief God is a better example because Chief Gods influence literally everything in their silver bubble.(so does Nousgalia). Nousgalia gives birth to type 2 concepts, can destroy them, but if Nousgalia is destroyed, everything included in that reality will be destroyed. If normal orders are destroyed, Nousgalia will remain unaffected.
Its very simple. The entire thing follows the very def of cm1.
These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality "participates" in these concepts.
which is also similar to:-
"In the Silver Castle World of Barandias, there is no magical artifact or inhabitant that is not subject to the order of the castle."
Last edited:
- 1,295
- 772
Given in the op.
魔王学院の不適合者 ～史上最強の魔王の始祖、転生して子孫たちの学校へ通う～ - 神の思惑
男主人公 魔王 西洋 学園 中世 チート 魔法 主人公最強 コメディ要素 R15 残酷な描写あり
ncode.syosetu.com
Last edited:
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,100
- 6,037
this is not a scan man wtfGiven in the op.
魔王学院の不適合者 ～史上最強の魔王の始祖、転生して子孫たちの学校へ通う～ - 神の思惑
男主人公 魔王 西洋 学園 中世 チート 魔法 主人公最強 コメディ要素 R15 残酷な描写あり
me: Naruto destroyed a universe
You: Scans?
Me: (Sends link to naruto manga)
- 1,295
- 772
Click on the link, its the link to the chapter.
- 16,407
- 10,837
He actually sent the link to the chapter that mentions about Nousgalia and his Order bruh, did u checked the chapter before saying that it isnt a scan?
- 1,295
- 772
Chaps 120-125 explains clearly about HFG.
- 16,407
- 10,837
「安心しろ。完全に再生できなくしては、世界が滅びる。貴様が時間をかけ、ぎりぎり秩序を回復させられる程度に壊しておいた」
ノウスガリアは俺を睨む。
その瞳には秩序を破壊された純粋な憎悪が宿っていた。
"Reassure. If you can't completely regenerate, the world will be destroyed. You've taken the time to destroy it to the point where you can restore order."
Nous Gallia glares at me.
There was a pure hatred in his eyes that destroyed the order.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,100
- 6,037
gave a read of the chapter and no where was it said if HFG was killed everything will be gone immediately, what was said was what i have stated previously. this was what i asked for and it was not in that chapter
don,t quote it wrong, what will make HFG a concept is that when he is destroyed everything he represents will cease to exist immediately which is not the case here.
- 1,295
- 772
Also from WN chap: 120
「私は天父神ノウスガリア。神を生む秩序、神々の父である」
瞬間、すべてを悟ったかの如く、驚愕した表情で皇族派の生徒たちはノウスガリアを見つめた。
神も永遠ではない。
奴らは秩序に従い消え、そして新たに生み出される。
そしてそれらを生み出している神が、天父神ノウスガリアというわけか。
「破壊神の力を御す君には確かにそれだけの力があるが、世界を愛する君は、それゆえに世界を滅ぼすことはできない」
「ふむ。なるほどな」
俺は歩いていき、ヴェヌズドノアをだらりと提げる。
その闇色の長剣を、まっすぐノウスガリアに突き刺した。
「…………！？」
理滅剣に貫かれた奴は、俺を呆然と見つめている。
「……ははっ……」
ノウスガリアが嘲笑う。
「浅はかな真似をする。脅しはそのぐらいでいいだろう。これ以上は、本当に世界を危機に曝すことになるよ」
「そうだな」
手に力を入れ、理滅剣を更に押し込んだ。
「ぐっ……はっ……」
神の唇から血が溢れる。
"Give wisdom to you who are ambiguous. I, the Father of God, is the father of the order of the world. If I perish, even temporarily, there will be no order to maintain the world during that time. If you destroy it, the world will be destroyed. "
God is not eternal either.
They disappear in order and are reborn.
And the god who produces them is the Heavenly Father, Nous Gallia.
"You certainly have that power to control the power of the God of Destruction, but you who love the world cannot destroy the world because of it."
"Hmm. I see."
I walk and hang Venuzdonoa loosely.
I stabbed the dark-colored longsword straight into Nousgalia.
“…………!?”
The guy who was pierced by the sword stares at me in a daze.
"... haha ..."
Nousgallia ridicules.
"I'll imitate it shallowly. That's enough to threaten me. Any more, I'm really putting the world in jeopardy."
"That's right"
I put a lot of effort into my hand and pushed the sword further.
"Gut ... huh ..."
Blood overflows from God's lips.
"... Stop, the Demon Lord of Violence. God's command is absolute ..."
"I don't receive any instructions, even if you're a god."
With magical power in the sword, he pierced the roots of him.
"... What a shallow ... a man ... destroying the world ... do you mind ...?"
"You are the one who is shallow"
"... Gut, huh ...!"
Venuzdonoa shines dark and destroys Nousgallia.
"... You can't ... destroy God, this me, God the Father ... Okay, the demon king of violence. This is the order set by God ... to you , To destroy the world ... "
「私は天父神ノウスガリア。神を生む秩序、神々の父である」
瞬間、すべてを悟ったかの如く、驚愕した表情で皇族派の生徒たちはノウスガリアを見つめた。
神も永遠ではない。
奴らは秩序に従い消え、そして新たに生み出される。
そしてそれらを生み出している神が、天父神ノウスガリアというわけか。
「破壊神の力を御す君には確かにそれだけの力があるが、世界を愛する君は、それゆえに世界を滅ぼすことはできない」
「ふむ。なるほどな」
俺は歩いていき、ヴェヌズドノアをだらりと提げる。
その闇色の長剣を、まっすぐノウスガリアに突き刺した。
「…………！？」
理滅剣に貫かれた奴は、俺を呆然と見つめている。
「……ははっ……」
ノウスガリアが嘲笑う。
「浅はかな真似をする。脅しはそのぐらいでいいだろう。これ以上は、本当に世界を危機に曝すことになるよ」
「そうだな」
手に力を入れ、理滅剣を更に押し込んだ。
「ぐっ……はっ……」
神の唇から血が溢れる。
"Give wisdom to you who are ambiguous. I, the Father of God, is the father of the order of the world. If I perish, even temporarily, there will be no order to maintain the world during that time. If you destroy it, the world will be destroyed. "
God is not eternal either.
They disappear in order and are reborn.
And the god who produces them is the Heavenly Father, Nous Gallia.
"You certainly have that power to control the power of the God of Destruction, but you who love the world cannot destroy the world because of it."
"Hmm. I see."
I walk and hang Venuzdonoa loosely.
I stabbed the dark-colored longsword straight into Nousgalia.
“…………!?”
The guy who was pierced by the sword stares at me in a daze.
"... haha ..."
Nousgallia ridicules.
"I'll imitate it shallowly. That's enough to threaten me. Any more, I'm really putting the world in jeopardy."
"That's right"
I put a lot of effort into my hand and pushed the sword further.
"Gut ... huh ..."
Blood overflows from God's lips.
"... Stop, the Demon Lord of Violence. God's command is absolute ..."
"I don't receive any instructions, even if you're a god."
With magical power in the sword, he pierced the roots of him.
"... What a shallow ... a man ... destroying the world ... do you mind ...?"
"You are the one who is shallow"
"... Gut, huh ...!"
Venuzdonoa shines dark and destroys Nousgallia.
"... You can't ... destroy God, this me, God the Father ... Okay, the demon king of violence. This is the order set by God ... to you , To destroy the world ... "
- 1,295
- 772
Read chap 120 and my scan. It would be better if you read from 119 to 125. You will understand everything if you are a WN reader.
- 13,587
- 5,754
Which part of this says the world will be destroyed instantly if the order is? Cuz this scan seems to say Nousgalia is the Order of Order and destroying him means destroying the Order of Order which. Yet the world isn’t destroyed immediately when Anos destroys Nousgalia’s roots so it would mean that his death isn’t instant destruction of the other Orders.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,100
- 6,037
i already did and nothing really says the world ceases to exist immediately tbh, this does not really fit into a type 1 or concept at all.
but it is not complete without this
in all honesty like i said many times, i know nothing about the verse so i may be wrong so i am neutral but this are not solid prove for a type 1 concept just more like a chain reaction that will happen if HFG dies
- 11,400
- 20,012
I can not debate much at the moment, but I come to clarify some things, at the moment Anos destroyed the root of Nousgalia instantly active Agromenaut to bring the root of Nousgalia to life (this isn't even necessary as Nousgalia can regenerate from root destruction), because without him everything would be destroyed has been said many times that without the HFG and the order of order reality would be completely destroyed along with all other order ... One factor would be when Anos disrupt the order of destruction, it affected reality but did not destroy it or affect the other orders, while merely disturbing the order of order would lead to the destruction of all the reality that it governs and the destruction of all the orders that it created, since Nousgalia is responsible for creating the orders (concepts), the gods and all the reality in which it governs, without it everything would be destroyed
- 1,295
- 772
It seems you haven't read the scan and the chapter.
Its simple, Nousgalia gives birth to type 2 concepts that are orders. Gods embody that order.
"And the existences that maintain and embody that order are the higher existences known as the gods."(Nousgalia)
[...]
The gods are not eternal either. They disappear according to the order and new ones are created and the one who produces them is the heavenly father Nousgalia.
But HFG embodies the order that gives birth to new orders.
“I am Nousgalia the heavenly father. The order that gives birth to the gods. The father of the gods.” (Nousgalia)
Destroying any order will simply cause the world to destroy, while disrupting it will limit the destruction of the world and will disturb the natural law.
“All things without exception must eventually lead to destruction, however, because the demon king stole that order the destruction of the world has been limited. Those that should have died did not die, those that should have brought about ruin did not and thus was the natural law disturbed. Other gods stepped in to compensate for it but the order was not completely restored. The result is what we have now 2000 years later.” (Nousgalia)
VENUZDONOA DESTROYING NOUSGALIA
The guy being pierced by Venuzdonoa stares at me in amazement.
“…..Haha….. What thoughtless behaviour. That’s enough threatening me. Any more and you really will endanger the world.” (Nousgalia)
“That’s true.” (Arnos)
I increase my strength and push Venuzdonoa in even deeper.
“Guu….ha…..”
Blood overflows from the god’s lips.
“……Stop demon king of tyranny. God’s command is absolute…..” (Nousgalia)
“I take orders from nobody. Not even the gods.” (Arnos)
I put magic power into the sword and pierce his origin.
“…..What a thoughtless….man. Are you going….to destroy….the world….?” (Nousgalia)
“The thoughtless one is you.” (Arnos)
“….Gu…fuuu….!”
Venuzdonoa shines darkly and Nousgalia is further destroyed.
“You…can’t…to a god. Destroying me who is the heavenly father…. demon king of tyranny. The order set by god…… the world is destroyed because of you…..” (Nousgalia)
I pull Venuzdonoa out of Nousgalia and for a moment that fellows body is covered in darkness.
“Get lost in the darkness of destruction and disappear.” (Arnos)
The darkness burst and he disappeared from the spot.
“Did you think I’d overlook you if you used the world as a shield?” (Arnos)
PROOF THAT NOUSGALIA'S ORDER IS A TYPE 1 CONCEPT
..If the heavenly father is destroyed then the world’s order will be disrupted and eventually the world will be destroyed.
[...]
Don’t worry. The world would be destroyed if you couldn’t carry out your order so I made so you can just about restore order and do your duty.” (Arnos)
[..]
"….When did you learn to completely control the power of the god of destruction….?” (Nousgalia)
“2000 years ago I could only destroy with it but now in these peaceful times I was able to overcome that weakness.” (Arnos)
----IT SIMPLY MEANS THAT NOUSGALIA WAS UNAFFECTED BY THE LOSS OF THE ORDER OF DEATH AND DESTRUCTION THAT ABERNEYU EMBODIED AND SO DESTRUCTION OF THE MILTIA WORLD.
Last edited:
- 873
- 661
- Thread starter
- #157
Please do not debate this topic if you're not actually knowledgeable about this topic, **because presenting incorrect information in the debate can cause unnecessary confusion.
Stop equating the literal god to his order, because that is incorrect. He only maintains his order.
As said previously, disrupting (altering) the Order of Order immediately disrupts and eventually destroys all other order in the world.
You still don't see the issue here?
This says that if the god who maintains the Order of Order is destroyed, the order of the world will be disrupted and destroyed. This means that if the Order of Order is disrupted, NOT DESTROYED, all other order will be disrupted and destroyed.
Stop equating the literal god to his order, because that is incorrect. He only maintains his order.
This does somewhat happen actually.
As said previously, disrupting (altering) the Order of Order immediately disrupts and eventually destroys all other order in the world.
Last edited:
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,100
- 6,037
i will get back to why this is not type 1
i am pretty knowledgeable about concepts types, i am not knowledgable on the verse so please bring an actual type 1 feat not nois
my scans says destroyed not disrupted tho, it says if HFG is destroyed the order will be disrupted eventually destroyed, that alone means it is not a type 1 concept.
Please read the concepts page well, if i destroy the concept of darkness, everything called dark cease to exist immediately not that it will be disrupted then stop existing later on, that is a chain reaction not direct effect
- 873
- 661
- Thread starter
- #159
I'm gonna kindly ask you to stop straw manning the argument.
You are constantly ignoring the fact that the statement only says the Heavenly Father God is destroyed, not his order.
It says the HFG is destroyed, but as I've said multiple times now, if the god who maintains his order is destroyed, his order would only be disrupted, NOT DESTROYED.
Last edited:
- 168,536
- 77,310
- Status
