Possible downgrade for Yogiri?

[Algaan]

I am a little confused here, because 1-A Yogiri from QnA https://imgur.io/a/W5bQ77k the explanation in the proof is: (Q Which Means Ask) Is the true form of Yogiri beyond the concept of dimensions? For example, no matter how many dimensions are piled up, they can never reach it at all. (A Meaning The Author's Answer) Dimensions, etc. are elements in one universe and may not exist in another universe. If there are a bunch of different universes, ...... well, Yogiri can ignore all that stuff. It is in QnA that a character can get 1-A because it is outside the concept of dimension, but we will take issue with a statement where the (Q) questions a saying that doesn't make sense. and the (A) answers the question nice and well. but when I look at the rules in this wiki that statments we have to get some evidence in the story such as : Option 5: The author is the one calling the Green Knight indestructible outside of the story. As with the previous option, this should be examined in the context of the story. A character being described as invincible, indestructible or all powerful in one setting might not be in the same position when compared to characters from other settings. Or: Note: Please remember that character and narrative statements tend to use flowery language and exaggerate to certain degrees. Without any further context to clarify, statements such as characters being "beyond space-time", having "Infinite power" or especially omnipotent statements are not enough to suggest upgrades. When reviewing a statement for potential upgrades, be sure to keep this in mind. so, but yogiri did not get further evidence even in the story yogiri's true form was not shown at all, so in my opinion this does not meet the requirements in this wiki where the Author answers questions without further evidence even yogiri's true form itself has never been shown so far in the story also yogiri's true form has never been shown. and someone who asks in the QnA seems to want Yogiri at this level (1-A).

So what do you guys think about this? I myself don't agree with that.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Agreed. Using a single very obvious leading question is hardly grounds for an upgrade for anything, let alone 1-A. If there's no narrative evidence of this, then it should be nuked.

 

[Benimōru]

Following, gonna wait for supporter input

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

This actually reminds me of the GoW devs getting asked some shit like "can Kratos destroy infinitely layered hierarchies" and the answer being yes. We don't use it because there's 0 evidence that this is true in-universe, and the question itself is clearly asked by a powerscaler with an agenda. I think Yogiri is a very similar case to that.

 

[Algaan]

Yes, as if the person asking wants yogiri to reach that level.

 

[Algaan]

Bump

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Disagree for now but want to hear more arguments.

 

[Shiroiyo]

Is this statement even 1-A? the standards have changed and this kind of statement only adds +1 qs level to the existing cosmology.

 

[Algaan]

Disagree for now but want to hear more arguments.

What is certain in This Wiki rule is that it must include further evidence, but the yogiri case here does not get any evidence, even the original form of yogiri does not get any story, only a QnA, and someone who asks in the QnA also seems to want yogiri to get such a level (1A).

 

[PhantomØ4]

The Q&A comes included in the series, there is no reason to dismiss it as a random BS go or unreliable secondary material even if it’s not part of the narrative.

The Kratos statement literally comes from twitter too which is very much dismissed as authors getting pestered. They aren’t 1 to 1 examples.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Is this statement even 1-A? the standards have changed and this kind of statement only adds +1 qs level to the existing cosmology.

Q: How can a character be 1-A and above without an infinite-dimensional/infinitely-layered cosmology, then?​

A: A good way to accomplish this would be to show that whatever state of being in which they exist is completely independent of the number of layers/dimensions present on the setting. For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted. This argument generalizes to tiers higher than 1-A as well.

Note that, in order to jump to 1-A this way, it does not suffice that adding one or several layers/dimensions makes no difference to the character in question. That much could be true even if the character only has one level of qualitative superiority to the constructs, as then they would all appear to have zero / infinitely small size to them. It has to be clear in some fashion that even if an infinite or unlimited number of dimensions/layers are added or removed it would make no difference to the character. The same applies to similarily large jumps in other tiers, like from 1-A to 1-A+ etc.

Q: What tier does a character being able to destroy an unlimited amount of dimensions equate to?​

Such a feat would be considered to be the upper end of Tier 1-B if there is no further context. That is because it could be understood to have the same meaning as the statement: "The character is able to destroy n-dimensional space, for any number n." In that formulation it is clear that such a statement would cover all finite dimensions, but we do not assume that "an unlimited amount" would cover infinitely many dimensions or even higher cardinalities of them. If the verse is known to have infinite dimensions, then this would instead be interpreted as being able to destroy all dimensions the verse is known to have.

First of all, I think we need to build a premise under two kinds of cosmological ideas.

1. Statements that a character "transcends dimensions," is the "source of all dimensions," or "transcends all planes of existence."

2. Statements that a character "transcends unlimited dimensions" or "transcends the hierarchy no matter how far it's expanded."

Statements of the former kind would only be +1 dimensional since "all dimensions" and "all layers" is assumed to refer to the number of levels of infinity explicitly shown. On the other hand, statements of the latter kind delve into speculative dimensions. However, we already know how to treat such statements as of Ultima's revisions to the [reaching 1-A without a hierarchy] standards.

As the citations above explain, "transcending the hierarchy no matter how many layers are piled up" is assumed to be infinite dimensional since infinity is already beyond any countable number. However, if memory serves me correctly, Yogiri was high 1-B before this statement came out. Since we know the hierarchy [of dimensions] is already infinite, then by the current standards, the speculative dimensions would be 1-A since uncountably infinite layers is beyond any countably infinite hierarchy. For that reason, I think we should leave his tier as is. Disagree with the downgrade.

I'm gonna call over some people who've defended the verse in the past.

@NIK_FARIS @Abstractly_a_Protagonist

Also, about the Word Of God usage here...

Regarding direct information from the author/creator of a character: We do not use statements from them that are phrased in an uncertain, uncaring, and/or unspecific manner, such as "Could be", "Maybe", "Probably", "Possibly" etcetera. Brief or vague answers to fan-questions via social media are also generally disregarded, whereas more elaborate explanations in serious interviews are usually considered more reliable.

• When a statement from a character, guidebook, or even word of god contradicts what occurs in the series, they won't be used. For example, if an author says that a character from his work is incapable of shattering planets, even though it has destroyed galaxies on-screen, we will always go with the latter, rather than the former. The statement needs to be consistent with what has been revealed within the fictional franchise itself. Otherwise, it will be considered invalid.
• Author statements will only be accepted when they clarify what has been shown or implied in the series itself, and will be rejected when they contradict what has been shown to the audience. Statements that technically do not contradict anything shown in the series will still be rejected if there is no evidence that they are accurate.

Outerverse level (Represents the End of all existence, nonexistence and phenomena, standing beyond[39][40] the conceptual[78][79] hierarchy of heavenly records/The Sea[80][81] and the endless hierarchy of higher-level continuums that resides beyond The Sea,[90] where lower-dimensional spaces are embedded within higher-dimensional ones.

His statement literally supplements what we already know about the cosmology. How is it unreliable when the series itself has mentions of transcending an endless hierarchy?

 

[Algaan]

The Q&A comes included in the series, there is no reason to dismiss it as a random BS go or unreliable secondary material even if it’s not part of the narrative.

The Kratos statement literally comes from twitter too which is very much dismissed as authors getting pestered. They aren’t 1 to 1 examples.

asking about beyond the concept of dimensions? doesn't make sense.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

The author still replied and was pretty explicit about it to add to the statement. And from @PhantomØ4 's words it was even included in the work so it's more a guidebook than a random statement.

 

[PhantomØ4]

if memory serves me correctly, Yogiri was high 1-B before this statement came out. Since we know the hierarchy [of dimensions] is already infinite, then by the current standards, the speculative dimensions would be 1-A since uncountably infinite layers is beyond any countably infinite hierarchy. For that reason, I think we should leave his tier as is. Disagree with the downgrade.

The infinity dimension hierarchy is also partially due to type 4 multiverse which has already been gone over twice or more in other downgrades and upgrades to mean that it should include any mathematical concept shown such as dimensions extended to infinity. (Probably didn’t word this the best cuz typed fast; hope no misunderstanding)

 

[Abscoolguy]

Disagree fra

 

[PhantomØ4]

asking about beyond the concept of dimensions? doesn't make sense.

You can think so but unfortunately it got past publishers (the questions are submitted into) into author’s hands, he decided to respond to it and comes included with the primary material. Even then it’s not like it came out of nowhere as within the story as UEG was having her little ascension bs.

 

[Algaan]

You can think so but unfortunately it got past publishers (the questions are submitted into) into author’s hands, he decided to respond to it and comes included with the primary material. Even then it’s not like it came out of nowhere as within the story as UEG was having her little ascension bs.

Where did the question come from? I only know that the Author only answered the question and did not include it in the story.

 

[Algaan]

Disagree fra

Well, can you give that reason?

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Well, can you give that reason?

He did say fra which means he agrees with the points of the previous members who disagreed.

 

[PhantomØ4]

Where did the question come from? I only know that the Author only answered the question and did not include it in the story.

Pretty sure it came out of one of the usual Q&As

 

[Benimōru]

Yeah, then count me as disagree as well. I got what I needed from the supporters

 

[Algaan]

Pretty sure it came out of one of the usual Q&As

"not the person in the story who was doing it as a bonus for the book". Not the person in the story? then who? and twitter Author sorry (fujitaka) even now will not answer any questions (I see it in twitter bio).

 

[PhantomØ4]

"not the person in the story who was doing it as a bonus for the book". Not the person in the story? then who? and twitter Author sorry (fujitaka) even now will not answer any questions (I see it in twitter bio).

He won’t answer twitter questions like the Kratos example. These Q&As came once a volume and were submitted to the publisher who picked out questions for him that then came as a bonus and tended to be answered as if, say, Yogiri was answering (that’s what he means by not a person in the story)

 

[Georredannea15]

This actually reminds me of the GoW devs getting asked some shit like "can Kratos destroy infinitely layered hierarchies" and the answer being yes. We don't use it because there's 0 evidence that this is true in-universe, and the question itself is clearly asked by a powerscaler with an agenda. I think Yogiri is a very similar case to that.

I said this in the previous thread. The question asked to the author is not supported by the verse, in fact, the author's answer says that the dimensions are just universal dimensions, rather than being spatially higher dimensions. In fact, this statement puts even 1-B in a difficult situation.

Also, I don't need to mention that the question is related to Tier.

And what's funnier is that the answer to that question puts even the previous 1-B scale in a difficult situation.

 

[Georredannea15]

He won’t answer twitter questions like the Kratos example. These Q&As came once a volume and were submitted to the publisher who picked out questions for him that then came as a bonus and tended to be answered as if, say, Yogiri was answering (that’s what he means by not a person in the story)

Hmmm man, i guess there is not much difference because the question is again based on Tier and most importantly, it is a guiding question.

 

[PhantomØ4]

Hmmm man, i guess there is not much difference because the question is again based on Tier and most importantly, it is a guiding question.

Can you cite the rules regarding this in vsbw? Because I am looking at it right now and it is just frowned upon; like the page says “if possible to limit them” and and it is assumed that this happens via social media where authors try to appease cuz too many questions.

Additionally; the author did not just answer “yes” but elaborated upon it which would make the main concern by leading question almost null.

 

[Georredannea15]

Can you cite the rules regarding this in vsbw? Because I am looking at it right now and it is just frowned upon; like the page says “if possible to limit them” and and it is assumed that this happens via social media where authors try to appease cuz too many questions.

man, don't bother me pls, I'm so tired today, WHhahha

Additionally; the author did not just answer “yes” but elaborated upon it which would make the main concern by leading question almost null.

If you look at the question, you can see that it is actually a leading question.

Instead of asking a very open-ended question and asking for clarification, "it's like that, right?" A question that will guide the person who will answer in the style of

 

[PhantomØ4]

man, don't bother me pls, I'm so tired today, WHhahha

If you look at the question, you can see that it is actually a leading question.

Instead of asking a very open-ended question and asking for clarification, "it's like that, right?" A question that will guide the person who will answer in the style of

I don’t wanna do this either, it’s literally the same things that have been discussed in like 3 threads I have lurked.

I didn’t deny that it was a leading question but I am saying that the concerns of issues caused by them should be reduced greatly by the fact that the author elaborated upon on his answer.

 

[Algaan]

He won’t answer twitter questions like the Kratos example. These Q&As came once a volume and were submitted to the publisher who picked out questions for him that then came as a bonus and tended to be answered as if, say, Yogiri was answering (that’s what he means by not a person in the story)

Dimensions, etc. are elements in one universe and may not exist in another. If there are a bunch of different universes, ...... well, okay, Yogiri can ignore all those things. in this case it seems like someone is answering not yogiri himself as you said "Yogiri is answering" well in the QnA answer they said "okay, Yogiri can ignore all those things". it's like someone is answering a question about yogiri, not yogiri himself is answering if yogiri himself is answering it should make more sense if "yes I can do it", and someone asking in QnA is people like us (Power scale) is that allowed here? I don't think so.

 

[Andika_CL_atmadja]

He won’t answer twitter questions like the Kratos example. These Q&As came once a volume and were submitted to the publisher who picked out questions for him that then came as a bonus and tended to be answered as if, say, Yogiri was answering (that’s what he means by not a person in the story)

I believe this practice is very common in japanese Novel Q&A. Using twitter is just more straightforward.

 

[Andika_CL_atmadja]

btw is this series on vs wiki based on light novel or Web Novel (which came from Shōsetsuka ni Narō) ?

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

Following

 

[Fixxed]

I read the upgradre thread before, i think the 1A level is come from beyond the multiverse type 4 that they say it by default is low 1A

 

[Asdeef]

The Q&A doesn't even matter. The novel is explicit on the cosmology being a type 4 multiverse. Yogiri scales above it.

Disagree fra

 

[Railgun]

Wouldn't this reduce yogiri to low 1a and UEG to H1B?

I read the upgradre thread before, i think the 1A level is come from beyond the multiverse type 4 that they say it by default is low 1A

Can you share the link of that thread? I can't find it anywhere

 

[YungManzi]

I said this in the previous thread. The question asked to the author is not supported by the verse, in fact, the author's answer says that the dimensions are just universal dimensions, rather than being spatially higher dimensions. In fact, this statement puts even 1-B in a difficult situation.

This is clearly false. Re-read the answer.

Dimensions, etc. are elements in one universe and may not exist in another. If there are a bunch of different universes, ...... well, okay, Yogiri can ignore all those things

You mean to tell me the author is saying some universes aren't universal dimensions? Because that's what would have to be true in order for WOG to only be talking about universal space-times here.

in response to the leading question stuff I'll just repost what I and kerwin said in the original thread.

I don't get the leading question counter argument.

Like, sure that could be dubious if the author just said "Yes." and that was it; but the response is two sentences long of the author explaining the cosmology and concluding with "Yogiri can ignore all those things.". This is clearly with regards to the cosmology and how Yogiri fits within it, and likely why the author chose to answer the question in such a manner.

Leading questions, in general, are questions that desire yes or no answers something like "Can Goku blow up a planet?". Most often the answer would just be "Yes.". However, the kind of answer fujitaka gave is more similar to:

"Planets ect. are part of some solar systems and may not exist in others; and Goku can destroy solar systems; so he can blow up planets."
See how one is a far more potent answer? The second one wasn't even a "Yes." but restating what the original post said and referencing it.

Like, our accepted Ben 10 cosmology given by the author is literally just "Yes." in response to an actual leading question on twitter iirc (Something like: are there infinite universes?); while this is an official QnA on the website where the novel is published and sold lol.

I’ll be saying this for the sake of literacy. This is not a leading question. It’s just a question. The question doesn’t lead the respondent in a favorable way. It’s a yes or no. There are different types of leading questions; assumption based lq, lq with interconnected statements, scale based, direct implication, and coercive leading. Neither one of those satisfy/meet the requirements for the question to be classified as such. Just because a question has a follow-up statement to make a question more accurate doesn’t make it a leading question.

If one were to say “Oh I confused leading question with loaded question.” This is also incorrect as the question doesn’t attempt restrict to direct replies to be those that serve the questioner’s agenda.

Let’s take the question “Is the true form of Yogiri beyond the concept of dimensions? For example, no matter how many dimensions are stacked, they will
never be able to reach him at all.“ to be our general statement.

If it was based on coercion then it would be “The true form of Yogiri is beyond the concept of dimensions. Right? [Explanation of the concept]” It would force the respondent to affirm.

If it was based on interconnected statements then it would be “Many readers think that Yogiri’s true form is beyond the concept of dimensions. [Explanation of the concept] Do you agree?” The statement attempts to persuade by highlighting how others feel first before posing the question.

If it was based on direct implication(usually this is experience-based but for the sake of context) it would be “How transcendent/beyond is Yogiri’s true form to the concept of dimensions? [Explanation of the concept]” The question suggests/implies that Yogiri is already beyond it, just how far he is.

Scale-based leading question is a scale question with positive responses options outnumbering the negative. ie the infamous “extremely satisfied, satisfied, somewhat satisfied, etc”

Assumption based operates on preconceived notions that the “person asking the question” holds. ie “How bad was the teacher’s speech went?” etc.

The initial question is neutral. Asking for clarification is not a leading question. Asking a question is not a leading question, and like I said earlier. A question that has a background/info on what is it about, doesn’t warrant it as a leading question.

I’m saying this for literacy’s sake, not for attempt to upgrade/downgrade. Fujitaka’s answer is not even the main reason why Yogiri would be placed on that tier, it’d be just supporting evidence.

 

[Algaan]

But in this wiki, there must be further evidence, not just taking the author's words, especially this yogiri QnA as if the person who wants to improve

 

[Algaan]

I read the upgradre thread before, i think the 1A level is come from beyond the multiverse type 4 that they say it by default is low 1A

Can you share that information?

 

[Yzxke789]

I am a little confused here, because 1-A Yogiri from QnA https://imgur.io/a/W5bQ77k the explanation in the proof is: (Q Which Means Ask) Is the true form of Yogiri beyond the concept of dimensions? For example, no matter how many dimensions are piled up, they can never reach it at all. (A Meaning The Author's Answer) Dimensions, etc. are elements in one universe and may not exist in another universe. If there are a bunch of different universes, ...... well, Yogiri can ignore all that stuff. It is in QnA that a character can get 1-A because it is outside the concept of dimension, but we will take issue with a statement where the (Q) questions a saying that doesn't make sense. and the (A) answers the question nice and well. but when I look at the rules in this wiki that statments we have to get some evidence in the story such as : Option 5: The author is the one calling the Green Knight indestructible outside of the story. As with the previous option, this should be examined in the context of the story. A character being described as invincible, indestructible or all powerful in one setting might not be in the same position when compared to characters from other settings. Or: Note: Please remember that character and narrative statements tend to use flowery language and exaggerate to certain degrees. Without any further context to clarify, statements such as characters being "beyond space-time", having "Infinite power" or especially omnipotent statements are not enough to suggest upgrades. When reviewing a statement for potential upgrades, be sure to keep this in mind. so, but yogiri did not get further evidence even in the story yogiri's true form was not shown at all, so in my opinion this does not meet the requirements in this wiki where the Author answers questions without further evidence even yogiri's true form itself has never been shown so far in the story also yogiri's true form has never been shown. and someone who asks in the QnA seems to want Yogiri at this level (1-A).

So what do you guys think about this? I myself don't agree with that.

I think Yogiri's true form has been shown many times: endless darkness.

For example, what Darian encountered was darkness with countless eyes staring, and UEG encountered darkness. and was completely killed.

(Or have I misunderstood this statement? yogiri's true form itself has never been shown so far in the story also yogiri's true form has never been shown)

 

[Algaan]

I think Yogiri's true form has been shown many times: endless darkness.

For example, what Darian encountered was darkness with countless eyes staring, and UEG encountered darkness. and was completely killed.

(Or have I misunderstood this statement? yogiri's true form itself has never been shown so far in the story also yogiri's true form has never been shown)

No, yogiri only broke a few of his seals in the story.