Discussing validity of Low 1-A/1-A Instant Death

[BestMGQScalerEver]

This is not necessarily a downgrade (although it could turn into one since it's deciding if the tier is valid or not) but clarification on something that was bound to happen.

I decided to make this thread as I'd rather include everything than someone making a CRT and just taking one of the justifications while ignoring the other.

WoG implied that Yogiri's true form is inaccessible to higher dimensions, no matter how many of them are stacked, as it can destroy all of those things

Here's the controversial one which is a main support for 1-A rating. This question does seem very powerscaley and like a leading question although heavily discussed in the thread it was accepted it's still brought up time and time again as something that should not be used. What's interesting about it though is that it's not a typical question on twitter but from what I heard from an official Q&A that the editor/author decided to include in the story. Is this valid or not?

Its will alone defines the totality of existence, which is stated to be an Ultimate Ensemble

Yogiri is also what defines the ultimate ensemble world (type 4 multiverse) and said ultimate ensemble relies on his existence while Yogiri essentially transcends it, but does this deserve a high tier on it's own? It's pretty much without context. https://vsbattles.com/threads/type-4-multiverse-and-outerverse-level.156361/ Here it's also discussed (but not concluded) that a type 4 multiverse does not inherently grant anything on it's own. It's also not technically an accepted standard from what I can find anywhere that it gives low 1-A.

Something that might support a low 1-A rating almost independent of the above if above is invalid.

Represents the End of all existence, nonexistence and phenomena, standing beyond[39][40] the conceptual[78][79] hierarchy of heavenly records/The Sea[80][81] and the endless hierarchy of higher-level continuums that resides beyond The Sea,[90] where lower-dimensional spaces are embedded within higher-dimensional ones.

This here implies a High 1-B hierarchy and with Yogiri being above and defining the entire cosmology this could either just give him a High 1-B rating or a low 1-A depending on how his relationship to the cosmology is accepted.

Keep as is:

Downgrade current rating:

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

I am following this , shit is about to go crazy ik

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I do believe that forming the entire basis for 1-A on a leading powerscaling bait question is enough for a downgrade. Of course, statements like that are usually only allowed to support pre-rusting evidence, and when the evidence for 1-A is already so weak, a single supporting statement is nowhere near enough.

So, downgrade away. I need time to think about whether it'd be high 1-B or low 1-A.

 

[Eclipso]

This is not necessarily a downgrade (although it could turn into one since it's deciding if the tier is valid or not) but clarification on something that was bound to happen.

I decided to make this thread as I'd rather include everything than someone making a CRT and just taking one of the justifications while ignoring the other.


Here's the controversial one which is a main support for 1-A rating. This question does seem very powerscaley and like a leading question although heavily discussed in the thread it was accepted it's still brought up time and time again as something that should not be used. What's interesting about it though is that it's not a typical question on twitter but from what I heard from an official Q&A that the editor/author decided to include in the story. Is this valid or not?


Yogiri is also what defines the ultimate ensemble world (type 4 multiverse) and said ultimate ensemble relies on his existence while Yogiri essentially transcends it, but does this deserve a high tier on it's own? It's pretty much without context. https://vsbattles.com/threads/type-4-multiverse-and-outerverse-level.156361/ Here it's also discussed (but not concluded) that a type 4 multiverse does not inherently grant anything on it's own. It's also not technically an accepted standard from what I can find anywhere that it gives low 1-A.

Something that might support a low 1-A rating almost independent of the above if above is invalid.

This here implies a High 1-B hierarchy and with Yogiri being above and defining the entire cosmology this could either just give him a High 1-B rating or a low 1-A depending on how his relationship to the cosmology is accepted.

Keep as is:

Downgrade current rating:

No idea what this verse is, but just wanted to add that “transcending a type 4 multiverse” is incoherent, and not just in the usual sense that transcending something isn’t always well-defined

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

No idea what this verse is, but just wanted to add that “transcending a type 4 multiverse” is incoherent, and not just in the usual sense that transcending something isn’t always well-defined

This is for the characters from instant death name yogiri

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

First of all, I want to say to keep a pause to this whole stuff.

Vol. 14 will officially become available (released) on 15 December. There may or may not more evidence to justify the current rating.

So keeping it till that time is reasonable, no? It's only 12 more days, downgrading him now only to find out there is more concrete evidence when the volume is released would be redundant.

And honestly the timing is so random, why now? Why not sooner? Or wait till the volume is out? Beats me.

 

[Dereck03]

And honestly the timing is so random, why now? Why not sooner? Or wait till the volume is out? Beats me.

Blame haters.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

And honestly the timing is so random, why now? Why not sooner? Or wait till the volume is out? Beats me.

Because it was brought up recently and I decided to make a thread to get things out of the way.

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

Because it was brought up recently and I decided to make a thread to get things out of the way.

Ah the whataboutism that lead to people to start caring about other people verse.
The very thing that everyone in this site really likes to do

Mah, I guess that's explain it.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

First of all, I want to say to keep a pause to this whole stuff.

Vol. 14 will officially become available (released) on 15 December. There may or may not more evidence to justify the current rating.

So keeping it till that time is reasonable, no? It's only 12 more days, downgrading him now only to find out there is more concrete evidence when the volume is released would be redundant.

I don't think there's any reason to delay something that hinges upon a "could be" without a very strong reason to believe the current things like type 4 multiverse or concept of dimensions would be expanded upon within the novel.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Ah the whataboutism that lead to people to start caring about other people verse.
The very thing that everyone in this site really likes to do

Mah, I guess that's explain it.

I didn't do this out of spite and I actually like the verse. I just did this so people don't just take the WoG scan without evaluating the type 4 multiverse scan as well as the other part of justification leading to a messy thread where people don't have the full picture on the justification.

 

[Benimōru]

Following

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

I don't think there's any reason to delay something that hinges upon a "could be" without a very strong reason to believe the current things like type 4 multiverse or concept of dimensions would be expanded upon within the novel.

Mitsuki's nature (which is only explained in-depth in V14) kinda has a significant impact on the cosmology.

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

I don't think there's any reason to delay something that hinges upon a "could be" without a very strong reason to believe the current things like type 4 multiverse or concept of dimensions would be expanded upon within the novel.

I cannot give you my word there will be more evidence given in the official release, after all, I'm not omniscience.

Though I'm proposing a pause so all the cards there is to the verse is revealed and ready to be inspected.

However, if the mods think we shouldn't delay this then "Que Sera Sera." Whatever will be, will be.

I didn't do this out of spite and I actually like the verse. I just did this so people don't just take the WoG scan without evaluating the type 4 multiverse scan as well as the other part of justification leading to a messy thread where people don't have the full picture on the justification.

Nah, you're cool I think(?) Probably (?)
Just take my last message to be directed at anyone that feels so.

In any case, it's late at my place. So I'm gonna skedaddle for now.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Mitsuki's nature (which is only explained in-depth in V14) kinda has a significant impact on the cosmology.

Isn't that unrelated to the type 4 multiverse and WoG statement though? If it's really absolutely necessary I could possibly delay this. It also might be better to get this out of the way first though before tackling that like 13 days later (probably later because not everything happens instantly) so everything is clear with no further complications on this matter.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Isn't that unrelated to the type 4 multiverse and WoG statement though? If it's really absolutely necessary I could possibly delay this. It also might be better to get this out of the way first though before tackling that like 13 days later so everything is clear with no further complications on that matter.

Because if you are going to downgrade it, we would have to decide if its High 1-B or Low 1-A, whereas Mitsuki's stuff would inherently play a part in it.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Because if you are going to downgrade it, we would have to decide if its High 1-B or Low 1-A, whereas Mitsuki's stuff would inherently play a part in it.

I'm in a bit of a conundrum here because it would be better to clarify the type 4 and WoG before the Mitsuki stuff but Mitsuki stuff is also strong evidence for low 1-A.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Maybe we can decide upon this first and if it's downgraded we don't have to instantly apply the changes (kinda like what happened with bleach where a tier was downgraded but wasnt applied because upcoming mass revisions would give a new tier) and follow up a tier decision in a later thread as well as clarify in a note on the profile that says on the lines of current tiers may not properly represent the tier and are heavily subject to change

 

[Railgun]

I don't know anything about the next volume and I can't talk about it. But this is something that has also come to my attention and I think that the Type 4 multiverse should be scaled to high 1-B and Yogiri to low 1-A.

 

[Fixxed]

Type 4 multiverse not give anything by default, soo the one of main reason for 1A should be removed

High 1B rating?? There are no clear proof for infinite dimension
1B or low 1A rating is more likely to apply if this getting downgrade

 

[Livinmeme]

Here's the controversial one which is a main support for 1-A rating. This question does seem very powerscaley and like a leading question although heavily discussed in the thread it was accepted it's still brought up time and time again as something that should not be used. What's interesting about it though is that it's not a typical question on twitter but from what I heard from an official Q&A that the editor/author decided to include in the story. Is this valid or not?

Pretty sure that is just a reference to axis, rather than power scaling as a whole. Unless you think that me spouting my math teacher stuff, makes it power scaling

 

[TokiNoOuja]

@Kerwin0831

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

So are we going to hault on this thread until new volume releases?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

They always have it out for my boy Yogiri.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Ah you know what? I'm gonna try and advocate in favor of Low 1-A/1-A staying. At the root of the issue is this thread:

Yogiri is also what defines the ultimate ensemble world (type 4 multiverse) and said ultimate ensemble relies on his existence while Yogiri essentially transcends it, but does this deserve a high tier on it's own? It's pretty much without context. https://vsbattles.com/threads/type-4-multiverse-and-outerverse-level.156361/ Here it's also discussed (but not concluded) that a type 4 multiverse does not inherently grant anything on it's own. It's also not technically an accepted standard from what I can find anywhere that it gives low 1-A.

As you mentioned, that thread was never concluded, which is why I think this CRT should've been placed on hold. Although everyone agreed with the Low 1-A default being discarded, there was no clear consensus on what basis can be used to make certain extrapolations for type 4 multiverses, with some users suggesting an explanation page be made before the thread was closed. Anyway, I want to cite this opinion comment from Ultima:

Would have to look at it from a case-by-case basis.

On the whole, "All structures that exist mathematically also exist physically somewhere out there" is a kind of cosmology that has a lot of potential, since any kind of math structure, the moment it's mentioned in-story, would be included there. Would take very little pushing to have this sort of stuff skyrocket all the way to 0 depending on the verse, even.

As for the argument for it being 1-A, specifically: Eh. If all the verse mentions is higher-dimensional spaces, for example, under the current underpinnings of the Tiering System, the most I'd be willing to extrapolate for such a thing would be High 1-B. This is because finite numbers of dimensions are inductive in nature, so, if you have n dimensions, for any number n, then mathematically you can also have n+1 dimensions. Naturally, that would result in countably infinite dimensions existing.

Now, if (and only if) the verse mentions alephs or something, I'd be willing to hand out 1-A or higher.

As Ultima argues, he sees an argument for type 4 multiverses being default High 1-B (that's only if a verse mentions higher dimensions), because if [finite number of dimensions] can exist, then [finite number +1 dimensions] can exist, as can [finite number +2 dimensions] ad infinitum. Though I see the reasoning outlined by Ultima here, I can see the apprehension against any vague mention of a higher dimension skyrocketing a type 4 multiverse to possibly infinitely many dimensions.

However, what sets Instant Death apart is that endlessly many dimensions have been established as existing. Of course, our semantics rules would consider "endless dimensions" to mean something like a transfinite (rather than infinite) number of levels of infinity. The thing is, type 4 multiverses should be analyzed on a case-by-case basis as they take very little wiggle room to skyrocket cosmologies, to the point where you could argue that such a cosmology depicting at least one higher dimension is grounds for a high 1-B tier. To summarize:

• While there was no clear consensus on the type 4 multiverse tiering downgrade thread, it seems everyone had agreed that such a cosmology requires little wiggle room to form extrapolations from. However, everyone agreed that the Low 1-A default should be discarded.
• Ultima brought up an argument where technically, any type 4 multiverse depicting any number of higher dimensions could be grounds for a high 1-B default.
• Instant Death already has a transfinite number of dimensions, so the verse requires very little wiggle room to go from transfinite higher dimensions to infinite higher dimensions.

Anyways, it's not like it was decided in that thread that you can't use type 4 multiverses for any degree of extrapolation anymore, just that the low 1-A default would be removed. There are a few accepted methods for tier skyrocketing without infinite hierarchies, and things like negative theology and Ultimate Ensembles are examples of such. Seeing as transfinite higher dimensions have been established, Instant Death has a more straightforward case for extrapolation to infinitely many dimensions than even examples outlined by Ultima, which is why I believe the multiverse should be tiered at High 1-B (infinite dimensions).

From there, I believe UEG should remain Low 1-A for seemingly having a conceptual transcendence over the multiverse (in other words, transcending it to the extent that she'd transcend the framework of the hierarchy as opposed to being a mere higher level to the hierarchy).

Low Outerverse level (During her battle with Tōichiro, she ascended into and destroyed endless higher-level space-time continuums that exist beyond the conceptual Heavenly Record multiverse, where lower-dimensional spaces are embedded within higher-dimensional ones,[87] in addition of one only being able to access a higher-level universe if you are higher-dimensional in nature to begin with. Transcends space and time of the multiverse, which is entirely conceptual, and stated that she would incinerate all of existence, including higher universes,[88] whereas the totality of existence is stated to be an Ultimate Ensemble[89])

And as for Yogiri's tier, I believe he should remain 1-A if he's depicted as having an inaccessible degree of superiority over beings like UEG.

Athlete level (Yogiri is exceptionally athletic and was given martial arts training from Tomochika[88][89][55][56]), Outerverse level with powers (Even at his avatar state, he is capable of channeling the power of the true form to attack, with both acting in tandem with each other.[63] Killed UEG with a simple thought[23]) | Outerverse level (Represents the End of all existence, nonexistence and phenomena, standing beyond[39][40] the conceptual[78][79] hierarchy of heavenly records/The Sea[80][81] and the endless hierarchy of higher-level continuums that resides beyond The Sea,[90] where lower-dimensional spaces are embedded within higher-dimensional ones.[90] WoG implied that Yogiri's true form is inaccessible to higher dimensions, no matter how many of them are stacked, as it can destroy all of those things. Its mere presence was enough to completely erase UEG.[23] Its will alone defines the totality of existence, which is stated to be an Ultimate Ensemble[91])

Anyways, that sums up all my thoughts.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

From there, I believe UEG should remain Low 1-A for seemingly having a conceptual transcendence over the multiverse (in other words, transcending it to the extent that she'd transcend the framework of the hierarchy as opposed to being a mere higher level to the hierarchy).

And as for Yogiri's tier, I believe he should remain 1-A if he's depicted as having an inaccessible degree of superiority over beings like UEG.

Anyways, that sums up all my thoughts.

I've recently heard that being above conceptual hierarchy of something like this should be 1-A instead of just low 1-A, but low 1-A would seem like the minimum for something of that scale. I'll also ask this thread to be closed until scaling on Ultimate Ensemble stuff has a clear resolution since that seems to be a pretty good point.