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Possible Downgrade for LN Rimuru CM type 2.

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EldemadeDityjon said:
It seems CP has different POV.

I am kinda lost now because this is the confusion i am facing. Information type 2 already covers Laws too. So is this Ok to give Conceptual Manipulation without any other statements. Because everything in Tensura is composed of information type 2 which also provides Concepts level abilities.

Because what I understand their Abstraction and Existence comes from information type 2. So isn't this information type 2 than CM type 2 existence?
Click to expand...
I agree
 
Veldora Tempest is a Catastrophe Class being, who Guy considers a natural phenomenon rather than an individual.
“Probably no—if I had to answer, probably ‘True Dragons,’ but they are more like natural phenomena.” (Volume 11)
Click to expand...

Great Spirits Gave birth to True Dragons, and True Dragons were born at the same time when the world is created. They are stated to be a Source Of the World ( Type 2 Concept: Dependent Concept, If it's destroyed it would destroy the world too ) because of this
Velgrynd smiled fearlessly, remaining unperturbed in the cage of hypergravity.
“As expected of a demon overlord. Your magic is perfectly powerful. However, for so long as you are bound by the laws of this world your attack won’t work against a True Dragon.”
As if to prove her point, Velgrynd shattered the jet-black pillar from within. She raised her mana and interfered with Carrera’s magic, rendering it powerless.
“Hahaha! As expected of Veldora-sama’s sister, you’re making it seem like a joke. If magic doesn’t work, then there’s nothing more I can do, huh? No! I have a sword technique I’m learning from Agera. It may be useless, but I’ll give it a try!”
Carrera seemed to be enjoying herself, even though her best move had just been defeated. Without any sign of distress, she raised the sword she had created with magic. The beautiful sword had a fierce presence that was unbecoming of a demon. Carrera’s magical energy flowed directly into the blade, giving it a radiant glow.
“This is most likely our only choice. It is not simple magic nor Skill, but a technique you have developed and improved yourself. It may work even against the True Dragons, the source of the world. Veldora-sama says that a woman named Hinata has proven this approach effective.”
Without needing to test it, Testarossa knew that magic would not work on Velgrynd. That was why she had materialized a whip using magic from the very start. The whip was white— a magic formula devised by Testarossa, possessing a contradictory nature known as “freezing white flame.
Click to expand...

In this part, it explains that the True Dragons are ancestors for all dragons out there.
And As much as we know When True Dragons are born they only have their will so " Holy Will of Nature " is not just what people call them.
Sometime after Guy awaked to become a demon lord, it didn’t take long before someone else awaked to become a true demon lord.
That someone was Milim. The ancestors of the four “True Dragons” emerged to the physical world and bred with humans.
What incredible thing was that the “True Dragon” who reproduced with humans were deprived of most of its power by their offspring. From then on, the breeding of True Dragon and Human became a taboo.
The true dragon who lost its power exploded into pieces. But it was successful in obtaining flesh on the ground world. It became the ancestors of dragon race.
The future generation would instead call the “Holy Will of Nature” as the “True Dragon.”
Nowadays, the dragon race is able to prosper on this land and its origin can all be traced to this one ancestor dragon.
Click to expand...
And as long as Their Will exist they will still Exist and they dont have any attachment their body. Their Material Body depends on their will which is ( Abstract Existince Type 2 : Information Type 2 )
They Dont have any attachment to their body

But Their Spiritual Body is their Will because
As the Great Sage explained, there were three types of topological forms in the world: astral bodies, the weakest form that surrounds the soul; spiritual bodies, which can form a base upon which to build one’s internal force; and material bodies, those directly connected with this world. The human body is the combination of all three forms.
A high-level elemental is nothing more than a mass of energy that gains sentience. In other words, it uses the “heart” protected by its astral body to control its spiritual one, you could say.
Click to expand...
High Level Elemental is Littelry is using its [ Spiritual Body ]

They cant exit with only Astral Body or Soul , but it was stated that Spiritual Life Forms can Exist as long as their wills exist ( Including True Dragons )
Of course, some monsters really don’t need a brain—their intellectual makeup resides in their astral or spiritual bodies instead. There are even some supernatural creatures who think with their “hearts,” so to speak, instead of any brain organ. Think of it as kind of like people who’ve gained the Complete Memory skill, such as Shion. All that does is re-create memories, of course, but it opens up the potential for thinking purely with one’s soul and astral body… And once you achieve that, it pretty much releases you from a physical life span and punches your ticket to spiritual livelihood. Once that happens, pretty much no physical attack can deal fatal damage, and if your physical body’s torn apart, you can regenerate it at will. Only certain special attacks, or weapons graded Legend or higher, would be any kind of threat.

Adalmann hadn’t quite reached that point. Wight kings like him are spiritual monsters, yes, but he’s still bound by the yoke of his physical body. His thought processes are all contained within his spiritual body so there’s no such thing as dying of old age for him—but even so, he cannot continue existing with just his soul and astral body. He was this close to becoming a spiritual life-form, but he wasn’t quite immortal yet—that kind of thing.-Volume 14, Chapter 1
Click to expand...
Spiritual Life Forms Can Exist with only their wills
Spiritual Body Contains Astral Body , Soul

Adalman is not a complete spiritual life form so he cant do that what spiritual life forms can.
Spiritual Body is (Abstract Existince Type 1: Concept Type 2 )







So Their Spiritual Body will fade away in Material World If they wont find a Material Body or Incarnate Themselves inside it like [ Diablo ] , Or can Create a Material Body Like Veldora or Fade away like [ Ultima ] but don't forget ultima didn't fade away instanly , nor her subordinates. Ultima Used her energy too much so she started fade away when she came to material world and in one of the spin-offs ( Yes, Trinity Tempes is Canon ) she didn't fade away instantlly either.
so its combat applicable.
This also applied to draconic races like Veldora, but in his case, he not only had a spiritual body, but he had a material one made from matter in the local area that he could freely control. High-level elementals didn’t have that kind of power, so when they left the spiritual world, their energy would disperse, and they would disappear. This is the fate that awaited any type of spirit-based life-form in the physical world, including angels and demons.
To keep their energy from fading away, they must either find a physical receptacle to form a pact with or a way to physically incarnate themselves. That, in essence, was what
made the material body so important in this world.-Volume 4, Chapter 7
Click to expand...



Govern the principles of the world, Here It shows that The True Dragons have Attributes like Spirits.
A divine monster spirit was a subordinate existence of the ‘True Dragon’ race. Like the ‘True Dragons’, they had various attributes, and fire was considered to be a major attribute. Attributes were the laws that governed the principles of this world, and there were eight kinds in total. (Volume 14)
Click to expand...
 
EldemadeDityjon said:
LN Rimuru profile states


But here we don't see anything regarding any concepts governing something else. This should be just abstract existence not CM type 2.

There is no statement or feats which shows True Dragons existence governs something. The single statement which states Source of the world is just vague and has no context. If True Dragons existence should get CM type 2 then need proof for governing something.

Also abstract existence should be limited that they can't exists as abstraction for longer time. They would eventually gets erased without physical body.

If a "True Dragon" dies.

I am open to rewriting the explanation if additional information is provided otherwise this needs to go.
Click to expand...
there's no cm2
 
Well you need to read thunderian thread very carefully if you don't understand I'll be back if they are refutes
 
EldemadeDityjon said:
So we just need to changed the AE to limited for True Dragons key as Celestial Pegasus suggested.
Click to expand...
Since this is such a minor change, it's probably viable.

Ask a content moderator to unlock Rimuru's (Light Novel) profile to implement this change.
(Currently the only True Dragon with a Light Novel profile is Rimuru.)

Abstract Existence (Type 1 - Concept (Type 2) - True Dragons are the Holy Will Of Nature and[13] the Source of the World.[22] They exist only as will, and have no attachment with their bodies,[1] as that is the result of the faith of those who live around them. But as with other spiritual life forms, they need a material body to interact with the material world. )

How is this ?
 
CodeCCLL said:
Since this is such a minor change, it's probably viable.

Ask a content moderator to unlock Rimuru's (Light Novel) profile to implement this change.
(Currently the only True Dragon with a Light Novel profile is Rimuru.)

Abstract Existence (Type 1 - Concept (Type 2) - True Dragons are the Holy Will Of Nature and[13] the Source of the World.[22] They exist only as will, and have no attachment with their bodies,[1] as that is the result of the faith of those who live around them. But as with other spiritual life forms, they need a material body to interact with the material world. )

How is this ?
Click to expand...
You forgot the limited but seem nice
 
CodeCCLL said:
Since this is such a minor change, it's probably viable.

Ask a content moderator to unlock Rimuru's (Light Novel) profile to implement this change.
(Currently the only True Dragon with a Light Novel profile is Rimuru.)

Abstract Existence (Type 1 - Concept (Type 2) - True Dragons are the Holy Will Of Nature and[13] the Source of the World.[22] They exist only as will, and have no attachment with their bodies,[1] as that is the result of the faith of those who live around them. But as with other spiritual life forms, they need a material body to interact with the material world. )

How is this ?
Click to expand...
I'm good with this
 
CodeCCLL said:
Since this is such a minor change, it's probably viable.

Ask a content moderator to unlock Rimuru's (Light Novel) profile to implement this change.
(Currently the only True Dragon with a Light Novel profile is Rimuru.)

Abstract Existence (Type 1 - Concept (Type 2) - True Dragons are the Holy Will Of Nature and[13] the Source of the World.[22] They exist only as will, and have no attachment with their bodies,[1] as that is the result of the faith of those who live around them. But as with other spiritual life forms, they need a material body to interact with the material world. )

How is this ?
Click to expand...
Like this limited should come first.
Limited Abstract Existence (Type 1 - Concept (Type 2) - True Dragons are the Holy Will Of Nature and[13] the Source of the World.[22] They exist only as will, and have no attachment with their bodies,[1] as that is the result of the faith of those who live around them. But as with other spiritual life forms, they need a material body to interact with the material world. )
Click to expand...
 
DeusExMachine001 said:
Did you forget that they can change their Spiritual Body and material body at will. In material world, and they can still launch spells, Skills , because skills inscribed into soul (Nucleic Heart )

What about Ultima ?
Click to expand...
Yes, skills are abstract , but while skills such as fire manipulation skill are abstract, fire resulting from fire manipulation is physical.

Also Underworld and Material World are completely different.
 
EldemadeDityjon said:
Embodiments of something is AE type 2 not type 1. And Conceptual Manipulation does states you need to affect reality to get CM type.

If they are concepts themselves then they should have some short of statement or feats to back it up to show affecting or destroying them would impact the reality in a big time.
Click to expand...
You are literally making your head cannon it clearly stated that they are the concept itself and it doesn't need feat to begin when it's for abstraction and there is still ongoing upgrade that you all ignore

Strongly disagree with this thread
 
Tempestdragon6 said:
You are literally making your head cannon it clearly stated that they are the concept itself and it doesn't need feat to begin when it's for abstraction and there is still ongoing upgrade that you all ignore

Strongly disagree with this thread
Click to expand...
Read the last 30 replies. You will understand I used to disagree too.
 
I'll put it here for those who say it's Limited because a True Dragon has a physical body (You'd better read the Abstract Existence page)
Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.
Click to expand...
 
Finally, after reflection, I completely disagree.
Their physical manifestations can be avatars because they can survive without it.
Thunderian said:
I'll put it here for those who say it's Limited because a True Dragon has a physical body (You'd better read the Abstract Existence page)
Click to expand...
Yes you are right
 
Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars
 
The reason it is stated as limited is because they are powerless as abstracts.
Its not because they don't fully qualify.
Most abstract existence type 1 can interact freely with the world with or without avatars.
Those who can't and needed avatars to interact with material world are limited as their abstract existence is incapable of performing some things other than what it grants like immortality and ressurection or avatar creation
 
We send you everything, it qualifies for the AE1, it doesn't matter if the most of the Characters in the wiki can intract with world or not that's what AE1 explanation says.

TheGreatJedi13 said:
The reason it is stated as limited is because they are powerless as abstracts.
Its not because they don't fully qualify.
Most abstract existence type 1 can interact freely with the world with or without avatars.
Those who can't and needed avatars to interact with material world are limited as their abstract existence is incapable of performing some things other than what it grants like immortality and ressurection or avatar creation
Click to expand...
They can exist in Spiritual World with out Material Body and fight with it.
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
The reason it is stated as limited is because they are powerless as abstracts.
Its not because they don't fully qualify.
Most abstract existence type 1 can interact freely with the world with or without avatars.
Those who can't and needed avatars to interact with material world are limited as their abstract existence is incapable of performing some things other than what it grants like immortality and ressurection or avatar creation
Click to expand...
In this case, the characters can fight other abstract characters on an abstract level.

The only problem is they can't physically attack.
 
We have seen attacks like Melt Slash , Dead End Rainbow that can easily affect Spiritual Body , Astral Body , Soul , Mariels Death Wish ,
 
CodeCCLL said:
No, they still need a Material Body to interact with the Material World , as Celestial Pegasus agrees.
Click to expand...
But instead, the point here is that the Material Body exists only as a vessel, not something that True Dragon really needs or must need, as said above.
 
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