Possible Downgrade for LN Rimuru CM type 2.

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

Also

Isn't this a thread about Rimuru?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Also

Isn't this a thread about Rimuru?

Well yeah we side tracked but it just shows Veldanova and Veldora has different kind of abstraction level.

Even if both are true Dragon there is no rule they wouldn't have differences.

Bleach has souls with same Physiology but different tangibility. One soul can be intangible and other can't. Even though both are souls.

I really don't see why that applies here.

 

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

Well yeah we side tracked but it just shows Veldanova and Veldora has different kind of abstraction level.

Even if both are true Dragon there is no rule they wouldn't have differences.

Bleach has souls with same Physiology but different tangibility. One soul can be intangible and other can't. Even though both are souls.

I really don't see why that applies here.

So

Why don't you prove that Rimuru's AE is limited when you think True Dragons are different?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Isn't the whole purpose that Rimuru's AE is compared to others?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

So

Why don't you prove that Rimuru's AE is limited when you think True Dragons are different?

Because you used Veldora scan so you need to show me scan for Rimuru having Veldanova physiology instead of Veldora. Even still for combat and other stuff he still needs physical body.

 

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

Isn't the whole purpose that Rimuru's AE is compared to others?

Eldemade thought that True Dragons were different physiologically.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Eldemade thought that True Dragons were different physiologically.

This is irrelevant. I am asking, is not Rimuru's whole abstraction simply because she has similarity to others? If yes, this thread is indeed about Rimuru.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Eldemade thought that True Dragons were different physiologically.

Only for abstraction. Not completely different physiology instead abstraction limitations.

 

[ImmortalDread]

All this 4 pages for simply pushing limitations to AE type 1. It became tiring, simply concede or provide legitimate counter-arguments and evidences.

 

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

Because you used Veldora scan so you need to show me scan for Rimuru having Veldanova physiology instead of Veldora. Even still for combat and other stuff he still needs physical body.

Veldora declared so when he declared himself a True Dragon

Rimuru had become a True Dragon

Why can't it?

After all, as a Spiritual Lifeform, Rimuru had left his physical body.

 

[ImmortalDread]

But needs body to interact to others. What the hell. Why would AE type 1 being required to get physical body to fight someone, this literally goes the whole logic for being abstract.

Also, I don't think being spiritual is enough by itself to be declared as pure abstraction.

 

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

But needs body to interact to others. What the hell. Why would AE type 1 being required to get physical body to fight someone, this literally goes the whole logic for being abstract.

Also, I don't think being spiritual is enough by itself to be declared as pure abstraction.

Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.

Ya, I think bolding the (effect), without bolding (cause) is the definition of nitpicking.

Are there any characters in the whole Tensura required feats to interact with abstractions?

 

[Catpija]

Spiritual Lifeforms such as Demon doesn't actually need nor use physical body, they only do when they are in semi-material world where no magicule exist so it consume energy just to stay there. Thing is, Veldora magicule is around infinite (not High 3-A, don't try to argue for it) and this scales to all True Dragons including Rimuru. Veldora can just stay hundreds of year in his non-corporeal state before "vanishing".

In a world that he thought was just beginning, civilization had already developed.

Instantly, he understood that he had been summoned.

It was magic, a technique that rewrote the laws of the world.

The power he had when he was in the Underworld was limited, and he could only exert the power of a newborn archdemon. Even so, it was enough for him, though it was inconvenient to be without a body.

He wondered why this was happening, and soon understood.

This was a semi-material world, not a realm of spiritual beings. In a space that was not filled with magicules, simply staying there would consume energy.

So the main point is

• True Dragon doesn't need a physical body to exist nor to interact, and only do so in a specific world.
• True Dragon can stay hundreds of year in non-corporeal form before vanishing, so in a what-ifs fight scenario this weakness would likely be not relevant at all.

 

[Catpija]

Are there any characters in the whole Tensura required feats to interact with abstractions?

I forgot to mention this earlier, but Spiritual Lifeforms can interact with other just fine without physical body. Guy can easily defeats other primordial demons before getting summoned, in another word before gaining a physical body.

Those were the Seven Primordials—devil lords derived from the Great Spirit of Darkness.

He was the first of them, and he was the king who ruled the underworld, the world of darkness.

Since his birth, his power had been absolute, the embodiment of darkness.

An arrogant king who could control the demons at will.

From his perspective, even his seven separate brothers and sisters of darkness were no more than like those of his many family members (dependents).

Once in a bid for supremacy, when two of the primordials teamed up to challenge him, he subdued the two to the ground without a second thought.

To him, it was nothing but mere child’s play, but one thing did become clear at that time.

That is, the ‘primordials’ were immortal. However, if they were crushed to the core, they would be resurrected in subordination to the victor.

As mental organisms, they were subjugated to their opponents once defeated.

With the discovery of this fact, the remaining four primordials fell into a stalemate.

 

[Shiraito983]

So you need to merge 3 dragons to recreate Veldanova? Also Regenerating body is just Regeneration feat or Immortality. We are talking about abstraction for Veldora not Veldanova from you scan

Veldanova is combination of all 3 Dragons. Correct me i am wrong.

He ain't, they're only theorizing that that Veldanava need all dragon factor to revive forcefully

 

[CodeCCLL]

This thread didn't need to be four pages long. We should clarify some things.

Why should True Dragons AE Type 1 be limited ?

To interact with the world, a material/physical body is necessary, this is a rule that applies for everyone from angels to true dragons

As the Great Sage explained, there were three types of topological forms in the world: astral bodies, the weakest form that surrounds the soul; spiritual bodies, which can form a base upon which to build one’s internal force; and material bodies, those directly connected with this world. The human body is the combination of all three forms.

A high-level elemental is nothing more than a mass of energy that gains sentience. In other words, it uses the “heart” protected by its astral body to control its spiritual one, you could say.
This also applied to draconic races like Veldora, but in his case, he not only had a spiritual body, but he had a material one made from matter in the local area that he could freely control. High-level elementals didn’t have that kind of power, so when they left the spiritual world, their energy would disperse, and they would disappear. This is the fate that awaited any type of spirit-based life-form in the physical world, including angels and demons.
To keep their energy from fading away, they must either find a physical receptacle to form a pact with or a way to physically incarnate themselves. That, in essence, was what made the material body so important in this world.-Volume 4, Chapter 7

Veldanava exists in pure an abstraction as the god who created the Material world. Veldanava is exempt from these restrictions.
But it is stated in both the manga and the Light Novel that this does not apply to other True Dragons.

So how does this restriction affect the characters ?

So the main point is

• True Dragon doesn't need a physical body to exist nor to interact, and only do so in a specific world.
• True Dragon can stay hundreds of year in non-corporeal form before vanishing, so in a what-ifs fight scenario this weakness would likely be not relevant at all.

As Catpija said, it's not really a case that greatly affects the battles.

Spiritual Lifeforms can only exist as a soul.
True Dragons (Highest Level Spiritual Lifeforms) can only exist by their will.

They can perform many functions without their physical body, although they will eventually need a physical body.

"Of course, some monsters really don’t need a brain—their intellectual makeup resides in their astral or spiritual bodies instead. There are even some supernatural creatures who think with their “hearts,” so to speak, instead of any brain organ. Think of it as kind of like people who’ve gained the Complete Memory skill, such as Shion. All that does is re-create memories, of course, but it opens up the potential for thinking purely with one’s soul and astral body… And once you achieve that, it pretty much releases you from a physical life span and punches your ticket to spiritual livelihood."

(Volume 14, Chapter 1)

" Now he had abandoned his physical body, only to reincarnate and become a fully spiritual life-form. The name of his species was Flamesoul Ogre, a type of elemental soul. Like True Dragons, he retained both the holy and evil attributes, making him something like a chaos elemental, a stripped-down version of a True Dragon. Both True Dragons and chaos elementals could take the form of various attributes, with "flame" being an upgraded version of "fire." "

(Volume 14 Chapter 4)

Spiritual Lifeforms can interact with other just fine without physical body. Guy can easily defeats other primordial demons before getting summoned, in another word before gaining a physical body.

In this case, Spiritual Life Forms such as Demons can also fight abstract beings like themselves on an abstract plane (Underworld).

So this doesn't prevent Spiritual Life Forms (such as True Dragons, Demons, Angels) from fighting their opponents on an abstract plane.

As a result, I think "AE Type 1" should be changed to "Limited AE Type 1.

But as stated above, this is actually not so important to them.

Let's talk about the applicable of this now.
So how should this be expressed:

"AE Type 1" might be overlooked as the restrictions don't quite apply to combat, but I'm worried it could be pretty significant in some case.

"Limited AE Type 1" I think this is the best option if explained in detail why it is listed as "Limited".

 

[Starfeldway]

So you need to merge 3 dragons to recreate Veldanova? Also Regenerating body is just Regeneration feat or Immortality. We are talking about abstraction for Veldora not Veldanova from you scan

Veldanova is combination of all 3 Dragons. Correct me i am wrong.

you're wrong

 

[DeusExMachine001]

you're wrong

He is not reading. This thread should be closed. He doesn't have any information about the Verse.

 

[Starfeldway]

if you agree Veldanava is a pure abstraction, why only Veldora. well there's no physiology difference or anything so what's the idea?, okay waht I think is VSB needs feat, and only Veldanava have shown feat to be a true abstraction in tensura which I won't argue against. If you guys see other true dragons as limited that's actually still at fault , cuz in Volumr 16
"it's impossible to note the so called immortal true dragon haven't been revived"- Volume 16 this quote directs to all true dragons and specifically means they can regenerate their body whenever
that manga scan is just Veldora coming back on his own he can exist in the world cuz that's a semi physical world he can still fully exist in the spiritual world and even fight as an abstraction if he wishes to
their rebirth isn't automatic it's manual
if veldora wants to stay dead he will stay dead

 

[ImmortalDread]

lol no. "if he want," argument is weak. We are shown that there are limitations.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Immortality and AE type 1 has no relationship. So stop using the argument of death and other things. Veldora has shown limitations based on his AE meanwhile your scan does indicates Veldanova doesn't have limitations. Which would just gives me an idea that abstraction time limits differs for every true dragon.

As I already gave example 2 characters can have same physiology but doesn't mean all things would be same. Time frame can differ from character to character. I wouldn't have considered this limitation if scans didn't said Veldora would get erased without physical body..

Anyway I will read Code arguments later.

 

[DeusExMachine001]

All this 4 pages for simply pushing limitations to AE type 1. It became tiring, simply concede or provide legitimate counter-arguments and evidences.

Many Scans provided and all of them first rejected because you guys tought those scans were only Flowery statements

Later Accepted then Ignored by you guys.

Ya, I think bolding the (effect), without bolding (cause) is the definition of nitpicking.

Are there any characters in the whole Tensura required feats to interact with abstractions?

You guys have been ignoring comments for too long , many people stated that They can intract with the Abstract things, Including me.

 

[Starfeldway]

lol no. "if he want," argument is weak. We are shown that there are limitations.

lol your comment makes 0 sense

 

[Starfeldway]

if he wants means no limit
dude have been an abstraction for 2000 years

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

OP asked for closing