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Possible Downgrade for LN Rimuru CM type 2.

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CodeCCLL said:
Now that Celestial Pegasus brought the scans here.

My opinion :

Considering what we've discussed so far, True Dragons should stay Type 2 Concept.

True Dragons only exist by their will.
But they still need to have a physical/energy body to interact with the physical/material world.

Therefore, True Dragons must have "Limited Abstract Existence Type 1".
Click to expand...
Agree with this but it should be noted regarding the part will is not combat applicable. Or I missed some part ? Only Spiritual Form seems like they can function as far true dragon scan states

I am only talking based on true dragons.
 
Its combat applicable they can still use their Spiritual Body , but it's not eternal like their material body because it has cost unlike material body

And I think they can still change to their Spiritual body and material body whenever they want so it is combat applicable.
 
DeusExMachine001 said:
Its combat applicable they can still use their Spiritual Body , but it's not eternal like their material body because it has cost unlike material body

And I think they can still change to their Spiritual body and material body whenever they want so it is combat applicable.
Click to expand...
No one is arguing about spiritual body dude we are discussing CM type 2 abstraction. Which is different from Spiritual body.
 
EldemadeDityjon said:
Immortality type 4 or 8 idk.but True Dragons are Immortal as long as their will exists.

Veldora states be is immortal because of the will.

Click to expand...
To me that just ties into what i have been saying, as long as they want to, spiritual lifeforms will continue to exist, that is unless you perform a core break or they run out of magicules

As long as Alberto wielded this gear, he essentially functioned as an incarnated spiritual life-form. That was the true power of God-class equipment—its ability to temporarily upgrade a being with physical form into one with spiritual form instead. And a spiritual life-form is, in so many words, a godlike existence, like Veldora and, well, me, I guess. It doesn’t really feel that way, but I’m definitely quite close to immortality. I know I won’t age anyway, and it seemed pretty likely that I’d never die—not unless I lost my magicules or experienced a core break in my heart.

In other words, spiritual life-forms experienced no natural death, were immune to all kinds of status ailments, and could overcome death itself through sheer power of will. That ability to raise people to the same level as such wondrous supernatural beings was enough to convince anyone that God-class gear was truly extraordinary.-Volume 14, Chapter 1
Click to expand...
They can overcome death through sheer will, so that Veldora scan makes sense, though True Dragons are said to be Holy Will and what not, they are the highest form of spiritual lifeforms.
 
CodeCCLL said:
What is the reason of this? I probably didn't see your comment.
Click to expand...
Well When they lose Physical body they can still exists as Spiritual Forms. But if that gets destroyed they would reborn into a new being am correct? That's what I got from the scans.

But this reborn thing is mainly reliant on the will (I believe it's talking about Concepts of the world, Holy will of Nature) .
EldemadeDityjon said:
Veldora states be is immortal because of the will.

Click to expand...

If it's combat applicable then they wouldn't lose anything and purely exists as Will itself by reforming their body and Existence back whenever they want but that's not the case it seems. Its like they can't exists purely as a will instead that will is acting as immortality for the dragon to reborn.
 
EldemadeDityjon said:
If it's combat applicable then they wouldn't lose anything and purely exists as Will itself by reforming their body and Existence back whenever they want but that's not the case it seems. Its like they can't exists purely as a will instead that will is acting as immortality for the dragon to reborn.
Click to expand...
They can exist purely as a will
 
“Hahahaha, because I am not omniscient nor omnipotent. When I was born, all I had was my will. At that time, I was satisfied. Thzdxe world was perfect and lacked nothing when I was the only one—in other words, it was boring, right?” (Epilogue Volume 16)
 
DeusExMachine001 said:
You guys Maniplated the scans to much , I think you guys need to show us the parts where you disagree ( The scans so we can prove it to you) because other people who came to thread after this much message is straight going to Tought our statements are same with the scans which is wrong.
Click to expand...
No need to accuse people for manipulating scans, you simply need to disprove them without this type of remark
 
What I am trying to say is , we gave them scans they took what they want from the scans and slowly changed it then it became whole diffrent thing, that's why Thunderian didn't able too keep up with the CRT.
 
EldemadeDityjon said:
Well When they lose Physical body they can still exists as Spiritual Forms. But if that gets destroyed they would reborn into a new being am correct? That's what I got from the scans.

But this reborn thing is mainly reliant on the will (I believe it's talking about Concepts of the world, Holy will of Nature) .


If it's combat applicable then they wouldn't lose anything and purely exists as Will itself by reforming their body and Existence back whenever they want but that's not the case it seems. Its like they can't exists purely as a will instead that will is acting as immortality for the dragon to reborn.
Click to expand...
How True Dragons reincarnated is not explained. It is the Great Sage who says that Veldora will reincarnate in the scan.
Veldora cannot know this because her memory has been deleted. .

Therefore, the reason why True Dragons are immortal as long as their will exists is that they can create a new material body for themselves as long as their will exists.

So there isn't problem with its applicability.
 
CodeCCLL said:
How True Dragons reincarnated is not explained. It is the Great Sage who says that Veldora will reincarnate in the scan.
Veldora cannot know this because her memory has been deleted. .

Therefore, the reason why True Dragons are immortal as long as their will exists is that they can create a new material body for themselves as long as their will exists.

So there isn't problem with its applicability.
Click to expand...
Are you saying Will = Spiritual Form?
 
DeusExMachine001 said:
What I am trying to say is , we gave them scans they took what they want from the scans and slowly changed it then it became whole diffrent thing, that's why Thunderian didn't able too keep up with the CRT.
Click to expand...
ashen said:
So someone think he can reword to have a concrétisation of what the change will be if applied ?
Click to expand...
Your comments ain't helpful. Simply provide a whole context without any of those remarks. The comparsion can be contested and seen which one is reliable.

Also no ashen, if there is scan manipulation, report the user.
 
Holy will of nature literally still refers to this:
ImmortalDread said:
"Holy Will of Nature" suggests that the dragon race, which was able to prosper and trace its origins back to this one ancestor dragon, is seen as an embodiment of the natural order or will of the world.
Click to expand...
Unless I miss some context or the scan is not finished yet, this is nowhere AE type 1.
 
ImmortalDread said:
Your comments ain't helpful. Simply provide a whole context without any of those remarks. The comparsion can be contested and seen which one is reliable.

Also no ashen, if there is scan manipulation, report the user.
Click to expand...
No i mean if everyone agree to make an exemple to what it would look like if we change it to what we are talking about, exemple :

limited abstract existence (type 1; spiritual life form are… ect)

you understand ?
 
" What I am trying to say is , we gave them scans they took what they want from the scans and slowly changed it then it became whole diffrent thing, that's why Thunderian didn't able too keep up with the CRT. "

I didn't say anything about maniplation here , you just took whatever you want from the message and assume.

dont forget ,assumptions makes -- out of you...
 
DeusExMachine001 said:
" What I am trying to say is , we gave them scans they took what they want from the scans and slowly changed it then it became whole diffrent thing, that's why Thunderian didn't able too keep up with the CRT. "

I didn't say anything about maniplation here , you just took whatever you want from the message and assume.

dont forget ,assumptions makes -- out of you...
Click to expand...
DeusExMachine001 said:
You guys Maniplated the scans to much , I think you guys need to show us the parts where you disagree ( The scans so we can prove it to you) because other people who came to thread after this much message is straight going to Tought our statements are same with the scans which is wrong.
Click to expand...
^^^
 
DeusExMachine001 said:
" What I am trying to say is , we gave them scans they took what they want from the scans and slowly changed it then it became whole diffrent thing, that's why Thunderian didn't able too keep up with the CRT. "

I didn't say anything about maniplation here , you just took whatever you want from the message and assume.

dont forget ,assumptions makes -- out of you...
Click to expand...
"slowly changed it" is the manipulation. You don't need to explicitely say that.
 
Georredannea15 said:
Bruh I guess I'm late to the party but I really don't see a Type 2 concept here. At least it seems illogical to me. Also, this abstraction seems to be limited. (Did I miss something? Correct me if I'm wrong please)
Click to expand...
Thanks for understanding

Yeah even Above staff said it's limited abstraction even Code and other supporters agree with that.

Currently we are talking about CM type 2 for Holy will. I will try to reply for above messages tomorrow.

.
 
EldemadeDityjon said:
Thanks for understanding

Yeah even Above staff said it's limited abstraction even Code and other supporters agree with that.

Currently we are talking about CM type 2 for Holy will. I will try to reply for above messages tomorrow.

.
Click to expand...
Thanks, are there any staff members agree or disagree with the Type 2 concept? I'm too lazy to read. 🗿🙏
 
EldemadeDityjon said:
^^^
Click to expand...
Thats my old comment I sent a 2. comment after that which shows what I am trying to say and what you did right here is basically what I am trying to say you didnt care about my second comment an straight went for my first comment because you knew what I was trying to say so you didn't Answered my second comment.
 
Last edited:
Will=spiritual body i think.

From the scan i posted above it says this

As the Great Sage explained, there were three types of topological forms in the world: astral bodies, the weakest form that surrounds the soul; spiritual bodies, which can form a base upon which to build one’s internal force; and material bodies, those directly connected with this world. The human body is the combination of all three forms.
A high-level elemental is nothing more than a mass of energy that gains sentience. In other words, it uses the “heart” protected by its astral body to control its spiritual one, you could say.
This also applied to draconic races like Veldora, but in his case, he not only had a spiritual body, but he had a material one made from matter in the local area that he could freely control. High-level elementals didn’t have that kind of power, so when they left the spiritual world, their energy would disperse, and they would disappear. This is the fate that awaited any type of spirit-based life-form in the physical world, including angels and demons.
To keep their energy from fading away, they must either find a physical receptacle to form a pact with or a way to physically incarnate themselves. That, in essence, was what
made the material body so important in this world.-Volume 4, Chapter 7
Click to expand...
The spiritual body forms the base from which to build one's internal force

The spiritual body records and keeps thoughts

A soul is a consciousness, by definition, but that alone didn’t provide the consciousness any way to express itself. It still needed an astral body to operate upon and begin the thought process—but that wasn’t
enough, either, since any thoughts produced would just dissipate into the wind. That’s where the spiritual body came in, to record and keep those thoughts captive. Even that was still a virtual memory, though, not any kind of permanent storage—and so we come to the material body.
If one had enough mental fortitude, they could recover all their memories even if their brain was permanently damaged. The fact that you saw spiritual life-forms among the monsters was proof enough of that. But if the spirit is damaged, that likely wounds the astral body deeply, even if the brain is left intact. If that wound reaches the soul, resurrection is no longer possible.-Volume 5, Chapter 3
Click to expand...

The reason spiritual life forms can think/exist as a soul is cause the spiritual body has thoughts, and they don't need material body for that. So their "will" would be in the spiritual body

Holy Will of Nature sounds like something different though, wasn't paying attention to that argument, but True Dragons are the highest spiritual lifeforms, and spirits below them embody the laws of nature.

A soul in Slime is information, would have to search for that specific scan, but it's already a thing that's accepted, and as i already posted above spiritual lifeforms can exist as souls, and stated to be information, and everything in the world is information, and spiritual lifeforms embody the laws of the world.
 
I don't think so.

Based on the context provided, "The will of nature" appears to be referring to the innate, natural order or design of the world. The passage suggests that the True Dragons, which are powerful beings, initially reproduced with humans. However, their offspring deprived them of most of their power. As a result, the True Dragons lost their power and exploded into pieces. Despite this, they were successful in obtaining physical bodies in the world. These dragons became the ancestors of the dragon race.

The passage goes on to state that future generations referred to this natural order or design as the "Holy Will of Nature." This suggests that the dragon race, which was able to prosper and trace its origins back to this one ancestor dragon, is seen as an embodiment of the natural order or will of the world..
 
Celestial_Pegasus said:
The reason spiritual life forms can think/exist as a soul is cause the spiritual body has thoughts, and they don't need material body for that. So their "will" would be in the spiritual body

Holy Will of Nature sounds like something different though, wasn't paying attention to that argument, but True Dragons are the highest spiritual lifeforms, and spirits below them embody the laws of nature.

A soul in Slime is information, would have to search for that specific scan, but it's already a thing that's accepted, and as i already posted above spiritual lifeforms can exist as souls, and stated to be information, and everything in the world is information, and spiritual lifeforms embody the laws of the world.
Click to expand...
If we go with will = spirit = info

Then holy will could refer to a higher level of info rather than concept in this case.
If everything in the world is also information then that would includes the laws? Which is also what True Dragons base on the scans i've read.

Then at this point im pretty sure they should just flat out have full abstract as info as for how this holy will of nature and source of the world. What really leads us to think they are concepts when it was established that everything in the world is information and there are merely varying levels of these? Because these characteristic can also be attributed to info type 2 but we default to concept most of the time unless special circumstances (which is that everything in the world is info and whatnot)

This has been my main problem so far. Because although they would qualify for concept we are already led and told that things are info so for a concept to be actually listed we would need an explicit thing that concept exist within info and info are simply higher.

At this point im quiet confused on how to go with this
 
After abandoning his physical body, he was reborn and had become a full spiritual life form. His race was called a ‘flame spirit oni,’ a kind of divine spirit. Like the ‘True Dragons,’ he had both the holy and demonic attributes, so he could also be called a holy demonic spirit. A divine monster spirit was a subordinate existence of the ‘True Dragon’ race. Like the ‘True Dragons,’ they had various attributes, and fire was considered to be a major attribute. Attributes were the laws that governed the principles of this world, and there were eight kinds in total.

There were the natural attributes of ‘earth,’ ‘water,’ ‘fire,’ and ‘wind’ and the attribute of ‘space.’ These were known as the five major attributes. It was said that fire was strong against earth, water was strong against fire, wind was strong against water, space was strong against wind, and earth was strong against space. The earth was consumed by fire, fire was extinguished by water, water was dissipated by wind, wind was isolated by space, and space was indexed only by the earth. In such a way, the five major attributes were in a conflicting relationship.

In addition to these five attributes, there were two opposing attributes, ‘light’ and ‘darkness,’ along with the attribute of ‘time,’ which was not bound by anything and reigned over all attributes. Fire spirits such as Ifrit were also bound by these physical laws. Or rather, spirits were the embodiment of the laws of the world, and they also had eight attributes. It seems that ‘light’ and ‘darkness’ were special, and light was derived from angels while darkness was derived from demons. It seems that angels and demons, which were confirmed now, could also be called spirits if we traced back their origins.

Diablo and others might be able to say more about this, but it didn’t make much sense to me, and I was not particularly interested in knowing about it. The important thing was that there were eight kinds of divine spirits, and they were higher than normal spirits. The highest among them were the ‘True Dragons,’ of which only four had been confirmed as of now. Veldanava, the ‘Star King Dragon,’ I think, had the attributes of space and earth, associated with stars. Perhaps, there may have been many more attributes.

‘Frost Dragon’ Velzard was likely water-based.

‘Scorch Dragon’ Velgrynd was most certainly fire-based.

And our ‘Veldora-san,’ apart from water and wind, could even control space. He was a surprisingly great guy.

In short, the ‘True Dragon’ race was the pinnacle of the divine spirits. And Benimaru had evolved into a being similar to that of a ‘True Dragon.’ Although a ‘flame spirit oni’ was a spiritual life form, he had a physical body so that he could influence the material world. It appeared that his lifespan had no boundaries, so it would not be an exaggeration to call him a divine oni.



His race was called a ‘flame spirit oni,’ a kind of divine spirit. Like the ‘True Dragons,’ he had both the holy and demonic attributes, so he could also be called a holy demonic spirit. A divine monster spirit was a subordinate existence of the ‘True Dragon’ race. Like the ‘True Dragons,’ they had various attributes, and fire was considered to be a major attribute. Attributes were the laws that governed the principles of this world
Click to expand...

Fire spirits such as Ifrit were also bound by these physical laws. Or rather, spirits were the embodiment of the laws of the world,
Click to expand...

‘True Dragons,’ of which only four had been confirmed as of now. Veldanava, the ‘Star King Dragon,’ I think, had the attributes of space and earth, associated with stars. Perhaps, there may have been many more attributes.

‘Frost Dragon’ Velzard was likely water-based.

‘Scorch Dragon’ Velgrynd was most certainly fire-based.

And our ‘Veldora-san,’ apart from water and wind, could even control space. He was a surprisingly great guy.

In short, the ‘True Dragon’ race was the pinnacle of the divine spirits. And Benimaru had evolved into a being similar to that of a ‘True Dragon.’ Although a ‘flame spirit oni’ was a spiritual life form, he had a physical body so that he could influence the material world.
Click to expand...
Vol 14- ch 4
 
CodeCCLL said:
No. Will, (Holy Will Of Nature ), (Source of The World) = True Dragons.
Also, True Dragons are the Highest Level Spiritual Lifeforms.
Click to expand...
It seems CP has different POV.
Celestial_Pegasus said:
Will=spiritual body i think.

From the scan i posted above it says this


The spiritual body forms the base from which to build one's internal force

The spiritual body records and keeps thoughts



The reason spiritual life forms can think/exist as a soul is cause the spiritual body has thoughts, and they don't need material body for that. So their "will" would be in the spiritual body

Holy Will of Nature sounds like something different though, wasn't paying attention to that argument, but True Dragons are the highest spiritual lifeforms, and spirits below them embody the laws of nature.

A soul in Slime is information, would have to search for that specific scan, but it's already a thing that's accepted, and as i already posted above spiritual lifeforms can exist as souls, and stated to be information, and everything in the world is information, and spiritual lifeforms embody the laws of the world.
Click to expand...
I am kinda lost now because this is the confusion i am facing. Information type 2 already covers Laws too. So is this Ok to give Conceptual Manipulation without any other statements. Because everything in Tensura is composed of information type 2 which also provides Concepts level abilities.

Because what I understand their Abstraction and Existence comes from information type 2. So isn't this information type 2 than CM type 2 existence?
 
EldemadeDityjon said:
It seems CP has different POV.
Click to expand...
I don't know if Will is mentioned for other Spiritual Life Forms other than True Dragons.For example, Primordial Demons like Diablo are also High Level Spiritual Life Forms. But as far as I remember, phrases like "They exist only with Will" were never used for Primordial Demons as they were used for True Dragons.I think this is something unique to True Dragons.So I think for all Spiritual Life Formssaying Spiritual Body = Will doesn't make much sense.
 
CodeCCLL said:
I don't know if Will is mentioned for other Spiritual Life Forms other than True Dragons.For example, Primordial Demons like Diablo are also High Level Spiritual Life Forms. But as far as I remember, phrases like "They exist only with Will" were never used for Primordial Demons as they were used for True Dragons.I think this is something unique to True Dragons.So I think for all Spiritual Life Formssaying Spiritual Body = Will doesn't make much sense.
Click to expand...
Ok. Thanks. Can you tell me does true dragons existed before the world or born after world came into existence?
 
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