Pokémon Types: Establishing Standards

[FinePoint]

I'm aware, but as you said, Dark Type Darkness ≠ Ghost Type Darkness.

And thus Pokémon verse Shadow is more linked to Ectoplasm than Darkness imo.

I don't personally see why two types can't be assigned to the same wiki ability if that happens to be most accurate.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I'm aware, but as you said, Dark Type Darkness ≠ Ghost Type Darkness.

And thus Pokémon verse Shadow is more linked to Ectoplasm than Darkness imo.

Dark type darkness isn't the same because ghost type darkness doesn't have evil in it. So every shadow in the pokemon world is made of ectoplasm? Sounds funny af

 

[StrymULTRA]

If y'all want to make ot Darkness, because Dark Types resists Darkness but Ghost Types are weak to their own type (aka still weak to Darkness) then ok.

If we really want to go like this, to make it even more distinct, I'd say that:

Dark Type = Darkness + Unholy

Ghost Type = Darkness + Ectoplasm

Dark Type being also Unholy fits them being weak to Fairy/Holy too.

 

[StrymULTRA]

And ofc it should be specified in profiles that they're weak/resistant to both.

 

[Lou_change]

Fighting type is Chi Manipulation

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Yeah, and also resistance to martial arts energy. Only an in verse resistance so it should be worded as Chi manipulation and fighting type moves

 

[Arceus0x]

I'mma call bs on every claim above. Just let them have resistance to elemental attacks they resist and weakness to elemental attacks they are weak to. Unless these fellas can prove that all fighting types is chi manip and all ghost types are ectoplasm manip then i ain't buying it.

 

[Lou_change]

The abilities are literally fighting and ghost energy.

 

[Arceus0x]

The abilities are literally fighting and ghost energy.

yes, but clearly not chi manip or ectoplasm manip, they're their own type of energy

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I'mma call bs on every claim above. Just let them have resistance to elemental attacks they resist and weakness to elemental attacks they are weak to. Unless these fellas can prove that all fighting types is chi manip and all ghost types are ectoplasom manip then i ain't buying it.

Not every attack has to be chi and ectoplasm. Why would ectoplasm in pokemon be different from other ectoplasm?

Also, I think we can now apply the martial arts resistance changes. Nobody agrees to "resistance to martial arts"

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody properly explain what we need to evaluate here, along with listing who have agreed with what, please? I can try to call for staff and knowledgeable members afterwards.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Now here is the list of opinions for the second issue: which types are considered too strange or inconsistent (As far as I could tell, obviously).

SamanPatou: Made the first post listing his choice of types to exclude: Fighting, Bug, Normal, Ghost, Psychic, Dragon, Flying, and Fairy.

Arceus0x: Said Steel and Psychic (As 50/50?) should also be added to the list of excluded types.

Antoniofer: Made an inclusive list rather an exclusive one, including: Fire, Ice, Electric, Psychic, Ghost, Dark, Poison, Ground, Rock, Flying, Grass, Fairy.

Lou_change: Argued that Steel Type should be succinctly covered by Resistance to Metal Manipulation.

Rez: Agreed with Lou-change that Steel Type is fine to include.

XXXKINGXX69: Argued Steel, Normal, Fighting should be included. Also Bug and Fairy, listed many specifics here.

DragonGamerZ913: Argued Dragon type should be Energy Projection.

Amelia_Lonelyheart: Argued Dragon type should be Magic.

GyroNutz: Argued that Ghost, Flying, should be included as Ectoplasm/Air Manipulation.

Bobsican: Seemed to support Dark being included.

Imaginym: Pointed out many inconsistencies with Psychic, Ghost, Dark, and Fairy type moves.

FinePoint: I agree with SamanPatou's list, except I think Flying and Fairy can probably be included as Air/Magic. Iffy about Ghost and Psychic, ultimately neutral on them.

StrymULTRA: Argues Fighting and Psychic should be excluded. Also that rock and Ground should be more explicitly separated. Argues Fairy should be Holy Manipulation and Ghost should be Ectoplasm Manipulation.

Can somebody properly explain what we need to evaluate here, along with listing who have agreed with what, please? I can try to call for staff and knowledgeable members afterwards.

That is the evaluation. As of now, I think that removal of resistance to martial arts is fine to be applied to Pokemon profiles as it is uncontroversial and nobody disagrees

 

[Lou_change]

yes, but clearly not chi manip or ectoplasm manip, they're their own type of energy

Prove it every fighting type move glows with fighting energy aura in Pokémon is life energy even if not every fighting type move is chi some are and that still gives a resistance similar logic can be applied to ghost types.

 

[FinePoint]

Can somebody properly explain what we need to evaluate here, along with listing who have agreed with what, please? I can try to call for staff and knowledgeable members afterwards.

Below is a list as far as I was able to gather for the first issue. It's obviously incomplete, but I wanted to avoid speaking for people if their opinion didn't seem very clear to me.

People who have expressed a desire to only grant resistances to the element of a type's attacks:
Antoniofer first made this argument,
KingTempest (Suggested the second option at first, but then agreed with Antoniofer's analysis),
QuasiYuri (Also agreed with Antoniofer's assessment),
ChosenOrDeath (Liked Antoniofer's post),
Rez (Argued along the lines that resisting a specific move like "spore" only granted resistance to grass-based sleep inducement),
FinePoint (I personally agree with this option after thinking it over)

People who have expressed a desire to grant resistances based on every possible effect of a type's attacks:
The_Axiom_of_Virgo (Suggested several resistances based on specific attacks),
Lou_change (Argued Antoniofer's stance ignored the context of attacks being infused with elements),
XXKINGXX69 (Suggested several resistances based on specific attacks),

Everyone else has not explicitly expressed an opinion on this.
Arceus0x has been very active in this thread, but most of his debate seems centered around the issue of which types are too inconsistent, so I didn't feel comfortable adding him to this list. I'll make a different list for that issue later. It's worth noting that his first few posts did want to split Psychic into several resistances, but his posts were all based on status moves which were debunked as not being resisted based on type.

Now here is the list of opinions for the second issue: which types are considered too strange or inconsistent (As far as I could tell, obviously).

SamanPatou: Made the first post listing his choice of types to exclude: Fighting, Bug, Normal, Ghost, Psychic, Dragon, Flying, and Fairy.

Arceus0x: Said Steel and Psychic (As 50/50?) should also be added to the list of excluded types. Disagrees with Ghost and Fighting.

Antoniofer: Made an inclusive list rather an exclusive one, including: Fire, Ice, Electric, Psychic, Ghost, Dark, Poison, Ground, Rock, Flying, Grass, Fairy.

Lou_change: Argued that Steel Type should be succinctly covered by Resistance to Metal Manipulation.

Rez: Agreed with Lou-change that Steel Type is fine to include.

XXXKINGXX69: Argued Steel, Normal, Fighting should be included. Also Bug and Fairy, listed many specifics here.

DragonGamerZ913: Argued Dragon type should be Energy Projection.

Amelia_Lonelyheart: Argued Dragon type should be Magic.

GyroNutz: Argued that Ghost, Flying, should be included as Ectoplasm/Air Manipulation.

Bobsican: Seemed to support Dark being included.

Imaginym: Pointed out many inconsistencies with Psychic, Ghost, Dark, and Fairy type moves.

FinePoint: I agree with SamanPatou's list, except I think Flying and Fairy can probably be included as Air/Magic. Iffy about Ghost and Psychic, ultimately neutral on them.

StrymULTRA: Argues Fighting and Psychic should be excluded. Also that rock and Ground should be more explicitly separated. Argues Fairy should be Holy Manipulation and Ghost should be Ectoplasm Manipulation.

You already called people, but most of them didn't respond.
We need to reach a consensus on the quoted issues and draft an official standard on a blog or something.

 

[Antoniofer]

Don't quite sure what is being discussed now, but the most accepted alternative was to simply write " damage reduction against x type" (option 1.5) in the profiles, as types does no properly cover general kind of powers. I personally feels we are being pretty generous of of pkm typing works, like, except with few exceptions, those are generally dismissed, at least in the anime, and even though Pokémon is a brand with 25 years, it seems like it never bothered in explained how typing advantage/disadvantage works.

 

[Arceus0x]

Prove it every fighting type move glows with fighting energy aura in Pokémon is life energy even if not every fighting type move is chi some are and that still gives a resistance similar logic can be applied to ghost types.

X is similar to Y but that doesn't mean that X is Y. They glow, oh boy, what move doesn't glow? Freaking magnitude makes feet glow, doesn't mean the ground types have chi manip. Aura only has like 1-2 moves out of a hundred something fightig type moves.
Ghost types follow logic even less.

 

[FinePoint]

Don't quite sure what is being discussed now, but the most accepted alternative was to simply write " damage reduction against x type" (option 1.5) in the profiles, as types does no properly cover general kind of powers. I personally feels we are being pretty generous of of pkm typing works, like, except with few exceptions, those are generally dismissed, at least in the anime, and even though Pokémon is a brand with 25 years, it seems like it never bothered in explained how typing advantage/disadvantage works.

I wouldn't say that's the most accepted, just the basic premise of 1.5
There's been some argument against damage reduction too.

 

[Lou_change]

X is similar to Y but that doesn't mean that X is Y. They glow, oh boy, what move doesn't glow? Freaking magnitude makes feet glow, doesn't mean the ground types have chi manip. Aura only has like 1-2 moves out of a hundred something fightig type moves.
Ghost types follow logic even less.

It still would be resistanced as part of fighting type meaning everything weak to fighting is weak to chi and everything resistance to fighting would resist chi to and we still need to decide the nature of moves (we should probably make that it’s own crt as to include status moves)
And yeah all moves glow however only fighting moves glow with fighting type energy.

 

[Arceus0x]

It still would be resistanced as part of fighting type meaning everything weak to fighting is weak to chi and everything resistance to fighting would resist chi to and we still need to decide the nature of moves (we should probably make that it’s own crt as to include status moves)
And yeah all moves glow however only fighting moves glow with fighting type energy.

Fighting type energy is the energy of the plate. It doesn't mean it is aura and doesn't automatically make aura part of the resistances you have.
Equalizing all the chi with all of fighting types is wack, this isn't a vsmatch with energy equalization this is a crt of an ability only used by pokemon and some humans, the same humans who came from pokemon

 

[Lou_change]

Fighting type energy is the energy of the plate. It doesn't mean it is aura and doesn't automatically make aura part of the resistances you have

Both your statements here are correct dark and fairy aura prove that but aura in lucario’s context is life energy or chi it still might not be what is behind drain punch but it is a sub part of the fighting type.

 

[Antvasima]

You already called people, but most of them didn't respond.
We need to reach a consensus on the quoted issues and draft an official standard on a blog or something.

Okay. Noted.

That is the evaluation. As of now, I think that removal of resistance to martial arts is fine to be applied to Pokemon profiles as it is uncontroversial and nobody disagrees

So is it fine to apply this revision for the moment then?

Also, what remains to be decided afterwards?

 

[Lou_change]

So is it fine to apply this revision for the moment then?

Also, what remains to be decided afterwards?

Removing resistance to martial arts should be fine and after that decide what types are useable and what resistances/damage reduction they give.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Noted. Thank you for the reply.

 

[FinePoint]

Okay. Noted.

So is it fine to apply this revision for the moment then?

Also, what remains to be decided afterwards?

If it's going to be difficult to get more specific input on this thread, then we could certainly do the following:

Draft a page which includes every type NOT debated, meaning nothing in this list:
Fighting, Bug, Normal, Ghost, Psychic, Dragon, Flying, Fairy, Dark
(I'm thinking it either goes in a blog, or the verse page or something. Somewhere we can link people to when new Pokémon come out.)

Include only the base elements to start.

Then, once we have that, I could make a separate CRT which focuses solely on filling out the rest (if at all).

 

[Imaginym]

Honestly, add me to the "weird" opinions. Imo the types you wrote are right, except some:

• Fighting: Should be excluded as it's really nothing more than just punches and Energy Projection. "Resistance to Martial Arts" doesn't make sense, and to Aura either as Aura in fiction greatly varies.
• Rock and Ground being under the same ability feels wrong honestly. Rock types are weak against Ground ones, they'd be weaker to their own power, when they take regular damage from their own type. Same with Ground, only that they resist Rock. Writing a thing like "Ground-based Earth Manip/Rock-based Earth Manip" should specify it tbh. I say this also because Flying Type exists, it'd be pretty weird if is immune and weak at the same time to Earth manip.
• Psychic: Excluded. It does a lot more stuff than Telekinesis. Telekinesis is a move that works on them, and the aforementioned Hex debunks scug. Not to mention that includes also energy projection moves like Psywave.

To its credit, a lot of Psychic-type moves are "Psychic Energy". (Psyshock, Psycho Cut, Psychobreak.) So that may be closer to consistent for the type.
Maybe a "Possibly Resistance to X" or such could be ascribed to a type in such cases, where we aren't sure if that isn't a consistent enough part of the typing?

• Ghost: Shadow Manip is a no-no. It's a subtype to Darkness manip, and Dark type perfectly fits for such. Ectoplasm Manipulation instead fits due to the description "energy unique to spirits/ghosts. Typically this comes in the form of beams or balls of energy that the user can charge and fire at enemies, and ignores the intangibility that is normally associated with ghosts or spirits." with the latter fitting Ghost type weakness to themselves.

I'm sure you've heard plenty of dissent, but I feel weird calling "Shadow" as Ectoplasm, though, based on Ectoplasm Manipulation's descriptions, it does seem to fit.

Although, looking at move descriptions, Shadow Claw states:
"The user slashes with a sharp claw made from shadows. Critical hits land more easily."
Shadow Sneak:
"The user extends its shadow and attacks the foe from behind. This move always goes first."
Shadow Ball, has descriptions such as:

Colo.XD

Hurls a black blob that may lower the target's Sp. Def.* Hurls a dark lump at the target. It may lower Sp. Def.*

(Only TM descriptions in Colosseum, XD, & Ruby, Sapphire & Emerald use the "black blob" in move descriptions & "dark lump" in TM descriptions of the move, Fire Red & Leaf Green & every other game onwards always call it a "shadowy blob".)

XYORAS SMUSUMPE SwSh

The user hurls a shadowy blob at the target. This may also lower the target's Sp. Def stat.

Shadow Punch:
"The user throws a punch from the shadows. This attack never misses."
(Although, how the part about Shadow Punch not missing is worded varies significantly from game to game.)
Shadow Force (Shadow Dive in Japanese.):
"The user disappears, then strikes the target on the next turn. This move hits even if the target protects itself."
& Decidueye's exclusive move, Spirit Shackle(Named as "かげぬい Shadow Stitching" in Japanese.):
"The user attacks while simultaneously stitching the target's shadow to the ground to prevent the target from escaping."

I'm not sure where the case for "energy unique to spirits/ghosts" comes in, since they're manipulating Shadows, AKA, Darkness, & Decidueye's move implies to the contrary, since it can be used on non-Ghost-types (Normal types excepted.), & those probably don't have Ectoplasm. But on the other hand, most things DO have a Shadow.
I'd say Darkness Manipulation is more consistent for Ghost-types, but I kinda see a case for both, maybe with 1 or the other having a "Possibly".

I also recall Rez making a somewhat convincing case for Ghost-type having Curse Manipulation due to Curse, maybe Hex, Poltergeist, Destiny Bond, Never-Ending Nightmare, & Nightmare. May be worth considering.

Also, I went over this in my last post, but DARKNESS MANIPULATION IS NOT CONSISTENT FOR DARK-TYPES.
Dark-type's Japanese name means "Evil".
I recall checking every Dark-type damaging move, & here are the ones that came closest to Darkness Manipulation.

Dark has:
Dark Pulse
"The user releases a horrible aura imbued with dark thoughts. It may also make the target flinch."
Starter Eevee's Baddy Bad, a Dark-type move, is Light Manipulation, as it's stated it puts up a wondrous wall of light, which does the effects of Reflect.
Galarian Moltres's Fiery Wrath: "The user transforms its wrath into a fire-like aura to attack. This may also make opposing Pokémon flinch."
Lash Out: "The user lashes out to vent its frustration toward the target. If its stats were lowered during the turn, the power of this move is doubled."
Max Darkness, the Japanese name of which seems to use a word for "evil" (Max Darkness (Japanese: ダイアーク Dai Dark); Note the play on "aku" for "evil".
Night Daze says "The user lets loose a pitch-black shock wave at its target. It may also lower the target's accuracy." & Zorua, Zoroark & Lunala can learn it.

So we have Dark Pulse, a Light Manipulation move only for Starter Eevee, a Legendary's Signature Move that's closer to Aura+Rage Power, another Rage Power move, & I guess Night Daze qualifies, but only 3 Pokemon can learn it, 1 of which is Lunala, a Legendary/Ultra Beast, & likely learns it not for being a Dark-type (It's a Psychic/Ghost type.), but for its association with the moon/night time.

By contrast, other Dark-type moves include Foul Play (Using the foe's strength against it.), Pursuit (Chasing retreating foes.), Sucker Punch (Ambushing.), Feint Attack (Getting up close "disarmingly".), Throat Chop, Beat Up (Ganging up.), Bite, Crunch, Darkest, Fling, Knock Off, Power Trip (Boasting one's strength, then attacking.), Thief, & a few signature attacks.

Seriously, IDK where you get the idea that Dark-type is consistent for Darkness Manipulation. It has a few candidates, but they're the exception & most of them are more signature moves.

• Fairy: Magic is a no-no for the same reason why Fighting shouldn't associated with Aura. Magic in fiction literally means anything. Holy Manipulation fits instead, as given the description "It is a very broad term that has a variety of applications and frequently intersects with Light Manipulation, Healing, Magic, and other abilities generally considered to fall under the "good" or "lawful". Due to its nature, it is often extremely effective against those deemed "evil" or "monstrous", serving as a weakness to many characters under those categories." and it fits both, as Fairy Type moves have this kind of stuff like Magic (which is included from default), Light Manipulation (Moonbeam, Dazzling Gleam, etc) or Healing (Moonlight or Draining Kiss), and they indeed are supereffective against Dark Types, which is straight up called "Evil type" in Japanese.

Gonna repost why I disagree about Fairy being Holy Manipulation:

Also, IDK why people think Fairy would qualify for Holy Manipulation.

Play Rough is playful violence, Disarming Voice is Empathic Manipulation, Life Manipulation (Or Absorption?) via Draining Kiss, whatever Guardian of Alola, Nature Madness's, & Max Starfall are, Spirit Break (Grimmsnarl's Signature Move. "Soul Crush" in Japanese.), & whatever G-Max Smite is, & whatever Moonblast (Which says "borrowing the power of the moon".) is.

Heck, considering there's Aromatic Mist, Fairy Wind, Misty Terrain, Misty Explosion, Sparkly Swirl (Described as "The user attacks the target by wrapping it with a whirlwind of an overpowering scent.".), & Strange Steam, there's a case for Air/Wind/Mist/Moisture or whatever Manipulation that is.

Draining Kiss is kinda Healing, but....
"The user steals the target's energy with a kiss. The user's HP is restored by over half of the damage taken by the target."
That sounds more Unholy than Holy.

Moonlight.... The only time it's had more explanation about what it does than healing HP & being affected by the weather is in Stadium 2: "Allows HP to be restored by the moonlight. In battle, half the user's max HP is restored."

IDK if Nature's Madness or Guardian of Alola fall under it.
Disarming Voice attacking with Empathic Manipulation doesn't seem that holy.
It also has like, 5 or 6 moves that are Mist related, as I pointed out.

So, the evidence in support of Fairy type = Holy Manipulation is....
An energy-draining move, being healed by moonlight, attacking with "a powerful flash" (Dazzling Gleam), whatever "borrowing the power of the moon", & if we count Light of Ruin, Life/Energy Manipulation & another instance of Life Manipulation, maybe Technology Manipulation, since that draws power from the Ultimate Weapon.

& there's whatever Nature's Madness/Guardian of Alola are. (Life Manipulation? Earth Manipulation?)

I'd say Fairy being Holy is more of a "Possibly", & would lean on whatever Manipulation "Mist" is more than Holy Manipulation.

 

[Antvasima]

If it's going to be difficult to get more specific input on this thread, then we could certainly do the following:

Draft a page which includes every type NOT debated, meaning nothing in this list:
Fighting, Bug, Normal, Ghost, Psychic, Dragon, Flying, Fairy, Dark
(I'm thinking it either goes in a blog, or the verse page or something. Somewhere we can link people to when new Pokémon come out.)

Include only the base elements to start.

Then, once we have that, I could make a separate CRT which focuses solely on filling out the rest (if at all).

I suppose that might be an idea. What do the rest of you think?

 

[Imaginym]

I suppose that might be an idea. What do the rest of you think?

I think it seems like a decent idea, although I think it might be good to ensure the reasoning for explaining why some types are excluded would be obligatory to include in such a blog.
Also, ideally, it can be updated in the event our standards change. In this regard, FinePoint is at least 1 user I trust in this regard, since they seem to regularly & dedicatedly participate; Users who do not regularly participate or show investment in the contents of this CRT, are, in my opinion, likely to be less reliable to maintain such a blog's up-to-date-ness.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that FinePoint can probably do so then.

 

[FinePoint]

Okay. I will start working on a sandbox tomorrow.
Unfortunately, it's very late for me at the current moment.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[Imaginym]

Okay. I will start working on a sandbox tomorrow.
Unfortunately, it's very late for me at the current moment.

It's important, but no rush from me. Take your time as you need it; "Real life & your health comes before VSBW" & all that. : )

 

[FinePoint]

Okay. No problem.

The sandbox and the thread have both been created.

You may call supporters there and close this thread if you wish.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will do so.