Pokémon Types: Establishing Standards

[QuasiYuri]

Meh. Thunder Wave just doesn't work on Ground Types despite it's just an effect and doesn't damage.

Yeah but that's because it is electric, not because it is paralysis inducement.

It's the same difference as smth like Metal Sound and Hyper Voice.

What matters isn't that it is Sound Manipulation, but what is the origin of it.

As such, I would give anything but "Damage Reduction/Resistance against [x] based attacks".

 

[FinePoint]

As such, I would give anything but "Damage Reduction/Resistance against [x] based attacks".

Did you mean wouldn't?

 

[QuasiYuri]

Did you mean wouldn't?

Yeah. Wrote a bit too fast.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

You played yourself here as Charizard still had visible damage. It's not resistance, just damage reduction.

Still resisted it, he didn't take that much damage. Why is it only damage reduction just because it reduces damage? It could be taking less damage because of a resistance

Still disagree with making them resist the specific effects rather than the source.

Why?

 

[Lou_change]

Is that really necessary? It's kinda common knowledge that even being "super resistant" (x4 resistance) =/= immune

That has never been a requirement for a resistance it has never been like that it is still a resistance just not a super major one.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Still resisted it, he didn't take that much damage. Why is it only damage reduction just because it reduces damage? It could be taking less damage because of a resistance


Why?

I explained why in my last comment already.

 

[Antoniofer]

One may interprete Damage Reduction as Damage Resistance, in some way they are synonyms, but for the purposes of indexing in this wiki we use resistance for other things, so using damage reduction for halving damage is the way to go.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

One may interprete Damage Reduction as Damage Resistance, in some way they are synonyms, but for the purposes of indexing in this wiki we use resistance for other things, so using damage reduction for halving damage is the way to go.

They halve damage because of resistance

 

[Antoniofer]

Normal: Sound, Empathic Manipulation, Existence Erasure and Spatial manipulation
Fire: Lava and Heat (self explanatory)
Fighting Type: Chi manipulation
Fairy: Soul Manipulation

Water: Alkaline Manipulation (read G-Max Kingler's entry)
Grass: Life Manipulation and Absorption, Soul Manipulation (One's life force is the same thing as their soul), Acid Manipulation
Poison: Acid Manipulation (Even Toxic, which doesn't do much damage, can corrode things), Fragrance Manipulation (G-Max Malodor too)
Electric: Absorption

See, we can't do these kind of things due reason stated above; like, if you gave fire type pkm damage reduction against sound manip due resisting bug buzz would be unaccurate since fire types are still vulnerable to other sounds attacks such snore, chatter and snarl. "But what if the reduces damage from sound attacks coming from bugs?", this is neither accurate, cuz a bug could use other sound based attacks that aren't bug buzz (such sbore or snarl) and fire types wouldn't resist it.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

See, we can't do these kind of things due reason stated above; like, if you gave fire type pkm damage reduction against sound manip due resisting bug buzz would be unaccurate since fire types are still vulnerable to other sounds attacks such snore, chatter and snarl.

Being vulnerable to other forms of sound doesn't mean you don't have a resistance to sound at all. Resisting a few forms of it is enough

and what about the others I mentioned? Like soul manipulation for fairy, same for acid for poison

 

[Antoniofer]

Being vulnerable to other forms of sound doesn't mean you don't have a resistance to sound at all. Resisting a few forms of it is enough

And this would lead to the issue: what is the type of sound the fire type resists? What makes bugg buzz differ from attacks such snort and snarl? In Pokémon the fire types (or any other types) are not resisting an specific sound attack but rather the nature of the attack (bug in this case), and since the nature of the attack is not linked to the source (i.e just cuz a bug makes an attack does not mean is bug type) then outside of pkm there's no way to known what are the attack typing of the characters beyond the main forms of energy (heat, cold and electricity).

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

Zoroark, Resistance to Telekinesis

I have one question.

 

[Antoniofer]

Does Telekinesis affect dark type pkm?

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

Just checked it, yeah.

 

[Bobsican]

We already went that it was reasonable given that Dark types are "immune" to Confusion and Psychic (the move).

 

[Arceus0x]

I believe the resistances would be fine in the case of elemental ones.
Like i said as an example, a fire type will be able to float in molten lava like i do on a cold day in a hot bath. If that's "damage reduction" and not a resistance then idk what that is.

 

[QuasiYuri]

And this would lead to the issue: what is the type of sound the fire type resists? What makes bugg buzz differ from attacks such snort and snarl? In Pokémon the fire types (or any other types) are not resisting an specific sound attack but rather the nature of the attack (bug in this case), and since the nature of the attack is not linked to the source (i.e just cuz a bug makes an attack does not mean is bug type) then outside of pkm there's no way to known what are the attack typing of the characters beyond the main forms of energy (heat, cold and electricity).

Same opinion, although I have to disagree on the "no way of knowing" point.

I think most types, if not all of them can easily be figured out as far as "source" goes.

 

[Antoniofer]

One may easily determinate if an attack from a non-pkm characters is certain types, such fire, ice, electricity, and even does like fairy, psychic, dark, etc, but for determinating if an attack is bug, metal or dragon type isn't that obvious. For example a dragon's elemental breathe from another verse can easily be identified as fire, ice, dark (depending of the dragon's breathe), but its natural weapons aren't necessary considered dragon type just because the character is a dragon (dragon type pkm can use several types of natural weaponry, but they aren't demeed dragon type just because the pkm is dragon type). This also applies to natural weapons from bugs or physical strikes from giant mechas, they aren't necessary bug and steel type (would say they aren't at all).

 

[Bobsican]

Honestly, I think the best course of action is to just not try to equalize very different things. Pokémon clearly goes by its own energy system for each type, and because of this they can't really be equalized to other verses without significant similarities (like how we handle verse equalization).

Yoshi licking a Pokémon doesn't mean that it's now using a Ghost type move (Lick, in fact the distribution of that move isn't exclusive to Ghost types), so I support option 1.5.

 

[FinePoint]

I have one question.

This is more good reason to just exclude Psychic type, but it doesn't deal damage so this shouldn't affect our ability to apply damage reduction.

It does make "resistance" more complicated for the dark types.

 

[Lou_change]

I guess damage reduction makes sense for the non elemental types.but how weaknesses work wouldn't they be damage boost against themselves now.

 

[FinePoint]

I guess damage reduction makes sense for the non elemental types.but how weaknesses work wouldn't they be damage boost against themselves now.

Well, yes. That's how it's always worked, so it makes sense for their type resistances to follow.
For example, we don't assume that fire punch on a grass type has 2x the chance to burn (that's just false), it just does 2x damage.

 

[Lou_change]

Add me to 1.5

 

[FinePoint]

Add me to 1.5

Sure thing.

It seems like every single staff supporter agrees with 1.5, so at this point I believe we can just accept that.
Which means what we need to do now is make a draft which can either be put into a blog or the verse page.

 

[FinePoint]

These are the types which are being considered for exclusion: Psychic, Fighting, Bug, Normal, Ghost, Dragon, Flying
Personally, I think Flying can at least be included, since even the physical attacks are empowered by the element.
Neutral on psychic and ghost.
Strongly against fighting, normal, bug, dragon.

 

[Lou_change]

I think ectoplasm and chi could be considered equivalents to ghost and fighting.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

And this would lead to the issue: what is the type of sound the fire type resists? What makes bugg buzz differ from attacks such snort and snarl?

Maybe it has weaker sound manipulation?

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Honestly, I think the best course of action is to just not try to equalize very different things. Pokémon clearly goes by its own energy system for each type, and because of this they can't really be equalized to other verses without significant similarities (like how we handle verse equalization).

Yoshi licking a Pokémon doesn't mean that it's now using a Ghost type move (Lick, in fact the distribution of that move isn't exclusive to Ghost types), so I support option 1.5.

Agreed, see my original comment on how "steely energy" and "fighting essence" are a thing

Normal types use a type of energy called "normal essence". I believe that pretty much every pokemon should get energy manipulation because of this. Just look at Pokemon imbuing their weapons or arms with energy when they use even normal type attacks

 

[Imaginym]

Confusion (move) & Psychic (move) are not the only damaging telekinetic Psychic-type move.
Other than that, telekinetic Psychic-type damaging moves are.... https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Glitzy_Glow_(move) (Starter Eevee only.)
Shattered Psyche, a generic Z-Move for most Psychic type moves.
There's also whatever Psychic Fangs is: "The user bites the target with its psychic capabilities." Notably, Psychic Fangs can destroy Light Screen & Reflect, which are described as "wondrous walls of light".

Besides Necrozma's 3 signature moves that are Light-based, Luster Purge (Another Legendary Signature move.) is light-based, & Psybeam is a "peculiar ray".

Among other oddities. (Synchronoise is described as a Shock Wave, Mist Ball is mist-like down (As in, presumably feathers? Latias has those??), Psywave is an "odd, hot energy wave", & moves like Psycho Cut, Psystrike, & Psyshock are "psychic power".

(Ghost-type also has Telekinesis via Poltergeist. Or it's just possession of an item?)
Astonish might be Fear Manipulation, as might be Nightmare. Night Shade is definitely, as well as Illusion Manipulation, for being a Frightful Mirage.
Funnily enough, this means Psychic-type's most certain forms of Mind Manipulation are.... Dream Eater (Dream Manipulation, but that kinda overlaps with Mind Manipulation.) & Psycho Shift, which "uses the power of suggestion" to swap status conditions.


Also, as some may know, Ghost is closer to Darkness/Shadow Manipulation than Dark.
Dark has.... Dark Pulse, I guess? & even that's described with "The user releases a horrible aura imbued with dark thoughts. It may also make the target flinch."
(Oh, & Starter Eevee's Baddy Bad, a Dark-type move, is Light Manipulation, as it's stated it puts up a wondrous wall of light, which does the effects of Reflect.)
There's Galarian Moltres's Fiery Wrath: "The user transforms its wrath into a fire-like aura to attack. This may also make opposing Pokémon flinch."
There's Lash Out: "The user lashes out to vent its frustration toward the target. If its stats were lowered during the turn, the power of this move is doubled."
There's whatever Max Darkness is, though its Japanese name seems to use a word for "evil", too, much like the Japanese name for the Dark type.
Night Daze says "The user lets loose a pitch-black shock wave at its target. It may also lower the target's accuracy." & Zorua, Zoroark & Lunala can learn it.

So about only 1, 2 or 3 Dark-type moves (Dark Pulse, & Max Darkness, & Night Daze.) seem to be Darkness Manipulation. If we looked at Fiery Wrath & Lash Out, you could argue Rage Power is almost as common in the type, but really, a lot of it is just dirty tactics. (Ambushes, feigning defeat, attacking retreating opponents, etc.)

Ghost has Shadow Punch, Shadow Sneak, Shadow Ball, Shadow Claw.... G-Max Terror, which is stepping on the foe's shadow.
Also, Shadow Force (Giratina's move.), Spectral Thief (Marshadow's move.), which is hiding in shadow....

Funnily enough, Spirit Shackle is Shadow Manipulation for stitching the foe's shadow to the ground & Shadow Bone is Soul Manipulation for attacking using a bone that has a spirit in it. Astral Barrage is also Soul Manipulation.


So yeah. Dark only has a small case for it being Darkness/Shadow Manipulation, as only a few moves qualify. Ghost has a very strong case for Shadow Manipulation, a couple of moves that are Soul Manipulation, & a little bit of Fear Manipulation.

I mostly went through Attacking Moves, mind you.


Also, IDK why people think Fairy would qualify for Holy Manipulation.

Play Rough is playful violence, Disarming Voice is Empathic Manipulation, Life Manipulation (Or Absorption?) via Draining Kiss, whatever Guardian of Alola, Nature Madness's, & Max Starfall are, Spirit Break (Grimmsnarl's Signature Move. "Soul Crush" in Japanese.), & whatever G-Max Smite is, & whatever Moonblast (Which says "borrowing the power of the moon".) is.

Heck, considering there's Aromatic Mist, Fairy Wind, Misty Terrain, Misty Explosion, Sparkly Swirl (Described as "The user attacks the target by wrapping it with a whirlwind of an overpowering scent.".), & Strange Stream, there's a case for Air/Wind/Mist/Moisture or whatever Manipulation that is.


IDK where Ectoplasm Manipulation for Ghost-types came from, but I haven't checked most of the Status Moves of the few types I've checked so far.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Confusion (move) & Psychic (move) are not the only damaging telekinetic Psychic-type move.
Other than that, telekinetic Psychic-type damaging moves are.... https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Glitzy_Glow_(move) (Starter Eevee only.)
Shattered Psyche, a generic Z-Move for most Psychic type moves.
There's also whatever Psychic Fangs is: "The user bites the target with its psychic capabilities." Notably, Psychic Fangs can destroy Light Screen & Reflect, which are described as "wondrous walls of light".

Besides Necrozma's 3 signature moves that are Light-based, Luster Purge (Another Legendary Signature move.) is light-based, & Psybeam is a "peculiar ray".

Among other oddities. (Synchronoise is described as a Shock Wave, Mist Ball is mist-like down (As in, presumably feathers? Latias has those??), Psywave is an "odd, hot energy wave", & moves like Psycho Cut, Psystrike, & Psyshock are "psychic power".

(Ghost-type also has Telekinesis via Poltergeist. Or it's just possession of an item?)
Astonish might be Fear Manipulation, as might be Nightmare. Night Shade is definitely, as well as Illusion Manipulation, for being a Frightful Mirage.
Funnily enough, this means Psychic-type's most certain forms of Mind Manipulation are.... Dream Eater (Dream Manipulation, but that kinda overlaps with Mind Manipulation.) & Psycho Shift, which "uses the power of suggestion" to swap status conditions.


Also, as some may know, Ghost is closer to Darkness/Shadow Manipulation than Dark.
Dark has.... Dark Pulse, I guess? & even that's described with "The user releases a horrible aura imbued with dark thoughts. It may also make the target flinch."
(Oh, & Starter Eevee's Baddy Bad, a Dark-type move, is Light Manipulation, as it's stated it puts up a wondrous wall of light, which does the effects of Reflect.)
There's Galarian Moltres's Fiery Wrath: "The user transforms its wrath into a fire-like aura to attack. This may also make opposing Pokémon flinch."
There's Lash Out: "The user lashes out to vent its frustration toward the target. If its stats were lowered during the turn, the power of this move is doubled."
There's whatever Max Darkness is, though its Japanese name seems to use a word for "evil", too, much like the Japanese name for the Dark type.
Night Daze says "The user lets loose a pitch-black shock wave at its target. It may also lower the target's accuracy." & Zorua, Zoroark & Lunala can learn it.

So about only 1, 2 or 3 Dark-type moves (Dark Pulse, & Max Darkness, & Night Daze.) seem to be Darkness Manipulation. If we looked at Fiery Wrath & Lash Out, you could argue Rage Power is almost as common in the type, but really, a lot of it is just dirty tactics. (Ambushes, feigning defeat, attacking retreating opponents, etc.)

Ghost has Shadow Punch, Shadow Sneak, Shadow Ball, Shadow Claw.... G-Max Terror, which is stepping on the foe's shadow.
Also, Shadow Force (Giratina's move.), Spectral Thief (Marshadow's move.), which is hiding in shadow....

Funnily enough, Spirit Shackle is Shadow Manipulation for stitching the foe's shadow to the ground & Shadow Bone is Soul Manipulation for attacking using a bone that has a spirit in it. Astral Barrage is also Soul Manipulation.


So yeah. Dark only has a small case for it being Darkness/Shadow Manipulation, as only a few moves qualify. Ghost has a very strong case for Shadow Manipulation, a couple of moves that are Soul Manipulation, & a little bit of Fear Manipulation.

I mostly went through Attacking Moves, mind you.


Also, IDK why people think Fairy would qualify for Holy Manipulation.

Play Rough is playful violence, Disarming Voice is Empathic Manipulation, Life Manipulation (Or Absorption?) via Draining Kiss, whatever Guardian of Alola, Nature Madness's, & Max Starfall are, Spirit Break (Grimmsnarl's Signature Move. "Soul Crush" in Japanese.), & whatever G-Max Smite is, & whatever Moonblast (Which says "borrowing the power of the moon".) is.

Heck, considering there's Aromatic Mist, Fairy Wind, Misty Terrain, Misty Explosion, Sparkly Swirl (Described as "The user attacks the target by wrapping it with a whirlwind of an overpowering scent.".), & Strange Stream, there's a case for Air/Wind/Mist/Moisture or whatever Manipulation that is.


IDK where Ectoplasm Manipulation for Ghost-types came from, but I haven't checked most of the Status Moves of the few types I've checked so far.

The move Hex is also telekinesis, and works on dark types. If the telekinesis is not psychic based, they could just not be immune

This doesn't mean they shouldn't get immunity to telekinesis, they still resist psychic telekinesis which is what most telekinesis is like in fiction

 

[Antvasima]

FinePoint told me that:

"Option 1.5 has been almost unanimously accepted by staff, but we still need to draft a text for the standard, find a place to post it, and discuss which types exactly should be excluded. Would you mind simply mentioning the staff which have participated for this next step? They should be listed in the op."

@SamanPatou @Elizhaa @Colonel_Krukov @ElixirBlue @KingTempest @GyroNutz @Psychomaster35 @DragonGamerZ913 @Amelia_Lonelyheart @Antoniofer @Colonel_Krukov

Would you be willing to help out with this please?

 

[Rez]

The move Hex is also telekinesis, and works on dark types. If the telekinesis is not psychic based, they could just not be immune

This doesn't mean they shouldn't get immunity to telekinesis, they still resist psychic telekinesis which is what most telekinesis is like in fiction

Hex isn't telekinesis this scene doesn't match moves description or other showing from anime, manga or games

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Hex isn't telekinesis this scene doesn't match moves description or other showing from anime, manga or games

Judging by the description it sounds like classic Damage boost with Curse manipulation (Assuming we take the description literally).

Either way that's besides the major point of this CRT.

 

[Rez]

(Assuming we take the description literally)

It qualifies for damage boost definitely I am not sure about curse manip though

If for some reason in game description isn't enough the other two usage of the move in the anime actually does involves the damage boost part

Either way that's besides the major point of this CRT.

Yeah that's true

 

[Imaginym]

I am a bit curious why oppose the option of basing Pokemon Type Standards on information about the plates? We have scans, don't we?
It would also be nice to get more info about how even seemingly mundane in nature attacks use "energy" in the anime or other mediums, even if not everyone deems it necessary.

But if we're gonna assign abilities to Pokemon types, I'm sure we all know we need to figure out which type gets what.
I feel like it may be worth determining, for the moves, what quantity of them involve which type of manipulation.
THEN, we should consider which moves or Signature Moves, especially those only used by 1 or a few Pokemon, as opposed to more widespread moves; Signature moves may be somewhat atypically typed for how Pokemon types such things to match the type or lore of the Pokemon it belongs to, & thus, may not always be accurate representations of what to associate with the type. Thus, they should hold less weight in determining what abilities to assign to what types.

 

[Rez]

Ghost-type also has Telekinesis via Poltergeist. Or it's just possession of a item.

It's classic curse manip

So about only 1, 2 or 3 Dark-type moves (Dark Pulse, & Max Darkness, & Night Daze.) seem to be Darkness Manipulation. If we looked at Fiery Wrath & Lash Out, you could argue Rage Power is almost as common in the type, but really, a lot of it is just dirty tactics. (Ambushes, feigning defeat, attacking retreating opponents, etc.)

Their are two more dark type moves that qualifies for darkness manip but I understand your point. Also disagree with astonish being fear manip. As the name and description suggests the flinching because they being surprised by their opponent not because they are afraid

Ghost has Shadow Punch, Shadow Sneak, Shadow Ball, Shadow Claw.... G-Max Terror, which is stepping on the foe's shadow.

Also, Shadow Force (Giratina's move.), Spectral Thief (Marshadow's move.), which is hiding in shadow....



Funnily enough, Spirit Shackle is Shadow Manipulation for stitching the foe's shadow to the ground & Shadow Bone is Soul Manipulation for attacking using a bone that has a spirit in it. Astral Barrage is also Soul Manipulation.

Disagree with astral barrage being soul manipulation. Agree with sprit shackle though.

So Soah. Dark only has a small case for it being Darkness/Shadow Manipulation, as only a few moves qualify. Ghost has a very strong case for Shadow Manipulation, a couple of moves that are Soul Manipulation, & a little bit of Fear Manipulation.

Shadow and curse manip actually. Ghost type has destiny bond, curse, hex, Poltergeist, nightmare (which is a mixture fear and curse), Never-Ending Nightmare etc

 

[Rez]

Among other oddities. (Synchronoise is described as a Shock Wave, Mist Ball is mist-like down (As in, presumably feathers? Latias has those??), Psywave is an "odd, hot energy wave", & moves like Psycho Cut, Psystrike, & Psyshock are "psychic power".

The term psychic doesn't refer to telekinesis alone and even then telekinesis can create shockwaves, also about psywave that's gen 4 entry the newer and older entries refer to it as psychic energy so no point in mentioning that or psyco cut, psystrike and psyshock

 

[Imaginym]

Their are two more dark type moves that qualifies for darkness manip but I understand your point.

Which moves are those?

Also disagree with astonish being fear manip. As the name and description suggests the flinching because they being surprised by their opponent not because they are afraid

Looking at the most recent description of Astonish ("The user attacks the target while shouting in a startling fashion."), although I do not entirely agree with your perspective, I feel that I can understand it.

Disagree with astral barrage being soul manipulation.

Most recent, & only description:
"The user attacks by sending a frightful amount of small ghosts at opposing Pokémon."
Why do you think this isn't Soul Manipulation?

Agree with sprit shackle though.

You mean you agree that, Spirit Shackle, counterintuitively for its name, is Shadow Manipulation, not Soul Manipulation?

Shadow and curse manip actually. Ghost type has destiny bond, curse, hex, Poltergeist, nightmare (which is a mixture fear and curse), Never-Ending Nightmare etc

Destiny Bond feels a little more like Fate Manipulation to me, but I can understand the case for Curse Manipulation.
Nightmare definitely seems like Dream Manipulation.
The Z-Move Never-Ending Nightmare?
"Deep-seated grudges summoned by the user's Z-Power trap the target. The power varies, depending on the original move."
You mean you feel that that's Curse Manipulation?

 

[Imaginym]

The term psychic doesn't refer to telekinesis alone and even then telekinesis can create shockwaves,

I agree, & do not feel that I denied that.

also about psywave that's gen 4 entry the newer and older entries refer to it as psychic energy

Well, yes, the newest description is "The target is attacked with an odd psychic wave.", but I don't think we should disregard the info presented by the descriptions used in FR/LG, & every Gen 4 game it appeared in. It's possible forit to be both a psychic energy wave, & an "odd, hot energy wave", isn't it?

so no point in mentioning that or psyco cut, psystrike and psyshock

I kinda get what you mean.
Nonetheless, the variability of what "psychic energy" does makes me skeptical that it can be consistently attributed as Telekinesis. Thus, whether that means we can apply Resistance to Telekinesis for it or not is up for debate, IMHO.

 

[Rez]

Destiny Bond feels a little more like Fate Manipulation to me, but I can understand the case for Curse Manipulation.
Nightmare definitely seems like Dream Manipulation.
The Z-Move Never-Ending Nightmare?
"Deep-seated grudges summoned by the user's Z-Power trap the target. The power varies, depending on the original move."
You mean you feel that that's Curse Manipulation?

Nightmare is dream, fear and curse manipulation
Yeah the grudges part it's very common for those sort of things to be related to curses in Easter countries and the description in general sounds like curse manip to me

Most recent, & only description:
"The user attacks by sending a frightful amount of small ghosts at opposing Pokémon."
Why do you think this isn't Soul Manipulation?

You mean you agree that, Spirit Shackle, counterintuitively for its name, is Shadow Manipulation, not Soul Manipulation?

Yeah that actually sounds like soul manip just not offensive

Yes