Pokémon Types: Establishing Standards

[FinePoint]

INTRO​

There are a lot of Pokémon profiles on this site, and there are a lot of types in Pokémon. In short, this has led to massive inconsistency in the way types are indexed.​

The example I used last time it was mentioned was Psychic Type. To prove my point, I looked up three random Dark Type pages, and got the following for their Resistance to Psychic Type:

• Zoroark, Resistance to Telekinesis
• Absol, Resistance to Mind Manipulation
• Umbreon, Resistance to Sleep Manipulation (Which isn't even true?)

Psychic Type isn't the only one, just the easiest to get examples for. There's been debate about Ghost Type, Fairy Type, and even whether resistances should even work on non-Pokémon moves at all. We desperately need standards which people can use for the future. Since Pokémon clean ups are happening now anyways, this seems like the right time to do so.​

OPTIONS​

So how do we establish standards, and what should they be? Well, there's probably many options. I'll start with those that are most obvious, and edit this post as it's discussed.​

Option 1: Match and Index Them Case-by-Case to Existing Powers:​

For example, having resistance to Electric Type being listed as resistance to Electricity Manipulation. Below is a list I'll update of exact matchups, starting with those that seem obvious to me. Cases where a type contains "normal" strikes, they still glow with the energy of that type. That is, regular hits of a type are enhanced with that element. This isn't the only verse where that happens, so I don't necessarily think that invalidates linking the entire type.​

Normal: ???
Fire: Fire Manipulation
Water: Water Manipulation
Grass: Plant Manipulation
Electric: Electricity Manipulation
Ice: Ice Manipulation
Fighting: Aura, or Martial Arts (Iffy)
Poison: Poison Manipulation
Ground: Earth Manipulation
Flying: Air Manipulation
Psychic: Telekinesis (Some contradictions)
(Contrary to popular belief, nothing resists psychic status moves like hypnosis)
Bug: ???
Rock: Earth Manipulation
Ghost: Shadow Manipulation
Dark: Darkness Manipulation
Dragon: ???
Steel: Metal Manipulation
Fairy: Magic

Option 1.5: Same as Option 1, but Exclude Strange Types:
For example, Normal Type is too difficult to compare to other verses, so it would just be listed as "Resistance to Normal Type Moves"
Types excluded may include: Fighting, Bug, Normal, Ghost, Dragon, Flying.

Option 2: Index Them Without Linking:​

There is some debate to be had whether resisting a Pokémon type should give you resistance to anything at all. One one hand, it seems weird to think of a Ground Type Pokémon being harmed by normal electricity, but on the other hand all typing comes from the plates, and there's some weird ones like Normal and Fighting. Even Normal Type moves glow with energy when they attack in the anime, this is the plate's power. If everything is purely plate-based, then maybe they shouldn't resist non-Pokémon moves at all. You could also argue this is covered by verse equalization, but I'm not sure.​

​

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Option 3: Don't Establish a Standard:​

Self-explanatory. This would keep the wild Pokémon wasteland as the mess it currently is. I don't personally see the appeal of this, but I'm sure at least one person will argue for this.​

Opinions​

Option 1 (0 votes):
Option 1.5 (16 votes): SamanPatou, Elizhaa, Colonel_Krukov, ElixirBlue, KingTempest, GyroNutz, Psychomaster35, DragonGamerZ913, Amelia_Lonelyheart, Antoniofer, Arceus0x, Rez, StrymULTRA, The_Axiom_of_Virgo, Bobsican, Lou_change
Option 2 (2 votes): Colonel_Krukov, Antoniofer
Option 3 (1 votes): XXKINGXX69

Names are colored based on staff position. Green is admin/bureaucrat. Yellow is content mod. Red is thread mod. Orange is calc group. Gray is retired.
Krukov and Antoniofer are in two places because they said they were fine with either.​

​

 

[SamanPatou]

Some profiles have things like (random example), "Resistance to Ghost, Fighting and Normal-type moves/attacks".

I think we should stick with that for those types which can't be compared to a specific thing, such as Fighting, Bug, Normal, Ghost, Psychic, Dragon, Flying and Fairy.
Some are just too specific and varied at the same time, others can be a bunch of more or less specific powers and everything gets messy when you compare it to verses with different mechanics, as in Pokémon even a punch or a scratch can be several different things.

 

[Arceus0x]

When it comes to psychic attacks i believe
-Mind manipulation (Hypnosis constantly controls minds outside the mainline games, confusion and confuse ray cause a character to go into a berserk state)
-Sleep manipulation (again, hypnosis)
-telekinesis (dark types basically ignore all forms of telekinetic abilities)

I believe we should slightly mix it up.
You see, there are examples of pokemon being resistant to their own element outside of moves. An example would be fire types which completely ignore the heat of molten magma and can freely swim in it.

So overall: option 1.5

 

[FinePoint]

I desperately need sleep, so if anybody gives input I'll add them when I wake up.

 

[Arceus0x]

Some profiles have things like (random example), "Resistance to Ghost, Fighting and Normal-type moves/attacks".

I think we should stick with that for those types which can't be compared to a specific thing, such as Fighting, Bug, Normal, Ghost, Psychic, Dragon, Flying and Fairy.
Some are just too specific and varied at the same time, others can be a bunch of more or less specific powers and everything gets messy when you compare it to verses with different mechanics, as in Pokémon even a punch or a scratch can be several different things.

yes i agree with this

 

[FinePoint]

Some profiles have things like (random example), "Resistance to Ghost, Fighting and Normal-type moves/attacks".

I think we should stick with that for those types which can't be compared to a specific thing, such as Fighting, Bug, Normal, Ghost, Psychic, Dragon, Flying and Fairy.
Some are just too specific and varied at the same time, others can be a bunch of more or less specific powers and everything gets messy when you compare it to verses with different mechanics, as in Pokémon even a punch or a scratch can be several different things.

When it comes to psychic attacks i believe
-Mind manipulation (Hypnosis constantly controls minds outside the mainline games, confusion and confuse ray cause a character to go into a berserk state)
-Sleep manipulation (again, hypnosis)
-telekinesis (dark types basically ignore all forms of telekinetic abilities)

I believe we should slightly mix it up.
You see, there are examples of pokemon being resistant to their own element outside of moves. An example would be fire types which completely ignore the heat of molten magma and can freely swim in it.

So overall: option 1.5

So both of you think we should do option 1 basically, except for types which are too nuanced?
I can add another option for that.

 

[Arceus0x]

Basically: elemental and understandable attacks need to be attached to an ability
Others - not quite.

I also want to add steel types to the list of the types mentioned and have psychic as half/half on this

 

[FinePoint]

I added an option 1.5, and added you both as votes.
Does it seem alright to you?

 

[Rez]

Option 1 or 3 are fine I think. Absolutely disagree with option 2 though.

Basically: elemental and understandable attacks need to be attached to an ability
Others - not quite.

This seems to be the best course of action

 

[FinePoint]

-Sleep manipulation (again, hypnosis)

The problem I have with this is that dark types are not immune to being put to sleep, only to being put to sleep by Hypnosis, which would fall under their resistance to Mind Manipulation. We can add Telekinesis though, that makes sense.

 

[FinePoint]

Option 1 or 3 are fine I think. Absolutely disagree with option 2 though.

This seems to be the best course of action

I added a 1.5 option. Do you agree with that one the most?

 

[Rez]

I added a 1.5 option. Do you agree with that one the most?

Yeah I do

 

[Antoniofer]

Always wondered if there is an in-universe explaination why typing advantage/disadvantage is what it is beyond of game mechanics, apparently the only interactions that has any of sense are ground-electricity due ground types having elevated resistivity or no conductivity at all; other typing advantage/disadvantage seems kind of arbitrary. Now, I see now they types work due Arceus's plates? Would they just resist stuff due their own universe unique energy/force?

 

[SamanPatou]

I also want to add steel types to the list of the types mentioned and have psychic as half/half on this

The problem is that you have status moves and such working regardless of resistances, and so you have the Dark type which both resists and doesn't resists mind manip depending on what the opposin Pokémon throws at him.
And, as you said, the Psychic type can be Telekinesis, Mind Manip and Sleep Manip, but also Energy Projection, physical attacks, Gravity Manip, Light Manip and more.

 

[Psychomaster35]

I agree with option 1.5 as well

 

[FinePoint]

Always wondered if there is an in-universe explaination why typing advantage/disadvantage is what it is beyond of game mechanics, apparently the only interactions that has any of sense are ground-electricity due ground types having elevated resistivity or no conductivity at all; other typing advantage/disadvantage seems kind of arbitrary. Now, I see now they types work due Arceus's plates? Would they just resist stuff due their own universe unique energy/force?

If Option 2 was chosen, then Pokémon's type-based resistances would only work against other Pokémon.
Their resistances granted by abilities or otherwise would remain.

 

[FinePoint]

Also, to everyone voting for 1.5, do you have any objections to the list of excluded types or objections to the links on included types?
If either 1 or 1.5 is accepted, we will need to then establish what the standard actually is, and post it on the verse page or something.

Personally, I think Psychic, Fairy, and Ghost could still work.

 

[FinePoint]

-Sleep manipulation (again, hypnosis)

Actually, I just remembered that hypnosis does in fact affect dark types.
Thunder Wave is the only status move that doesn't ignore type immunities.

 

[FinePoint]

This means dark types are also affected by confuse ray.
Based on the description of Confusion, I believe having them resist telekinesis is actually the only valid one.

 

[Arceus0x]

Also, to everyone voting for 1.5, do you have any objections to the list of excluded types or objections to the links on included types?
If either 1 or 1.5 is accepted, we will need to then establish what the standard actually is, and post it on the verse page or something.

Personally, I think Psychic, Fairy, and Ghost could still work.

i believe that they wouldn't.
Their moves vary a lot. I mean one move from fairy is light, the other is wind, and the third is the moon blowing up in your face.

Also steel type should be partially under non-elemental standards due to flash canon and stuff being a thing.

If Option 2 was chosen, then Pokémon's type-based resistances would only work against other Pokémon.

then so should he weaknesses.
Fire types could probably take damage from a guy manipulating tsunamis but a grass type getting absolutely demolished by a wind-based attack? Nuh-uh.

 

[Arceus0x]

This means dark types are also affected by confuse ray.
Based on the description of Confusion, I believe having them resist telekinesis is actually the only valid one.

true
ghost types should though.
Gastly resisted mind manipulation in the anime

 

[FinePoint]

true
ghost types should though.
Gastly resisted mind manipulation in the anime

That sounds more like a Gastly feat than a ghost-type feat.

 

[Antoniofer]

Yeah, if we go for granted resistances/weaknesses to abilities and powers as they list in Option 1 we''ll have counter-intuitive stuff. One can deem pkm resist to fire and ice attacks as resistence to heat and cold respectively, but stuff being resistent to martial arts and water is something that lack sense: how is that a ghost is immune to punches while still being damaged by water impacts and rock throws, or rock/metal being creatures resist few punches while still being vulnerable to other type of punches?

Expanding, rather than psychics being related to Mind Manip, they are more related to psychic energy manipulation, kind of like Riru from Needless, they manipulate forms of psi. Bug and Normal type are a kin to Natural Weaponry, although the first one tends to cutting and piercing weaponry, while normal types tends to bludgeonging attacks (although cutting and piercing are also existent).

 

[FinePoint]

And, as you said, the Psychic type can be Telekinesis, Mind Manip and Sleep Manip, but also Energy Projection, physical attacks, Gravity Manip, Light Manip and more.

Sorry, if I wasn't so sleep deprived I probably would've realized it sooner, but:
Dark types don't resist any psychic status moves. No type does.
The only Status Move which doesn't ignore Type Immunities is Thunder Wave.

This means things which resist Psychic Types really ONLY resist Telekinesis and attacks charged with "psychic power".
Given that, I think linking to Telekinesis is actually the correct play.

 

[Arceus0x]

Yeah, if we go for granted resistances/weaknesses to abilities and powers as they list in Option 1 we''ll have counter-intuitive stuff. One can deem pkm resist to fire and ice attacks as resistence to heat and cold respectively, but stuff being resistent to martial arts and water is something that lack sense: how is that a ghost is immune to punches while still being damaged by water impacts and rock throws, or rock/metal being creatures resist few punches while still being vulnerable to other type of punches?

Expanding, rather than psychics being related to Mind Manip, they are more related to psychic energy manipulation, kind of like Riru from Needless, they manipulate forms of psi. Bug and Normal type are a kin to Natural Weaponry, although the first one tends to cutting and piercing weaponry, while normal types tends to bludgeonging attacks (although cutting and piercing are also existent).

tbh i feel like pokemon having some levels of NPI would make more sense. Gengar, for example, can casually go in between walls and floors and so do many countless ghost types.
Tbh it isn't super inconsistet, gengar can literally touch souls

 

[Arceus0x]

anyways imma go take a break, see yall later, if you have controversial opinions then wait for me

 

[Lou_change]

Fighting, Bug, Normal, Ghost, Psychic, Dragon, Flying and Fairy.

Fighting is also chi manipulation, normal varies to much, bug and flying are natural weaponry and animal/air manipulation along with light and energy natural weaponry should be ignored for this,ghost we have ectoplasm manipulation for some reason which fits the bill, psychic is telekinesis resistance almost everything else is status, dragon type is natural weaponry and magic fairy is also magic both are mostly resisted by the same types. I think it would make more sense to know which move is what powers stuff like trick room, dig, and peck.

 

[FinePoint]

text

So which option are you voting for?

 

[Rez]

Here is what each type will resist if option 1.5 is chosen. I might have missed something.

Normal: will resist nothing. Well they will still be immune to ghost type but that's more of an verse exclusive thing
Fire: fire manip, plant manip, ice manip, metal manip, and whatever the fairy type is
Water: water manip, fire, ice, steel
Grass: electricity manipulation, grass manipulation, earth manipulation and limited immunity to plant based or related status effects
Electric: electricity manip, air manip, steel, and immunity to paralysis inducement (from gen 6 onwards electric types can't be paralysed by any moves)
Ice: ice manip that's it
Fighting: rock manip, darkness manip
Poison: poison manipulation, plant manip, and magic (only if fairy is considered to be magic otherwise nothing)
Ground: Rock manip and poison manip
Flying: Earth manip, Plant manip
Psychic: Telekinesis
Bug: earth manip, plant manip
Rock: Fire manip, Air, poison
Ghost: poison manipulation
Dark: darkness manip and telekinesis
Dragon: fire manip, water manip, plant manip, electricity manip
Steel: darkness manip, air manip, grass manip, ice, telekinesis, rock manip and metal manip
Fairy: darkness manip

 

[FinePoint]

Well they will still be immune to ghost type but that's more of an verse exclusive thing

The objection I believe is that ghost-type attacks are too varied.
Perhaps we should gather a list of ghost-type attacking moves which go beyond ectoplasm manipulation and re-analyze it then.

magic (only if fairy is considered to be magic otherwise nothing)

Well, I believe this is actually the only one which was discussed extensively before. I believe it was concluded at one point that it should be magic because basically every fairy move was magical in nature. Personally I'm not against it.

 

[Rez]

Well, I believe this is actually the only one which was discussed extensively before. I believe it was concluded at one point that it should be magic because basically every fairy move was magical in nature. Personally I'm not against it.

Well good then fire and poison gets resistance to magic

 

[FinePoint]

dragon type is natural weaponry

This just seems like a ridiculous reach.

Which option are you voting for, exactly? It seems like 1.

 

[FinePoint]

Well good then fire and poison gets resistance to magic

And steel.

 

[FinePoint]

Okay. For real now, I'm going to message supporting staff and then go to bed.
I'll update any new votes when I wake up, unless a staff member has the power to edit my post and wants to do it themselves in the meantime.

 

[SamanPatou]

The Dragon Type is Natural Weaponry, Energy projection, Air Manipulation and several other things.

Fire and Poison types shouldn't resist Magic at all, since it's already a stretch to equalize different types of Magic between verses which actually have it, let alone Pokémon, for which we use the word Magic only because it's easier to categorize the Fairy type, which encompasses a pletora of powers.

 

[Antoniofer]

Don't argue they couldn't have NPI, but if they constantly can damage an intangible ghost but sudenly, when performing a karate chop or some kick, the attack phases through the ghost, like, do they lost their NPI? And what about rock toss and earthquake? the pkm may have NPI, but a random rock or the ground itself does not possesses NPI (at least, not by default).

 

[StrymULTRA]

1.5 too, Only that.

Normal, Fighting, Bug, Psychic and Dragon Types are Unquantifiable.

Ghost should be Shadow Manipulation.

Flying is Air Manipulation.

Fairy is Holy Manipulation.

 

[SamanPatou]

Expanding, rather than psychics being related to Mind Manip, they are more related to psychic energy manipulation, kind of like Riru from Needless, they manipulate forms of psi. Bug and Normal type are a kin to Natural Weaponry, although the first one tends to cutting and piercing weaponry, while normal types tends to bludgeonging attacks (although cutting and piercing are also existent).

Bug type is also sound, energy, absorption etc.., just like the normal type is a million of other things in its own.

Imho, that's why we can't just give some Pokémon ten thousand resistances and then write that they resist them sometimes (against damaging attacks), while other times they don't (statuses), and so on.

 

[Lou_change]

The Dragon Type is Natural Weaponry, Energy projection, Air Manipulation and several other things.

Fire and Poison types shouldn't resist Magic at all, since it's already a stretch to equalize different types of Magic between verses which actually have it, let alone Pokémon, for which we use the word Magic only because it's easier to categorize the Fairy type, which encompasses a pletora of powers.

Magic used for other abilities like status effects or shooting fire would still work normally I think.

 

[StrymULTRA]

It shouldn't be Magic tbh. It should be Holy Manipulation, as it works like such.