Pokémon Types: Establishing Standards

[Arceus0x]

So boys i'd like to point out if it wasn't pointed out already, that moves like Psychic and confusion only work like telekinesis in anime and even then, not always. In the manga it is the mix of the two if i understood it right.

Either way resistance to psychic is a resistance to specific psychic energy, the same shiz Mewtwo and Alakazam use to make spoons of all things (like bruh make a sword or a knife or sth). Psychic as a move seems to be applicable in different ways such as when in the first movie Mewtwo used it as telekinetic attacks and beams and even explosive waves.

 

[FinePoint]

Just to point out, Resistance is just lessening the effect of an ability, immunity is just the logical extreme of that. Hell, we even use Pokemon as our example for resistances.

But the effects aren't lessened except for immunities.
Only the damage is lessened, not the effects.

 

[FinePoint]

Didn't we already agreed to simply write Damage Reduction against the specific types rather than list every power associated with the types?

This doesn't work for immunities, since they ignore the extra effects too.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here so far, and what still needs to be evaluated?

 

[FinePoint]

So what are the conclusions here so far, and what still needs to be evaluated?

Option 1.5 was accepted, which says that we should link types to wiki abilities unless the types are inconsistent/too strange.

There's some disagreement on whether only the "base element" of the type should be resisted or all its implied effects.
A spreadsheet was made to organize the latter.

We also haven't 100% decided on which types are considered inconsistent/too strange or created a draft text, but unfortunately almost nobody replied after you mentioned them.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, so which members agree with what so far? Can you write a list please?

 

[FinePoint]

Okay, so which members agree with what so far? Can you write a list please?

I will make a list if I remember tomorrow.
I'll have to comb through the thread again.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[GyroNutz]

But the effects aren't lessened except for immunities.
Only the damage is lessened, not the effects.

Damage is an effect of an attack though.

 

[Arceus0x]

Damage is an effect of an attack though.

true, also don't pokemon take less damage from status effects they're resistant to? Or is my memory being faulty?

 

[GyroNutz]

true, also don't pokemon take less damage from status effects they're resistant to? Or is my memory being faulty?

Don't think that's a thing, definitely not in the main series. Although Heatproof does half burn damage.

 

[Rez]

true, also don't pokemon take less damage from status effects they're resistant to? Or is my memory being faulty?

I think you might be thinking about stealth rock. But that's not exactly a status effect.

 

[Bobsican]

Stealth Rock is straight up a offensive move in Legends Arceus, so uh...

 

[FinePoint]

Don't think that's a thing, definitely not in the main series. Although Heatproof does half burn damage.

Well, yes, but we're not really talking about abilities in this thread.
Those are a whole separate issue.

 

[GyroNutz]

Well, yes, but we're not really talking about abilities in this thread.
Those are a whole separate issue.

I'm aware, I was just clarifying in case that's where the confusion came from.

 

[FinePoint]

I'm aware, I was just clarifying in case that's where the confusion came from.

Alright, that's fine.

Is there a reason not to use damage reduction?
Is there a stipulation that it must apply to all damage types?

If not, then it just seems more helpful for the purpose of being clear on what resisting a type does in this context.
The fact that the resistance page uses a Pokémon image isn't really a concern to me, I don't think that really adds authority since we didn't even have standards before.

 

[FinePoint]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

Below is a list as far as I was able to gather for the first issue. It's obviously incomplete, but I wanted to avoid speaking for people if their opinion didn't seem very clear to me.

People who have expressed a desire to only grant resistances to the element of a type's attacks:
Antoniofer first made this argument,
KingTempest (Suggested the second option at first, but then agreed with Antoniofer's analysis),
QuasiYuri (Also agreed with Antoniofer's assessment),
ChosenOrDeath (Liked Antoniofer's post),
Rez (Argued along the lines that resisting a specific move like "spore" only granted resistance to grass-based sleep inducement),
FinePoint (I personally agree with this option after thinking it over)

People who have expressed a desire to grant resistances based on every possible effect of a type's attacks:
The_Axiom_of_Virgo (Suggested several resistances based on specific attacks),
Lou_change (Argued Antoniofer's stance ignored the context of attacks being infused with elements),
XXKINGXX69 (Suggested several resistances based on specific attacks),

Everyone else has not explicitly expressed an opinion on this.
Arceus0x has been very active in this thread, but most of his debate seems centered around the issue of which types are too inconsistent, so I didn't feel comfortable adding him to this list. I'll make a different list for that issue later. It's worth noting that his first few posts did want to split Psychic into several resistances, but his posts were all based on status moves which were debunked as not being resisted based on type.

 

[FinePoint]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

Now here is the list of opinions for the second issue: which types are considered too strange or inconsistent (As far as I could tell, obviously).

SamanPatou: Made the first post listing his choice of types to exclude: Fighting, Bug, Normal, Ghost, Psychic, Dragon, Flying, and Fairy.

Arceus0x: Said Steel and Psychic (As 50/50?) should also be added to the list of excluded types. Disagrees with Ghost and Fighting.

Antoniofer: Made an inclusive list rather an exclusive one, including: Fire, Ice, Electric, Psychic, Ghost, Dark, Poison, Ground, Rock, Flying, Grass, Fairy.

Lou_change: Argued that Steel Type should be succinctly covered by Resistance to Metal Manipulation.

Rez: Agreed with Lou-change that Steel Type is fine to include.

XXXKINGXX69: Argued Steel, Normal, Fighting should be included. Also Bug and Fairy, listed many specifics here.

DragonGamerZ913: Argued Dragon type should be Energy Projection.

Amelia_Lonelyheart: Argued Dragon type should be Magic.

GyroNutz: Argued that Ghost, Flying, should be included as Ectoplasm/Air Manipulation.

Bobsican: Seemed to support Dark being included.

Imaginym: Pointed out many inconsistencies with Psychic, Ghost, Dark, and Fairy type moves.

FinePoint: I agree with SamanPatou's list, except I think Flying and Fairy can probably be included as Air/Magic. Iffy about Ghost and Psychic, ultimately neutral on them.

StrymULTRA: Argues Fighting and Psychic should be excluded. Also that rock and Ground should be more explicitly separated. Argues Fairy should be Holy Manipulation and Ghost should be Ectoplasm Manipulation.

 

[GyroNutz]

Is there a reason not to use damage reduction?
Is there a stipulation that it must apply to all damage types?

If not, then it just seems more helpful for the purpose of being clear on what resisting a type does in this context.
The fact that the resistance page uses a Pokémon image isn't really a concern to me, I don't think that really adds authority since we didn't even have standards before.

Damage Reduction tends to be more of a general ability, whereas a Resistance is more specific to a particular ability. There are legit examples of Damage Reduction in Pokemon, such as Rhyperior's Solid Rock or Necrozma's Prism Armour.

I think it is important, as the argument for Damage Reduction is that it doesn't fit our standards for "Resistance"... which it does.

 

[Antvasima]

Below is a list as far as I was able to gather for the first issue. It's obviously incomplete, but I wanted to avoid speaking for people if their opinion didn't seem very clear to me.

People who have expressed a desire to only grant resistances to the element of a type's attacks:
Antoniofer first made this argument,
KingTempest (Suggested the second option at first, but then agreed with Antoniofer's analysis),
QuasiYuri (Also agreed with Antoniofer's assessment),
ChosenOrDeath (Liked Antoniofer's post),
Rez (Argued along the lines that resisting a specific move like "spore" only granted resistance to grass-based sleep inducement),
FinePoint (I personally agree with this option after thinking it over)

People who have expressed a desire to grant resistances based on every possible effect of a type's attacks:
The_Axiom_of_Virgo (Suggested several resistances based on specific attacks),
Lou_change (Argued Antoniofer's stance ignored the context of attacks being infused with elements),
XXKINGXX69 (Suggested several resistances based on specific attacks),

Everyone else has not explicitly expressed an opinion on this.
Arceus0x has been very active in this thread, but most of his debate seems centered around the issue of which types are too inconsistent, so I didn't feel comfortable adding him to this list. I'll make a different list for that issue later. It's worth noting that his first few posts did want to split Psychic into several resistances, but his posts were all based on status moves which were debunked as not being resisted based on type.

Okay. Should we go with the first option then?

@GyroNutz @Amelia_Lonelyheart @DragonGamerZ913 @Antoniofer @SamanPatou @QuasiYuri @KingTempest

What do you think?

 

[FinePoint]

Damage Reduction tends to be more of a general ability, whereas a Resistance is more specific to a particular ability. There are legit examples of Damage Reduction in Pokemon, such as Rhyperior's Solid Rock or Necrozma's Prism Armour.

I think it is important, as the argument for Damage Reduction is that it doesn't fit our standards for "Resistance"... which it does.

Okay. That is fine. It makes no difference to me, it's just that someone suggested it and I wondered if it would be more helpful given the connotation.

How will we differentiate between immunities and resistances on the profiles?
For example, Charizard currently has his 1/2x, 1/4x, and 0x resists all listed as just "resistance" without explanation.
I understand that the exact numbers are sort of game mechanics, but shouldn't we differentiate between the normal resistances and immunities somehow? The difference to me seems significant enough to warrant a distinction of some capacity.

 

[GyroNutz]

How will we differentiate between immunities and resistances on the profiles?
For example, Charizard currently has his 1/2x, 1/4x, and 0x resists all listed as just "resistance" without explanation.
I understand that the exact numbers are sort of game mechanics, but shouldn't we differentiate between the normal resistances and immunities somehow? The difference to me seems significant enough to warrant a distinction of some capacity.

What I've seen before are "Resistances" listed as that, and "Immunities" listed as either an "Extreme Resistance" or an "Immunity (within reason)" to said ability (I prefer the former). Dunno about differentiating between 1/2x and 1/4x resistances.

 

[Bobsican]

"higher Resistance" would work here well.
I can't help but cringe at the nonsense some pages have like "this immunity can be bypassed by beings on the level of legendary Pokémon" with no citations whatsoever. I'm aware of NLFs and all, but at the same time don't draw a line where this starts with no citation.

 

[GyroNutz]

Whatever the case, we need something that is consistent across the profiles.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Whatever the case, we need something that is consistent across the profiles.

Tbh consistency in general is a major issue with many Pokémon profiles but that can of wurmples is best saved for another CRT.


EDiT; just noticed the Wurmple evolution line doesn't even have profiles here so RIP my pun.

 

[FinePoint]

Tbh consistency in general is a major issue with many Pokémon profiles but that can of wurmples is best saved for another CRT.

Consistency is the entire point of this CRT, actually.

Whatever the case, we need something that is consistent across the profiles.

Yes. Thanks for helping out.
My personal preference is "Immunity (within reason)", with Immunity linking to the resistance page.

They should be immune to attacks around the AP of the third-stage regular pokemon at least.

Not sure about Megas/Dynamax.
Definitely not mythicals/legendaries.
Unless of course the Pokémon in question is in these categories themselves.

We can include the criteria wherever we end up writing these standards.

 

[Imaginym]

Has anyone been able to look into/find & compile statements & feats about what the Plates have?
If the types really do have energy associated with them, it may be worth documenting, even if it may not be relevant now.

On the topic of Resistance levels, I wonder if we should give special mention to Pokemon like Walrein (8x Resistance to Ice via Thick Fat.), & Parasect (5x weak to Fire due to Dry Skin.), among others.

 

[FinePoint]

Has anyone been able to look into/find & compile statements & feats about what the Plates have?
If the types really do have energy associated with them, it may be worth documenting, even if it may not be relevant now.

On the topic of Resistance levels, I wonder if we should give special mention to Pokemon like Walrein (8x Resistance to Ice via Thick Fat.), & Parasect (5x weak to Fire due to Dry Skin.), among others.

If there's multiple things giving them resistance we could list them in parenthesis I suppose.

Resistance to Ice Manipulation (From Thick Fat as well as typing)

 

[FinePoint]

Bump

 

[StrymULTRA]

Honestly, add me to the "weird" opinions. Imo the types you wrote are right, except some:

• Fighting: Should be excluded as it's really nothing more than just punches and Energy Projection. "Resistance to Martial Arts" doesn't make sense, and to Aura either as Aura in fiction greatly varies.
• Rock and Ground being under the same ability feels wrong honestly. Rock types are weak against Ground ones, they'd be weaker to their own power, when they take regular damage from their own type. Same with Ground, only that they resist Rock. Writing a thing like "Ground-based Earth Manip/Rock-based Earth Manip" should specify it tbh. I say this also because Flying Type exists, it'd be pretty weird if is immune and weak at the same time to Earth manip.
• Psychic: Excluded. It does a lot more stuff than Telekinesis. Telekinesis is a move that works on them, and the aforementioned Hex debunks scug. Not to mention that includes also energy projection moves like Psywave.
• Ghost: Shadow Manip is a no-no. It's a subtype to Darkness manip, and Dark type perfectly fits for such. Ectoplasm Manipulation instead fits due to the description "energy unique to spirits/ghosts. Typically this comes in the form of beams or balls of energy that the user can charge and fire at enemies, and ignores the intangibility that is normally associated with ghosts or spirits." with the latter fitting Ghost type weakness to themselves.
• Fairy: Magic is a no-no for the same reason why Fighting shouldn't associated with Aura. Magic in fiction literally means anything. Holy Manipulation fits instead, as given the description "It is a very broad term that has a variety of applications and frequently intersects with Light Manipulation, Healing, Magic, and other abilities generally considered to fall under the "good" or "lawful". Due to its nature, it is often extremely effective against those deemed "evil" or "monstrous", serving as a weakness to many characters under those categories." and it fits both, as Fairy Type moves have this kind of stuff like Magic (which is included from default), Light Manipulation (Moonbeam, Dazzling Gleam, etc) or Healing (Moonlight or Draining Kiss), and they indeed are supereffective against Dark Types, which is straight up called "Evil type" in Japanese.

 

[FinePoint]

Honestly, add me to the "weird" opinions. Imo the types you wrote are right, except some:

• Fighting: Should be excluded as it's really nothing more than just punches and Energy Projection. "Resistance to Martial Arts" doesn't make sense, and to Aura either as Aura in fiction greatly varies.
• Rock and Ground being under the same ability feels wrong honestly. Rock types are weak against Ground ones, they'd be weaker to their own power, when they take regular damage from their own type. Same with Ground, only that they resist Rock. Writing a thing like "Ground-based Earth Manip/Rock-based Earth Manip" should specify it tbh. I say this also because Flying Type exists, it'd be pretty weird if is immune and weak at the same time to Earth manip.
• Psychic: Excluded. It does a lot more stuff than Telekinesis. Telekinesis is a move that works on them, and the aforementioned Hex debunks scug. Not to mention that includes also energy projection moves like Psywave.
• Ghost: Shadow Manip is a no-no. It's a subtype to Darkness manip, and Dark type perfectly fits for such. Ectoplasm Manipulation instead fits due to the description "energy unique to spirits/ghosts. Typically this comes in the form of beams or balls of energy that the user can charge and fire at enemies, and ignores the intangibility that is normally associated with ghosts or spirits." with the latter fitting Ghost type weakness to themselves.
• Fairy: Magic is a no-no for the same reason why Fighting shouldn't associated with Aura. Magic in fiction literally means anything. Holy Manipulation fits instead, as given the description "It is a very broad term that has a variety of applications and frequently intersects with Light Manipulation, Healing, Magic, and other abilities generally considered to fall under the "good" or "lawful". Due to its nature, it is often extremely effective against those deemed "evil" or "monstrous", serving as a weakness to many characters under those categories." and it fits both, as Fairy Type moves have this kind of stuff like Magic (which is included from default), Light Manipulation (Moonbeam, Dazzling Gleam, etc) or Healing (Moonlight or Draining Kiss), and they indeed are supereffective against Dark Types, which is straight up called "Evil type" in Japanese.

Well the write up on the actual profile would be "Resistance to Rock Type Moves" with "Rock Type" linking to Earth Manipulation. So it would already be specified.

What do you mean add you to "weird" opinions?

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Honestly, add me to the "weird" opinions. Imo the types you wrote are right, except some:

• Fighting: Should be excluded as it's really nothing more than just punches and Energy Projection. "Resistance to Martial Arts" doesn't make sense, and to Aura either as Aura in fiction greatly varies.
• Rock and Ground being under the same ability feels wrong honestly. Rock types are weak against Ground ones, they'd be weaker to their own power, when they take regular damage from their own type. Same with Ground, only that they resist Rock. Writing a thing like "Ground-based Earth Manip/Rock-based Earth Manip" should specify it tbh. I say this also because Flying Type exists, it'd be pretty weird if is immune and weak at the same time to Earth manip.
• Psychic: Excluded. It does a lot more stuff than Telekinesis. Telekinesis is a move that works on them, and the aforementioned Hex debunks scug. Not to mention that includes also energy projection moves like Psywave.
• Ghost: Shadow Manip is a no-no. It's a subtype to Darkness manip, and Dark type perfectly fits for such. Ectoplasm Manipulation instead fits due to the description "energy unique to spirits/ghosts. Typically this comes in the form of beams or balls of energy that the user can charge and fire at enemies, and ignores the intangibility that is normally associated with ghosts or spirits." with the latter fitting Ghost type weakness to themselves.
• Fairy: Magic is a no-no for the same reason why Fighting shouldn't associated with Aura. Magic in fiction literally means anything. Holy Manipulation fits instead, as given the description "It is a very broad term that has a variety of applications and frequently intersects with Light Manipulation, Healing, Magic, and other abilities generally considered to fall under the "good" or "lawful". Due to its nature, it is often extremely effective against those deemed "evil" or "monstrous", serving as a weakness to many characters under those categories." and it fits both, as Fairy Type moves have this kind of stuff like Magic (which is included from default), Light Manipulation (Moonbeam, Dazzling Gleam, etc) or Healing (Moonlight or Draining Kiss), and they indeed are supereffective against Dark Types, which is straight up called "Evil type" in Japanese.

Ghost type moves are indeed darkness manipulation, Dark type is both darkness and evil based attacks (maybe unholy)

 

[StrymULTRA]

What do you mean add you to "weird" opinions?

Now here is the list of opinions for the second issue: which types are considered too strange or inconsistent (As far as I could tell, obviously).

SamanPatou: Made the first post listing his choice of types to exclude: Fighting, Bug, Normal, Ghost, Psychic, Dragon, Flying, and Fairy.

Arceus0x: Said Steel and Psychic (As 50/50?) should also be added to the list of excluded types.

Antoniofer: Made an inclusive list rather an exclusive one, including: Fire, Ice, Electric, Psychic, Ghost, Dark, Poison, Ground, Rock, Flying, Grass, Fairy.

Lou_change: Argued that Steel Type should be succinctly covered by Resistance to Metal Manipulation.

Rez: Agreed with Lou-change that Steel Type is fine to include.

XXXKINGXX69: Argued Steel, Normal, Fighting should be included. Also Bug and Fairy, listed many specifics here.

DragonGamerZ913: Argued Dragon type should be Energy Projection.
Amelia_Lonelyheart: Argued Dragon type should be Magic.

GyroNutz: Argued that Ghost, Flying, should be included as Ectoplasm/Air Manipulation.

Bobsican: Seemed to support Dark being included.

Imaginym: Pointed out many inconsistencies with Psychic, Ghost, Dark, and Fairy type moves.

FinePoint: I agree with SamanPatou's list, except I think Flying and Fairy can probably be included as Air/Magic. Iffy about Ghost and Psychic, ultimately neutral on them.

This. Dunno why I said weird lol.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ghost type moves are indeed darkness manipulation, Dark type is both darkness and evil based attacks (maybe unholy)

Ghost Types aren't Darkness just because they're spooky lol. Dark Types are because they're explicitly such from also to their names. Just Ectoplasm is fine for them.

Unholy doesn't seem to fit as they're not some demonic stuff tbh.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Well the write up on the actual profile would be "Resistance to Rock Type Moves" with "Rock Type" linking to Earth Manipulation. So it would already be specified.

I'm pretty sure it won't be that much straight fowards, as it can just appear as a fancy way to describe Earth Manip. My way is more specific and tells you from the start already which kind of Earth manip is.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Ghost Types aren't Darkness just because they're spooky lol. Dark Types are because they're explicitly such from also to their names. Just Ectoplasm is fine for them.

Unholy doesn't seem to fit as they're not some demonic stuff tbh.

Its because shadiw

 

[FinePoint]

This. Dunno why I said weird lol.

I added you.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Its because shadiw

I'm pretty sure is another case of "Pokémon verse definition of X ≠ Our definition of X" because Shadow here is associated with Darkness manip, and Ghost Type is radically different from Dark, as they're vulnerable to the latter. Ghost attacks are "ghostly" energy, which describes what Ghost type is.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I'm pretty sure is another case of "Pokémon verse definition of X ≠ Our definition of X" because Shadow here is associated with Darkness manip, and Ghost Type is radically different from Dark, as they're vulnerable to the latter. Ghost attacks are "ghostly" energy, which describes what Ghost type is.

They're vulnerable because its darkness + evil

Their definition of shadow is darkness, don't you remember Shadow Sneak and Gengar?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Their definition of shadow is darkness, don't you remember Shadow Sneak and Gengar?

I'm aware, but as you said, Dark Type Darkness ≠ Ghost Type Darkness.

And thus Pokémon verse Shadow is more linked to Ectoplasm than Darkness imo.