Pokémon Types: Establishing Standards

[Imaginym]

Yeah that actually sounds like soul manip just not offensive

Not offensive, despite that it is specifically used for attacking?

 

[Rez]

Not offensive, despite that it is specifically used for attacking?

We don't know if the summoned ghosts are attacking the soul or just the Pokemons physically.

 

[Imaginym]

We don't know if the summoned ghosts are attacking the soul or just the Pokemons physically.

But the ghosts themselves are Souls, are they not?

 

[Rez]

But the ghosts themselves are Souls, are they not?

I suppose so well this isn't the first instance of ghosts (like actual ghosts not ghost types but then again certain pokedex entries makes it seems like their is no difference between the 2) in Pokemon. The most popular one being cubone's mom.

 

[Rez]

Also their are ghost types with genuine soul manip such chandelure, dusknoir and if j remember correctly gengar took out ash's soul from his body in gen 1 anime so astral barrage being soul manip is probably fine

 

[Firestorm808]

It might be good down the line to make a spreadsheet of all the pokemon moves and have listed the abilities for each one so we can properly sort out what typing resistance should give regular or limited resistance to whatever manipulations.

 

[Bobsican]

It might be good down the line to make a spreadsheet of all the pokemon moves and have listed the abilities for each one so we can properly sort out what typing resistance should give regular or limited resistance to whatever manipulations.

I'd heavily support this, but keep in mind there's over 500 moves.

 

[Lou_change]

I'd heavily support this, but keep in mind there's over 500 moves.

Bulbapedia says 826.

 

[Lou_change]

Alright if every currently listed supporter of pokemon was involved and it some how was perfectly organized the number seems to be in the 70s so everyone would have to figure out about 10 moves we haven't even agree is ghost use ectoplasm or darkness and no one has acknowledged my suggestion that fighting type energy is equivalent to chi\ki. However we could likely ignore non status normal moves.

If any is wondering why I am explaining this is to make clear our two options to the hard work and find the right logic to use or take the easy way out and be confused.

 

[Antoniofer]

It seems an unnecessary amount of work, and you'll end up having stuff like having both damage reduction and weakness against the same type of power. Again, pkm resists more the nature of the power rather than its effects.

 

[FinePoint]

Well, you all have to consider that the only status move in existence which cares about typing is Thunder Wave.
This means you can cut out every single status move when listing them.

Either way it would be a lot of work. Perhaps we should create a spreadsheet on google sheets and share it with supporters to add onto it.

 

[FinePoint]

Also, in anticipation of anyone saying we don't need to officially write it down, keep in mind the sheer number of Pokémon profiles and more importantly: the fact that there will definitely be hundreds more Pokémon in the future.
We need a place to easily direct people to if they're not a veteran wiki user but want to contribute.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Hex isn't telekinesis this scene doesn't match moves description or other showing from anime, manga or games

Show me how it looks like then

 

[Rez]

Show me how it looks like then

Look up 77th episode of Pokémon Journeys: The Series and 10th episode of black and white. The manga varient appears to be more like a physical attack and doesn't match the in game description of the move so we can ignore that one.

 

[Bobsican]

Keep in mind that moves doing very different effects across media isn't unheard of. Substitute in-game and in other media is the biggest example.

 

[Rez]

Keep in mind that moves doing very different effects across media isn't unheard of. Substitute in-game and in other media is the biggest example.

True this is precisely why hex isn't telekinesis since that particular showing of the move in anime doesn't match it's in game description meanwhile the other two times it's been used in anime does

 

[Bobsican]

The games also aren't the only authority on terms of what a move is, as each media is about as valid given the nature of this verse, we could just go for the most consistent portrayal if anything, as we've done with Seismic Toss over cherrypicking the Stadium animation.

 

[Firestorm808]

Here, I got you guys started.

Spreadsheet

 

[Rez]

The games also aren't the only authority on terms of what a move is, as each media is about as valid given the nature of this verse, we could just go for the most consistent portrayal if anything, as we've done with Seismic Toss over cherrypicking the Stadium animation.

Well even then hex wouldn't be telekinesis since out of the 3 times it has been used in the anime 2 are actually consistent with games.

 

[FinePoint]

Here, I got you guys started.

Spreadsheet

Excellent. You should start by deleting every entry under the category "Status", since Thunder Wave is the only status move affected by type.
It should cut down a good chunk of the list at least. I'm not 100% sure if there's an easy way to do that in google sheets, but there probably is.

 

[FinePoint]

Or at least move them to a different tab.
By the way, did you do all that by hand?
I see they're all linked, that would be insane.

 

[Rez]

Thunder Wave is the only status move affected by type.

Stun spore, poison powder and basically any other grass type status moves doesn't works on grass types

Also any sort of paralysis move doesn't works on electric types

 

[Bobsican]

Stun spore, poison powder and basically any other grass type status moves doesn't works on grass types

Also any sort of paralysis move doesn't works on electric types

More like just powder and spore moves plus Leech Seed and Forest's Curse (although this one is out of redundancy), saying "all Grass type status moves" is an exaggeration

 

[FinePoint]

True, I forgot about the powder moves.

Grass types resist the following: Cotton Spore, Magic Powder, Poison Powder, Powder, Rage Powder, Sleep Powder, Spore, Stun Spore.
And leech seed.
List here.

 

[FinePoint]

So we need to keep Thunder Wave, and the Powder/Spore moves, and Leech Seed.
We're not missing anything else, right?
I still think it would be easier to delete every status move, then just add these ones back in.

 

[Rez]

More like just powder and spore moves plus Leech Seed and Forest's Curse (although this one is out of redundancy), saying "all Grass type status moves" is an exaggeration

I don't really consider leech seed a status move but I can understand that and technically forest's curse fails against actual grass types. It's a move that works on non grass types and turns them into grass types. But against actual grass types it's useless

 

[FinePoint]

Actually, similar to Thunder Wave, do any of the powder/spore moves do something that other status moves don't?
If not, it's just them resisting the powdery nature, not the effect.
For example resisting spore shouldn't give them resistance to sleep manipulation.

 

[Rez]

So we need to keep Thunder Wave, and the Powder/Spore moves, and Leech Seed.
We're not missing anything else, right?
I still think it would be easier to delete every status move, then just add these ones back in.

Leech seed actually works on grass types and steel types are immune to poison

 

[Rez]

For example resisting spore shouldn't give them resistance to sleep manipulation.

Yeah it should give them limited resistance to status effect inducement nothing more

 

[FinePoint]

Leech seed actually works on grass types and steel types are immune to poison

Steel types are immune to the poison status effect, not poison status moves.
They're still affected by like, gastro acid and stuff.

 

[FinePoint]

So, looking at the powder moves, the only one that doesn't get contradicted by a move from another type is Powder, which causes them to hurt themselves if they use a fire type move.

 

[Firestorm808]

Excellent. You should start by deleting every entry under the category "Status", since Thunder Wave is the only status move affected by type.
It should cut down a good chunk of the list at least. I'm not 100% sure if there's an easy way to do that in google sheets, but there probably is.

You can use the filters above and uncheck status moves.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Look up 77th episode of Pokémon Journeys: The Series and 10th episode of black and white. The manga varient appears to be more like a physical attack and doesn't match the in game description of the move so we can ignore that one.

That doesn't mean Hex can't be telekinesis though

 

[Rez]

That doesn't mean Hex can't be telekinesis though

It does. It has only been shown to work like telekinesis once. So it's more consistent with it's in game description.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

It does. It has only been shown to work like telekinesis once. So it's more consistent with it's in game description.

Again, that doesn't mean Hex can never be used as telekinesis because we literally see a Pokemon doing it like that. I didn't say it was always telekinesis

 

[Antoniofer]

Here, I got you guys started.

Spreadsheet

Didn't we already agreed to simply write Damage Reduction against the specific types rather than list every power associated with the types?

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I think we are still discussing it

 

[Lou_change]

Didn't we already agreed to simply write Damage Reduction against the specific types rather than list every power associated with the types?

No even then having official definitions for the effects of each move would be ideal which is way status moves should still be there and at best normal type attacking moves would be ignored.

 

[GyroNutz]

Just to point out, Resistance is just lessening the effect of an ability, immunity is just the logical extreme of that. Hell, we even use Pokemon as our example for resistances.

 

[Rez]

Again, that doesn't mean Hex can never be used as telekinesis because we literally see a Pokemon doing it like that. I didn't say it was always telekinesis

Yes it does since it was an inconsistent portrayal of the move that doesn't match either it's in game description or other showings