Pokémon Types: Establishing Standards

[Rez]

The Dragon Type is Natural Weaponry, Energy projection, Air Manipulation and several other things.

No a lot of Pokémon who are not dragon types qualifies for natural weaponry and their are also dragon types like goodra and origin form giratina who don't qualify for natural weaponry. Anyway natural weaponry is not an special ability that can be considered exclusive to any particular type.
Energy projection is common for pretty much every type so not an dragon exclusive ability.
Air manipulation for dragon types comes from flying type moves unless you are counting twister.

 

[SamanPatou]

Normal, Fighting, Bug, Psychic and Dragon Types are Unquantifiable.

Ghost should be Shadow Manipulation.

Flying is Air Manipulation.

Fairy is Holy Manipulation.

Not really, Ghost is also Ectoplasm, Energy, Sound, Natural Weaponry, Air etc..

Flying is Air, Physical Attacks, Sound, Natural Weaponry, Energy etc..

Fairy is basically its own thing, Magic or Holy are just labels we use to call it in some way, while it can be Light, Energy, Sound, Absorption, Air, Fragrance, Physical attacks etc...

 

[SamanPatou]

No a lot of Pokémon who are not dragon types qualifies for natural weaponry and their are also dragon types like goodra and origin form giratina who don't qualify for natural weaponry. Anyway natural weaponry is not an special ability that can be considered exclusive to any particular type.
Energy projection is common for pretty much every type so not an dragon exclusive ability.
Air manipulation for dragon types comes from flying type moves unless you are counting twister.

I am accounting Twister, and just becasue Energy projection is common, it doesn't mean it shouldn't be accounted.

When you analyze what a type is, you have to look at all its applications, i.e. moves.

 

[Lou_change]

This just seems like a ridiculous reach.

Which option are you voting for, exactly? It seems like 1.

I say it was also magic but you have a problem with dragon claw, fang and tail. And I already said it won’t count for resistances for bug and flying dragon isn’t different and I just wanted to give more context on some types what about my other ideas.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Fairy is basically its own thing, Magic or Holy are just labels we use to call it in some way, while it can be Light, Energy, Sound, Absorption, Air, Fragrance, Physical attacks etc...

Issue is that Holy Manipulation page literally covers already all of that.

Plus, Fairy Types literally fit the description of Holy Manip.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Ice types resist Absolute Zero due to being immune to the affects of sheer cold.

Also Grass types (Post Gen 6) can't be affected by spore or powder moves so limited resistance to Fungi manipulation?

Btw I'm voting for option 1.5.

 

[Rez]

I am accounting Twister, and just becasue Energy projection is common, it doesn't mean it shouldn't be accounted.

When you analyze what a type is, you have to look at all its applications, i.e. moves.

Yeah but for the sake of figuring out what type resists what only accounting for type exclusive abilities and ignoring the rest seems to be the best and most effective course of action

 

[Rez]

Also Grass types (Post Gen 6) can't be affected by spore or powder moves so limited resistance to Fungi manipulation?

resistance to plant based or related status effect inducement

 

[Antoniofer]

If you trying to associate the different types of powers to types you're going to end up granting arbitrary resistance/weaknesses to every pkm; the only ones that are logical are: fire-type to temperature manipulation (heat), ice type to ice and temperature (cold) manipulation, electrict type to electricity manipulation, psychic type to energy (psi) manipulation, ghost type to ectoplasm manipulation, dark type to darkness + energy manipulation (dark energy?), poison type to poison and acid manipulation, ground and rock type to earth manipulation, flying type to flight, plant type to plant manipulation, and fairy type to magic (or some kind of faery energy?).

Those are the most common powers for these types, other kind of advantage/disadvantage are more arbitrary. You think steel type is manipulating meatl but, how many attacks does this? From my head, several steel attacks are just natural weaponry.

 

[Lou_change]

A lot of Pokémon moves glow with the color most associated with the type most of those are energy manipulation using the energy of the type in combination with natural weaponry or another normally typeless energy like sound I think someone resistant to metal manipulation would also resist Pokémon’s steel type energy.

 

[Rez]

Those are the most common powers for these types, other kind of advantage/disadvantage are more arbitrary. You think steel type is manipulating meatl but, how many attacks does this? From my head, several steel attacks are just natural weaponry.

True several steel type attacks are just them throwing themselves on the opponent but the fact that the steel types themselve are made of metal should be enough for an resistance and their are also a good bit of steel type moves that qualifies for metal manip such as gear grind,steel bomb, Anchor shot, g max steel surge, metal claws(it's description actually states steel claws unlike several other moves which states iron or steel like), steel beam, steel wings

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

resistance to plant based or related status effect inducement

Tbh many Pokémon profiles are lacking that resistance and it's just lumped with elemental resistances.

E.g: All Ghost types are immune to trapping move while fire types can't be inflicted with the burn status.

 

[Antoniofer]

Is the kind of stuff that is counter-intuitive, what is the difference between being stroke by a steel beam, by a log or by a concrete pillar? Assuming they are carry the same force and are concussive attacks, there's no real difference between the three attacks. Now, if in verse pkm surrounds themselves with some elemental energy, then it would have more sense to have resistance, in which case Option 2 has more sense.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Option 3 seems the most reasonable here. Option 1 and 1.5 look lazy as hell.

The steel type, normal type, and fighting types have a unique power to them. Just look at the description for the elemental gems.
Narration of the games also describe Steel Type elemental energy as "Steely Energy"

 

[Antoniofer]

Other thing, not all steel type attacks are exclusive to steel type pkm, so whenever the pkm is made of metal has no bearing; this also apply to other types of pkm. If what KING linked is true, the typing advantage/disadvantage system may be product of an in-universe energy.

 

[Arceus0x]

Other thing, not all steel type attacks are exclusive to steel type pkm, so whenever the pkm is made of metal has no bearing; this also apply to other types of pkm. If what KING linked is true, the typing advantage/disadvantage system may be product of an in-universe energy.

like i said, not always
As an example, fire types are capable of floating in molten lava with no problem. It's an entire mechanic in mystery dungeon. If you are a fire type then you can walk the paths made of glowing molten lava.
So it needs to be a mix/case by case thing.

 

[Lou_change]

Other thing, not all steel type attacks are exclusive to steel type pkm, so whenever the pkm is made of metal has no bearing; this also apply to other types of pkm. If what KING linked is true, the typing advantage/disadvantage system may be product of an in-universe energy.

We already covered that with the plates.

Is the kind of stuff that is counter-intuitive, what is the difference between being stroke by a steel beam, by a log or by a concrete pillar? Assuming they are carry the same force and are concussive attacks, there's no real difference between the three attacks. Now, if in verse pkm surrounds themselves with some elemental energy, then it would have more sense to have resistance, in which case Option 2 has more sense.

we already have characters with those types of ability most manipulations rely heavily on blunt force yet can be resisted Pokémon shouldn’t be excluded except rock and ground types because how do we deal with that.

 

[Antoniofer]

Types as Fire, Ice and Electricity are way easier to discern their advantages and weaknesses, as fire, ice and electricity are universal units: fire types resists both low and elevated temperatures, ice types resists low temperatures and electric types resist current intensity. But stuff like steel, rock, bug, etc, are not units nor types of energies, its interaction with other types has little sense; types such psychic, fairy and dark are more passable, as psychic energy is pretty common in fiction and may even have some pseudoscience attached to it, and supernatural energies such darkness and magic/faery energy are also common.

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

I'm not 100% knowledgeable on Pokemon but either 1.5 or 2 seems okay to me

 

[KingTempest]

Here's an idea.

Go through every pokemon ability that gets resisted and see what they qualify as on the wiki.

Make a new verse specific page for each type.

If it gets resisted, put it in the type as a resisted ability. If not, then it doesn't.

 

[Antoniofer]

The pkm resists more the nature of the attack rather than specific attacks, one may resist a punch to later receives double damage from... another punch. For example we can't gave dark type pkm resistance to sleep manip due being immune to hypnosis when they are still vulnerable to sleep powder and yawn. Going by giving resistance for every attack categorized as x type will grant absurd stuff like natural weaponry or martial arts.

 

[KingTempest]

The pkm resists more the nature of the attack rather than specific attacks, one may resist a punch to later receives double damage from... another punch. For example we can't gave dark type pkm resistance to sleep manip due being immune to hypnosis when they are still vulnerable to sleep powder and yawn. Going by giving resistance for every attack categorized as x type will grant absurd stuff like natural weaponry or martial arts.

this makes more sense, thanks for the explanation

 

[CloverDragon03]

Option 1.5 makes the most sense to me.

Though, I feel like Dragon type moves could fall under some form of Energy Projection since they often involve using some kind of draconic energy to attack

 

[Antoniofer]

The other in what the type system may be based are in the typical rpg types of damage: cutting, impact and thrust. For example, most bug type attacks involve cutting and thrust attacks, and rock and steel types, pkm that tends to have a natural armor, are resistent to that kind of damage, and fighting type, with most attack causing impact damage, causes more damage to more solid structure ice, rock and steel. Of course, this also falls short due normal type, as few attacks are impact type, yet they cause little damage to both rock and steel pkm.

So pkm having access to Plate's energy that determinate their resistances and weaknesses has more sense to explain that typing system; although how verse equalization works, is not necessary means that only pkm will benefit/suffer from the typing: for example a dark type can still be resist to psichic energy from another verse, independently of its effects, but is still vulnerable to magic that case sleep or manipulate the body of the pkm (as tk would do)... actually, they may even be more vulnerable to those attacks, depending if one interprete fairy typing as magic.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Dragon tends to be magic, but it manifests in a different way than fairy magic. The reason Altarai is a dragon type in Gen 3 is because of this.

Leaning towards 1.5 myelf

 

[Lou_change]

The pkm resists more the nature of the attack rather than specific attacks, one may resist a punch to later receives double damage from... another punch. For example we can't gave dark type pkm resistance to sleep manip due being immune to hypnosis when they are still vulnerable to sleep powder and yawn. Going by giving resistance for every attack categorized as x type will grant absurd stuff like natural weaponry or martial arts.

For the punch argument there is a good bit more context you aren’t sharing all moves have a certain typing for a reason. Resistance to status move work differently from normal resistances. As for martial arts it’s a bit weird but most seem to contain chi and almost(I don’t remember if this is the case for all normal type moves) all natural weapon using moves glow with the types energy.

 

[QuasiYuri]

The pkm resists more the nature of the attack rather than specific attacks, one may resist a punch to later receives double damage from... another punch. For example we can't gave dark type pkm resistance to sleep manip due being immune to hypnosis when they are still vulnerable to sleep powder and yawn. Going by giving resistance for every attack categorized as x type will grant absurd stuff like natural weaponry or martial arts.

Exactly my stand on the subject.

I think the types Resistance shouldn't be linked to the actual effect, but rather to the move's "origin".

To take an example using Sound Manipulation and Pikachu.

If a sound attack is used on him by like, screaming; he would just take regular damage.
If a sound attack was made using Steel (something he resists), he would take less damage from it.

I think it makes more sense and is overall easier than focusing on each move's own inner working.

Without mentionning Normal/Fighting/Fly types, there's some like Dark types moves, which, while having actual darkness manip by times, actually is "Evil type", and has some moves which are just the user being a pragmatic scum.

 

[Arceus0x]

Btw hypnosis isn't resisted by anyone. Hypnosis can hit dark types.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I also think we should remove what's the """resistance""" and just type it as Damage reduction. Lot's of times Pokémon have been defeated from moves they resist, and Pokémon verse definition of resistance =/= ours.

Only thing that would count as real Resistance is stuff like Ice Types resisting Absolute Zero or Steel Types being resistant to poison.

 

[Antoniofer]

Yeah, if typing does not affect the probrability from which a character is affected by status effect and/or its duration then is not resistance, is just damage reduction. Its only resistance for electric, fire, ice and poison types, as they are immune to the status ailments of paralysis, burning, freezing and poison respectively, and fairies and dark pkm being resistent (immune) to psychic energy and draconic energy (?); ghost is either resistance (immunity) or intangibility, depends of how it works (is how I explained above, and how few attacks works and otherdon't even if they pretty much alike). Flying type would't qualify as damage reduction or resistance, they simply are out of reach from ground type attacks (not much sense since few attacks are ranged, like bone bonemerang).

 

[Lou_change]

Yeah, if typing does not affect the probrability from which a character is affected by status effect and/or its duration then is not resistance, is just damage reduction. Its only resistance for electric, fire, ice and poison types, as they are immune to the status ailments of paralysis, burning, freezing and poison respectively, and fairies and dark pkm being resistent (immune) to psychic energy and draconic energy (?); ghost is either resistance (immunity) or intangibility, depends of how it works (is how I explained above, and how few attacks works and otherdon't even if they pretty much alike). Flying type would't qualify as damage reduction or resistance, they simply are out of reach from ground type attacks (not much sense since few attacks are ranged, like bone bonemerang).

what the heck is this logic if you get burned by fire resistance won’t heal it, the to go further the fact status moves aren’t prevent by immunities meaning it goes a little beyond the plates.

 

[Antoniofer]

I understood that fire types were immune to the burn status just as electric types are immune to paralysis (although there were a time when this was not true for the electric type) and ice type immune to cold, so unless if this changed, fire types are immune to that status ailment (that taking the game at face value, I would argue about fire type pkm being immune to burnings caused by acid or other sources). I do not recall mentioned something about healing tho.

EDIT: Oh, burn status condition is being literally being engulfed in flames rather than suffering from a burn wound, that has more sense.

 

[Lou_change]

I understood that fire types were immune to the burn status just as electric types are immune to paralysis (although there were a time when this was not true for the electric type) and ice type immune to cold, so unless if this changed, fire types are immune to that status ailment (that taking the game at face value, I would argue about fire type pkm being immune to burnings caused by acid or other sources). I do not recall mentioned something about healing tho.

EDIT: Oh, burn status condition is being literally being engulfed in flames rather than suffering from a burn wound, that has more sense.

No status effect can only be done by one type scold, trio beam, freezing glare, and twin needle alone prove that also ground types are immune to thunder wave and would be immune to electricity by this logic too.

 

[Antoniofer]

I think there's misunderstanding, I'm not trying to make pkm that reduces the damage to electricity, fire, ice and poison immune to the paralysis, burn, freezing and poison respectively, just grant resistance to pkm that are immune to those status conditions, i.e, fire type resistence to heat due being fine while engulfed in flames (in top of having damage reduction against heat attacks).

 

[ElixirBlue]

With the OP, I agree with Option 1.5

 

[Rez]

EDIT: Oh, burn status condition is being literally being engulfed in flames rather than suffering from a burn wound, that has more sense.

It's both actually because of moves like scald, scorching sand, steam eruption and ice burn

 

[GyroNutz]

Option 1.5 seems fine, I think Ghost and Flying type moves can be categorised as Ectoplasm/Air Manipulation respectively. Yes, moves like Razor Wind and Twister exist, but air attacks are predominantly Flying type.

 

[Arceus0x]

Option 1.5 seems fine, I think Ghost and Flying type moves can be categorised as Ectoplasm/Air Manipulation respectively. Yes, moves like Razor Wind and Twister exist, but air attacks are predominantly Flying type.

I disagree. Flying type moves include many attacks via wing and beak strikes. Also, acrobatics is a flying type move. It's literally used in cqc by greninja of all people and that means that simply categorizing them as wind attacks would be wrong.
Also Ghost type moves include random stuff and ectoplasm manipulation seems weird to use here as well considering the have light orbs, flames, curses ect.

 

[GyroNutz]

I disagree. Flying type moves include many attacks via wing and beak strikes. Also, acrobatics is a flying type move. It's literally used in cqc by greninja of all people and that means that simply categorizing them as wind attacks would be wrong.

Not all Flying type attacks are air manip, but (nearly) all air moves are Flying type.

 

[Antoniofer]

Flying type's special attacks tend to be air manip, but the physical ones are just natural weapons or high speed tackles.