Pokémon Profile Standards CRT: Stellar Shadows

[Bobsican]

I'm not going to touch the canonically usable stuff yet (in fact if that passes nothing changes, lol), but independently of that, as some may know, the second DLC of Generation 9 introduced a brand new type (sort of), the Stellar-type.

Now, some stuff requires an update to accomodate for it.

First, the Pokémon Profile Standards should clarify how it should be treated for indexing purposes. Considering that it's explicitly all types combined, I think it should just fall in the "Complicated Types" section, aka, resisting it would just fall as a specific non-verse-equalizable "Resistance to Stellar-type moves", even if this'd only be relevant for Terastal Terapagos and Shedinja.

I'd also want to expand a bit on Shedinja, as that one relies on Wonder Guard and Shedinja as a species being still indexed in the game data of Gen 9 and interact as such, however, with the dexit incident removing officially several species from the series per game (including Shedinja), the canonicity of this may be up to debate.

Regarding the Shadow-type, which is mainly relevant for Shadow Lugia (and whoever wants to do specific matchups with Pokémon enhanced by that stuff), considering how it's currently listed for Shadow Lugia, it should fall within the Simple types ("Resistance to Darkness Manipulation"). Whether Terastal Terapagos should be capable of resisting it (for those unaware, its Tera Shell ability lets it manipulate types directly to resist them even if it'd be weak to them otherwise) may be a notable topic for future indexing purposes.

In other news, regarding this section:

• Ghost Types will have Resistance to Trapping Moves

"Trapping Moves" is not only inaccurate, but also vague for anyone not into the verse, for those unaware, this is meant to stand for a sort of effect that renders the one involved unable to escape or switch out to another Pokémon (mainly relevant in Pokémon Trainer battles, and by extension this also includes resisting Power Null to their Size Manipulation to enter Poke Balls by moves such as Mean Look), which is inflicted more justificably speaking by generally restraining the movement of the opponent, but more importantly this isn't only inflictable by moves, but there's some passive ways to do it in the series such as Shadow Tag, Arena Trap, and for the Honedge line and Gholdengo, as well as any Steel-type affected by Trick-or-Treat, Magnet Pull, which aren't classified as moves.

Thus I'd propose a minor wording change to this bit:

• Ghost Types will have Resistance to being restrained even if physically interacted with

This is a quite short CRT, but I'd want to fix these things for some other things I may collaborate on in the future.

 

[FinePoint]

I don't have a significant problem with any of this, and especially agree with the ghost type immunity to trapping being expanded upon.

Shadow and tera type interacting is sort of hard to determine. Terapagos can resist all normal types, but shadow type isn't exactly a normal type so
I think it would be safer not to assume anything. That is: I don't think we should assume stellar type takes 2x from shadow, but I don't think we should assume the opposite either. I think since they're so canonically separate, we should treat shadow and stellar as interacting normally with no resistance/bonus.

 

[Bobsican]

Uh... Stellar as a type has no defensive traits (beyond becoming "weak" to that type, even though that's more so out of being in a Terastallized state), any Pokémon that Terastallizes into Stellar retains their regular typing (in fact, a Pokémon that has Stellar as a proper typing is impossible without hacking as any means to override a base typing into Stellar such as Protean, Libero, and Conversion 2 fail), so for example, a Terastallized Stellar Hisuian Zoroark is still treated as a Normal/Ghost-type (and thus is weak to Dark, resists Poison and Bug, and is "immune" to Normal, Fighting and Ghost), so there's no interaction of this sort in the first place.

That bit was more so focusing on Terapagos's Tera Shell ability, which is an ability rather than a typing in itself, I felt that was worth bringing up considering the sufficient tangentiability of the topic.

I don't think Stellar should be resisted by any type (in fact, as brought up in the OP, the proposal for that would only apply to Terastal Terapagos and Shedinja out of their abilities enabling to do so), as such type is not resisted by any type otherwise.

 

[FinePoint]

Uh... Stellar as a type has no defensive traits (beyond becoming "weak" to that type, even though that's more so out of being in a Terastallized state),

That bit was more so focusing on Terapagos's Tera Shell ability, which is an ability rather than a typing in itself, I felt that was worth bringing up considering the sufficient tangentiability of the topic.

I actually didn't know that. I didn't play competitively like usual in this generation, so my knowledge is mostly from PokeDoku and the show.
My assumption was that it made moves other than stellar moves neutral.

Let me modify then:
Shadow moves should still not do double damage to Terapagos through Tera Shell.
The ability mentions that it contains the power of each type, but that is not the actual effect.
If all it were was a combination of every type, then it would be weak to Rock and Steel, which is not true.
Instead, it explicitly changes the incoming attack to be not very effective- so a Shadow move should still do half damage.

 

[Flashlight237]

I mean, would the Stellar Type really change anything in regards to this kinda stuff? It doesn't override or add onto any types, it has no defensive properties, and it's only offensive property is that it's super effective against Terastalized Pokemon.

Also, Shadow is not a type, it's a state kinda like a curse. It's only strong against non-shadow mons specifically in XD unlike in Colosseum where Shadow anything has no special properties besides it being some dark energy imbued into Pokemon.

 

[Bobsican]

I mean, would the Stellar Type really change anything in regards to this kinda stuff? It doesn't override or add onto any types, it has no defensive properties, and it's only offensive property is that it's super effective against Terastalized Pokemon.

Also, Shadow is not a type, it's a state kinda like a curse. It's only strong against non-shadow mons specifically in XD unlike in Colosseum where Shadow anything has no special properties besides it being some dark energy imbued into Pokemon.

It's really mainly relevant for Terapagos and Shedinja (in terms of resisting it) as explained in the OP, and as a reference if it ever comes up in versus threads.

What do you propose should be done on the Shadow stuff then?

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Imaginym]

Uh... Stellar as a type has no defensive traits (beyond becoming "weak" to that type, even though that's more so out of being in a Terastallized state), any Pokémon that Terastallizes into Stellar retains their regular typing (in fact, a Pokémon that has Stellar as a proper typing is impossible without hacking as any means to override a base typing into Stellar such as Protean, Libero, and Conversion 2 fail), so for example, a Terastallized Stellar Hisuian Zoroark is still treated as a Normal/Ghost-type (and thus is weak to Dark, resists Poison and Bug, and is "immune" to Normal, Fighting and Ghost), so there's no interaction of this sort in the first place.

That bit was more so focusing on Terapagos's Tera Shell ability, which is an ability rather than a typing in itself, I felt that was worth bringing up considering the sufficient tangentiability of the topic.

I could swear there was some special dialogue for Terapagos's damage reduction in its boss battle.

I don't recall what it says in a regular battle in gameplay.


Checking, the boss battle is referred to in 1 piece of dialogue as Terapagos in its "Fully Awakened Form".
Briar also notes it's "using a barrier to reduce damage".

Okay, not much else on that front. Thought it might be relevant, given Terapagos, IIRC, has to Terastallize Tera Stellar to take on that form? (Maybe the boss version is different? It does repeatedly Absorb Terastal Energy to recreate its barrier.)


On the topic of Shadow Pokemon, IIRC, their state has something to do with "their heart being closed off" or something.

There's A LOT of other Terastallization stuff to go over, but that's not for this thread, I think.

 

[Bobsican]

I could swear there was some special dialogue for Terapagos's damage reduction in its boss battle.

I don't recall what it says in a regular battle in gameplay.

"The opposing Terapagos made its shell gleam! It's distorting type matchups!"

It says the exact same thing in normal gameplay as that's not something exclusive to the boss battle.

Checking, the boss battle is referred to in 1 piece of dialogue as Terapagos in its "Fully Awakened Form".
Briar also notes it's "using a barrier to reduce damage".

Okay, not much else on that front. Thought it might be relevant, given Terapagos, IIRC, has to Terastallize Tera Stellar to take on that form? (Maybe the boss version is different? It does repeatedly Absorb Terastal Energy to recreate its barrier.)

Oh, that's a separate thing altogether, wild Terastallized Pokémon can put up barriers and stuff, as seen in Tera Raid Battles. As shown in the previous link above what's being brought up here is the Tera Shell ability, speaking of which it's clear there's some confusion here on which of Terapagos's formes has such ability.

Base Terapagos (its out of battle forme) has the Tera Shift ability, which makes it change to its Terastal forme upon entering battle.

Terastal Terapagos is the one with Tera Shell.

Stellar Terapagos is Terastal Terapagos after Terastallizing, at which point its ability changes again, namely to Teraform Zero.

Meaning that the stuff involving Tera Shell would only apply to Terastal Terapagos and not its other formes.

On the topic of Shadow Pokemon, IIRC, their state has something to do with "their heart being closed off" or something.

Yeah, it doesn't seem to be a proper type in itself but rather an "enhancement" that overrides a type to be otherwise typeless, although Tera Shell does work on typeless moves to render them not very effective.

There's A LOT of other Terastallization stuff to go over, but that's not for this thread, I think.

Yeah, although that may be interesting to discuss in the general discussion thread.

 

[Imaginym]

"The opposing Terapagos made its shell gleam! It's distorting type matchups!"

It says the exact same thing in normal gameplay as that's not something exclusive to the boss battle.


Oh, that's a separate thing altogether, wild Terastallized Pokémon can put up barriers and stuff, as seen in Tera Raid Battles, as shown in the previous link above what's being brought up here is the Tera Shell ability. Speaking of which it's clear there's some confusion here on which of Terapagos's formes has such ability.

Yeah. I alluded to that in saying:

There's A LOT of other Terastallization stuff to go over, but that's not for this thread, I think.

But thank you very much nonetheless.

Base Terapagos (its out of battle forme) has the Tera Shift ability, which makes it change to its Terastal forme upon entering battle.

Terastal Terapagos is the one with Tera Shell.

Stellar Terapagos is Terastal Terapagos after Terastallizing, at which point its ability changes again, namely to Teraform Zero.

Meaning that the stuff involving Tera Shell would only apply to Terastal Terapagos and not its other formes.


Yeah, it doesn't seem to be a proper type in itself but rather an "enhancement" that overrides a type to be otherwise typeless, although Tera Shell does work on typeless moves to render them not very effective.

Overrides a type, you mean for the moves Tera Starstorm & Tera Blast, right?

Yeah, although that may be interesting to discuss in the general discussion thread.

Mmm.

AtM, tired, but I think I may have gone in depth about them back when S/V were newer. Maybe I can find my post about it.

 

[Bobsican]

Yeah. I alluded to that in saying:

But thank you very much nonetheless.

I'd think that it'd be best to merge this stuff to a proper Pokémon Physiology page, rather than doing yet another verse-specific P&A that'd be a subset of that.

Overrides a type, you mean for the moves Tera Starstorm & Tera Blast, right?

I meant that bit for the Shadow move stuff, Stellar-type moves don't behave as typeless, as notably typeless moves aren't boosted by Tera Stellar.

 

[Imaginym]

I'd think that it'd be best to merge this stuff to a proper Pokémon Physiology page, rather than doing yet another verse-specific P&A that'd be a subset of that.

This stuff as in what you proposed in the OP, or the stuff about Terastallization?

I meant that bit for the Shadow move stuff, Stellar-type moves don't behave as typeless, as notably typeless moves aren't boosted by Tera Stellar.

Hunh.
So Typeless moves aren't boosted by Tera Stellar at all, but Stellar type moves are boosted by Tera Stellar?

 

[Bobsican]

This stuff as in what you proposed in the OP, or the stuff about Terastallization?

Latter.

Hunh.
So Typeless moves aren't boosted by Tera Stellar at all, but Stellar type moves are boosted by Tera Stellar?

Correct.

 

[Lou_change]

Bulbapedia says, "Shadow moves have no type and display a blank space where the type would normally go on the summary and battle screens." Struggle and confusion damage are typeless and ignore tera shell.
Plus even before shadow moves did super effective damage it bypassed wonder guard as shown by shadow rush the only ability released at the time to effect damage taken that wasn't type specific.

 

[Bobsican]

Yeah, that makes sense, so:

- Shadow moves don't interact with Tera Shell (or Tera Stellar by extension of being typeless) and aren't resisted by anything in the verse but themselves, with such resistance being labeled as a resistance to Darkness Manipulation (would this imply that all Pokémon are weak to regular Darkness Manipulation for the purposes of verse equalization?).

- Stellar gets labeled as a complex type ("Resistance to Stellar-type moves"), which is only particularly relevant for Terapagos and Shedinja as explained in the OP.

- Trapping gets reworked as noted in the OP to being more elaborate.

The only thing left to settle is if Shadow moves leave precedent-wise a weakness to all Pokémon to Darkness Manip by verse equalization or not.

 

[Lou_change]

Shadow moves don't interact with Tera Shell (or Tera Stellar by extension of being typeless) and aren't resisted by anything in the verse but themselves

Shadow Pokémon resist them, not the moves themselves

with such resistance being labeled as a resistance to Darkness Manipulation (would this imply that all Pokémon are weak to regular Darkness Manipulation for the purposes of verse equalization?).

no every shadow move in pokemon XD mentions dark aura or dark energy likely in reference to that aura. The dark aura the Pokémon have is invisible without special means detect it so it's not normal darkness.

 

[Bobsican]

Shadow Pokémon resist them, not the moves themselves

You know what I mean, lol

no every shadow move in pokemon XD mentions dark aura or dark energy likely in reference to that aura. The dark aura the Pokémon have is invisible without special means detect it so it's not normal darkness.

So you're proposing that it should be a complex type of sorts that still happens to include Darkness Manip? Kinda like how Psychic often has Telekinesis yet is just labeled as a complex type.

 

[Lou_change]

Pretty much

 

[Imaginym]

Yeah, that makes sense, so:

- Shadow moves don't interact with Tera Shell (or Tera Stellar by extension of being typeless) and aren't resisted by anything in the verse but themselves, with such resistance being labeled as a resistance to Darkness Manipulation (would this imply that all Pokémon are weak to regular Darkness Manipulation for the purposes of verse equalization?).

It could just be Game Mechanics.
Plus, there may stuff to go over about how Shadow Pokemon are vicious, with their hearts closed off & willing to attack indiscriminately, IIRC.

Shadow Pokémon resist them, not the moves themselves


no every shadow move in pokemon XD mentions dark aura or dark energy likely in reference to that aura. The dark aura the Pokémon have is invisible without special means detect it so it's not normal darkness.

Pokemon being weak to Shadows in 1 side-game not even developed by GF would also contradict Pokemon being able to resist Darkness based moves like Dark Pulae, Max Darkness & Night Daze. (Though, ND is described as a "pitch-black shockwave" & also only Zorua, Zoroark & Lunala learn it.)

Unsure if many of the Ghost-type moves (Like Shadow Punch, Shadow Sneak, Shadow Force, Shadow Ball, etc.) have any relation to this.

 

[Bobsican]

I'm quite sure that there being overlap on darkness stuff for Dark- and Ghost-type moves is the reason they are considered complex types (and thus not verse equalizable), so the same principle should also apply to Shadow moves.

Gotta wait now for another mod to approve the current conclusions.

 

[Lou_change]

Latter.

Unfortunately tera is reliant on an external source of energy like dynamax

 

[Bobsican]

I suppose that's a good point.

 

[Imaginym]

What about making Terastallization stuff part of a separate key? Plus, don't we have a page for Dynamax anyway?

 

[Bobsican]

A verse-specific P&A page of its own would be best, only Terapagos in particular would need a separate key for its Stellar forme out of scaling reasons.

 

[Bobsican]

Gotta wait now for another mod to approve the current conclusions.

Bump.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Thoughts are more or less similar to FinePoints