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Pokemon Non-Physical Interaction removal

The_Smashor

The_Smashor

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Basically, this is for the removal of Non-Physical Interaction from all Pokemon profiles (Within reason) and intangibility from ghost types (Once again, within reason). I'm terrible at making CRTs so I'll just quote some of the comments on the thread that inspired this.

Let me put it this way, certain Pokemon getting hurt is an inconsistency. Unless you wanna say natural storms have NPI as well. This simply shows that even Spirit-like Ghost mons can enter a non-intangible form (as we know these beings can grab and make contact with Physical objects.
...getting hurt by sand is a GM. Doesn't make Weather Damage as a whole a GM.
The thing is, immunities in Pokemon are completely arbitrary. Is there any reason for Fairies to be immune to Dragon Types? Is there any reason at all that Jigglypuff can take a Draco Meteor without a scratch? Is there a reason that you can't hit a Dodrio with an Earthquake? No. No there isn't. They simply have an extreme resistance to those powers, and this is no exception.
I also agree with Smashor, weaknesses in pokemon are purely arbitrary and most of them do not work outside game mechanics.
No, the spirits are physical
To summarize,

Ghost Types can get hit by natural sand and hail, and it makes no sense for those to have non-physical interaction.

The few times we see actual ghosts throughout the series, they are shown to be completely different from ghost types.

Ghosts are commonly seen interacting with physical objects

Ghost's immunities to Fighting and Normal are likely no different from Fairy's immunity to Dragon or Ground's immunity to Electric.
 
Now that this is on an actual CRT, we can deal with this more appropriately.

But just to note, all of this was countered in the last thread. Like everything in the OP.

>Let me put it this way, certain Pokemon getting hurt is an inconsistency. Unless you wanna say natural storms have NPI as well. This simply shows that even Spirit-like Ghost mons can enter a non-intangible form (as we know these beings can grab and make contact with Physical objects.)

This wasnt addressed before, but I have a severe problem with "certain pokemon getting hurt is an inconsistency". Why is it only for certai pokemon? This is making it sound more convienent to say only some getting hurt is a legitimate inconsistency while for others its just fine. But more to the point, why is it that natural disasters is suddenly a counter against someone being intangible? No one answered me this in the last thread, but we don't get rid of someones intangiblity just because a stronger characters attack obliterates them. Like if a tier 8 intangible dies from a 5-B attack. So why would natural disasters be any different?

>The thing is, immunities in Pokemon are completely arbitrary. Is there any reason for Fairies to be immune to Dragon Types? Is there any reason at all that Jigglypuff can take a Draco Meteor without a scratch? Is there a reason that you can't hit a Dodrio with an Earthquake? No. No there isn't. They simply have an extreme resistance to those powers, and this is no exception.

This is a point I countered myself with my own argument.

"Again, false equivalence for ground and flying types and I already explained this above. Flying types like Dodrio being "immune" to ground type moves is nothing but bullshit since the "immunity" comes from flying types being able to fly out of a ground types move range for...well...flying. Its not that they're actually immune to the moves. Obviously you are right that this wouldn't be immunity either way, just resistance, but this resistance is more based off avoiding a move instead of no-selling it.

Ghosts types are completely different from this since their "immunity" comes from actually being able to no-sell move types as being untouchable by them. Like how you can't affect what isnt there, you also cant affect what you cannot touch. So in this sense, its an immunity like how we treat immunity here. We give immunities based on what isnt there and what can't be effected."

>No, the spirits are physical

Again, was countered by me.

"They most definitely aren't, especially when ghost types have been flat out shown to be intangible to other souls. Or did Haunter phasing through Ash and Pikachu's souls get forgotten?"

So based on the arguments used, im very much disagreeing with removing NPI from Pokemon.
 
Intangibility is not really related to AP, not the spiritual/ethereal one, so no matter what tier one can be, if its unable to damage immaterial beings then it will never cause damage. The reason comes from, if hail (simply ice falling from sky) and sandstorm can damage ghost type pokemon, then they aren't intangible (at least, not all the time).
 
Antoniofer said:
Intangibility is not really related to AP, not the spiritual/ethereal one, so no matter what tier one can be, if its unable to damage immaterial beings then it will never cause damage. The reason comes from, if hail (simply ice falling from sky) and sandstorm can damage ghost type pokemon, then they aren't intangible (at least, not all the time).
Click to expand...
The reason im bringing that up actually is strictly because of this thread that I remembered. Gengar got stomped by Vegeta strictly because of an AP difference, even with being intangible and thats where this idea of intangibility being related to AP came to me.
 
I tell you, AP wouldn't make someone interact with immaterial beings. It can help against Elemental Intangibility (as is still material) and yet one woukd need AoE attacks, but it would help you interacting with spirits.
 
So then my question remains. Would a 8-C spirit being able to survive a 5-B or even 4-A level attack that destroys a planet or solar system then?
 
I have honestly no idea of what to say except, well, that they're ghosts. That's it. Obviously stuff like Banette or Aegislash shouldn't have intangibility due to possessing objects (kinda like bound stands), but outside of that, I think we should keep NPI.
 
Can the 5-B or 4-B attack damage spiritual beings? Yes? Then they can damage the intangible being. No? Then the ghost, wraith, ethereal being its same.
 
Interesting. For the sake of argument and not getting off topic, i'll concede to that point. However, there are still other issues with ghost types being able to be hurt by things like the weather.

For one, this is cherry picking whats inconsistent and whats not for the sake of convienency to save an argument. Tier 7 beings cannot be harmed by such weather phenonemna in the slightest. If you're arguing that a ghost type like gengar or Chandelure can be hurt by sand or hail, even ones not caused by pokemon moves, why aren't you arguing that them even being tier 7 at all is inconsistent then? If you aren't going to argue that they can be legitimately harmed by weather forces such as these, forces than beings far below tier 7 can survive, then you cannot use weather as an argument against them being intangible for it being straight up cherry picking.

Two, even if we ignore the previous point, an argument the OP uses actually debunks itself. In quotes:

"Let me put it this way, certain Pokemon getting hurt is an inconsistency. Unless you wanna say natural storms have NPI as well. This simply shows that even Spirit-like Ghost mons can enter a non-intangible form (as we know these beings can grab and make contact with Physical objects.)"

Look at the bolded part. If the ghost mon in question is becoming physical to grab an object or make contact with it, then why is the weather like hail or sandstorms even being used as an argument in the first place? It's a battle. A ghost mon will obviously become physical when trying to attack and defeat an opponent. So the weather being able to damage them, even if we ignore the flaws of not arguing it to be an obvious outlier, is not an anti-feat according to this.
 
Is point is not how much damage it cause the weather, but that it simply can. If you are an spirit, you shouldn't be affected by weather, as one it made of matter and the other not (at least, not physical matter).

Also, we aren't questioning few ghost type pokemon having intangibility, but rather, not having intangibility all the time. If they are tangible at least half of the time, other pokemon do not need NPI to touch them. Unless you known an instance when a pokemon turn intangible and then some other pokemon affect it while the last one was intangible, then they shouldn't habe NPI.
 
>Is point is not how much damage it cause the weather, but that it simply can. If you are an spirit, you shouldn't be affected by weather, as one it made of matter and the other not (at least, not physical matter).

And I would understand this point more if the weather in question was actually strong enough to harm these guys and not be so weak that an ordinary human can survive it, even with minimal struggle. The point is, you cannot selectively choose what the weather can and cannot do as far as effecting a target, especially when the target is in a tier that would not be harmed by it in the absolute slightest. Basically, unless you want to downgrade these guys below Tier 7 in general, the weather argument is an inconsistency that needs to be passed off completely. Its either one or the other.

>If they are tangible at least half of the time, other pokemon do not need NPI to touch them. Unless you known an instance when a pokemon turn intangible and then some other pokemon affect it while the last one was intangible, then they shouldn't habe NPI.

Unless we're going to ignore common sense and just assume a ghost type wont turn intangible in an effort to no-sell an enemy's attack, this really shouldnt need to be proven.
 
My main question is whether or not these ghost typed are shown to be normally intangible as opposed to just "is ghost".
 
Wokistan said:
My main question is whether or not these ghost typed are shown to be normally intangible as opposed to just "is ghost".
Click to expand...
Well ghost types in pokemon have shown that they are able to even phase through other ghosts (like Haunter phasing through Ash and Pikachus souls). And without even doing anything, they're intangible to normal and fighting moves already.

I dont see anything that suggests they aren't normally intangible.
 
In fact, I just remembered. The S&M anime has blatantly shown ghost types being able to even phase through each others bodies and enter their insides.
 
5% is made of solid matter to being affected is still factible, also, poisonous gas is still material and can still be affected by weather (I think it was poisonous gas).

Ghost types phasing throw other ghost types sounds paradoxical if we consider any one of them intangible, take into account that we do not questioning their intangibility, but that all of them aren't intangible and that there hasn't been a pokemon that interact with an intangible (spiritualy) pokemon.
 
Ghost Pokemon are consistently shown to be phasing through walls/other solid objects, are immune to 'basic' attacks and have Pokédex entries supporting how some of them are, in fact, real ghosts. And in all forms of media, they are affected by attacks that aren't of the normal or fighting type. If you think ghosts taking hail or sand damage in-game is more solid than ghosts phasing through walls in both the games and non-game continuities, along with the other evidences of intangibility they have, then that's just petty.

Being intangible doesn't mean the ghost can't interact with physical objects, just like how ghosts can punch perfectly tangible characters.
 
Now that I remember, in Pokemon Origins people argued that ghost type pokemon aren't the same thing as real ghost, and Red's Charmeleon was unable to damage the Marowak's ghost (It used Scratch according to Red's order, but it was clearly infused with fire).
 
Yeah, that's the main problem, game mechanics. And no, once revealed by the Sylp googles (or something), Marowak is treat as ground type.
 
PaChi2 said:
And... Is Marowak's ghost a ghost type?
Click to expand...
Doesnt matter. It's to disprove the "cant interact with Marowaks ghost" bit when you can.

Also no, you can't say its not game mechanics for ghost types to be damaged by weather conditions but then suddenly say its game mechanics when a pokemon battles against Marowaks ghost to suit you.
 
Antoniofer said:
5% is made of solid matter
Click to expand...
Games say otherwise:

"Its thin body is made of gas. Despite lacking substance, it can envelop an opponent of any size and cause suffocation."

"It's said that gas emanating from a graveyard was possessed by the grievances of the deceased and thus became a Pokémon."

"Poisonous gas comprises 95% of its body. It's said that the remaining 5% is made up of the souls of those who died from the gas."

"Said to appear in decrepit, deserted buildings. It has no real shape, as it appears to be made of a gas."
 
So when the 5% of Gastly was argued to be solid matter, it's not hitting souls. But when it was debunked and proven to be souls instead of solid matter, it's suddenly "more gas than souls"?
 
Shut up, baka

Of course it's more gas then souls. It literally says that. Also I think most of us forgot about that part of the pokedex
 
Silph Scope only make ghosts visible, nothing more.

Stad: An item that makes ghosts clearly distinguishable.
FRLG: A scope that makes unseeable Pokémon visible. It is made by Silph Co.
E: Silph Co's scope makes unseeable Pokémon visible.
PE: A scope that lets you see what cannot usually be seen. It is made by Silph Co.
 
These are not non-physical interaction with ghosts, so I'm fine with them. All I want is a lack of non-physical interaction because of ghosts.

Also only Pokemon who scale to 7-A would get NPI from Rotom.
 
I'm hesitant to bring this up (Because some of us might call it game mechanics & so it'd feel like a non-contribution.), but.... In Pokemon Amie & Refresh, many kinds of Pokemon have distinct effects on the "hand" when attempting to "pet" the Pokemon.

Spiky Pokemon hurt to try & pet, fiery/hot or cold Pokemon have parts that burn or freeze the hand... & a lot of Ghost-type Pokemon make it see-through, & there's a distinctly different feel.

Just off of the top of my head for example, the dark sections of Trevenant, most or all of Misdreavus's body.

Based on that, I'd say there's something there. For all I know though, it could be meant to imply you could see your hand if it were to go inside of the Pokemon.

And AFAIK (Although I haven't looked into this much as I should have.), most Pokemon can still react to & appreciate being petted. So if it is intangibility where you can literally stick your hand in them, it's apparent the Pokemon can still feel the motions. Although, whether that's due to accuracy or GameFreak being too lazy to make Ghost Pokemon bodies swirl around if you wave your hand in them, I dunno.

Nonetheless, I doubt GF would have made so many Pokemon share such a commonality if it weren't of some significance.

Not the strongest evidence, but I'd be incredulous there isn't other evidence for this case. (Not that my incredulity itself is good support either.)
 
Just saying that 75% of the stuff that talks about ghosts and the souls of the damned in the Pokédex should be positively discarded as urban legend bullshit and shouldn't be in the profiles. Take a look at the Kadabra and Banette entries if you wanna know why. Thank you. Probably Cubone too.
 
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