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Pokemon: God Tiers Ability Revisions

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@22Easy I wasn't technically wrong with that since that is one of the 2 definitions of the word.

@Monarch I just noticed that a long while ago after searching its definition myself and thanks for the heads up though.

@Professor Mk, good to hear.
 
1 thing I want to throw in..

What's up with the immortal vai godness anyway? Isn't that the same as saying, "I am cus I am?" Wouldn't most just double up with longevity anyway? It's not like the trio can't be killed by a 2-A being anyway... and ya they normally aren't called gods sure they did make everything but the word god isn't used and from my observations that's the most important part of it.
 
To speed the thread along, I'll make a list of what has been decided so far.

Being removed:

  • Concept Manip for CT (Arceus is still being discussed)
  • Non-Corporeality for Dialga/Palkia
  • Chaos Manip for Arceus
  • Resistance to Power Mimicry for Arceus
  • Law Manip for Arceus
Staying:

  • All LT abilities (Info Manip is still being discussed)
  • Resistance to Mind Manip
  • Heal Block
  • Dream Manip
 
Non-corpeality is still a thing for Dialga/Palkia, just noted to be in their true forms (which, no offense, should be unnecessary because of common sense).

Law manip is actually still being discussed a bit. What were the reasons for removing it again? Same thing for Chaos manipulation.
 
@Professor

Law Manip removal comes from the fact that Arceus got it by being a creator god. Being a creator god isn't enough to get law manipulation.

Chaos Manipulation removal comes from the fact that Arceus got it by spawning into primordial chaos, which doesn't warrant chaos manipulation.
 
The latter I'm not sure why it isn't enough? If he was the chaos itself and spawned himself into being, then he should be manipupating chaos.

The former I get more but IIRC it was for more than just beinf a creator god, but rather actually establishing the laws of the verse. Hence the previous note that noted this on Arceus's page before it got removed. Though if Cals fine with taking it away, i'll step back.
 
Even so, someone had to manipulate that chaos to give it shape/form. And who else would be able to do that if not the very being it becomes?

That said, fair enough on the chaos manip then. I'm not going to push for it any more than I've had.
 
I mostly agree with Assalt and also believe dismissing every single low end as "PIS" is the opposite of honesty.
 
Low ends are not the same as PIS, unless you believe we should drop outliers and inflate everyone to the highest they've ever been at just because of "it's definitely CIS/PIS/WIS/DIS/MIS/KIS". Not saying you do, but it's still what that implies.
 
Low-ends are things that are simply feats taken in a minimalistic aproach or a weaker feat than the one being used, no?

How is that equal to PIS or an outlier?
 
I guess I finally gotta respond to this...

Conceptual Manipulation: In what way did Arceus manipulate the already existing concepts to create "another" Creation trio? The CT are their concepts; how could Arceus create another set? Either way it still isn't the offensive concept manip that people use in VS debates.

>Firstly, I wanna say that I'm personally against the idea that there should be different types of concept manipulation. We have Creation equaling destruction for literally everything else and separating it here feels disingenuous. I also wanna say this about the concept manipulation of the god tiers and the validity of manipulation. It isn't baseless, it's putting two and two together and making obvious connections. Take Dialga. He's the concept of time incarnate and has shown to control every aspect of time to his whim. Calling hi just another average time manipulator would be blatantly false. About the Arceus thing, Arceus can create another set of the concepts of time and space because lolfiction. He turned a bunch of Unown into another Palkia, Dialga, or Giratina.

Void Manipulation: I know they create a Void. That isn't enough. They create a void by obliterating space-time, not be manipulating an already existing Void. Like I said, the destruction they show is merely them using powers they already have, not an additional power.

>Still a void though...

Immortality: You kind of do need to go over this. Why are the CT immortal via godhood? Where does this godhood come from? What of Arceus' Type 9?

>Because they're gods and they're immortal. Arceus's type 9 comes from the llama being a physical manifestation and the awareness, that being the Original Spirit, is all around, in every person and Pokémon.

Soul Manipulation: The crux of all the soul manipulation arguments is that that LT created the souls of the Multiverse. Where is your evidence for this? They embody emotion, will, and knowledge, and thus let the Multiverse have these qualities; when have they ever been stated to create literal souls?

>I feel like someone already answered this farther down, so I'll skip this for now. If not, tell me and I'll post the scan.

Causality: Can we get the textdump of this? Also unless the entire plot of Arceus and the Jewel of Life was wrong, the Pokemon have directly shown follow causal progression.

>As they said, inconsistency, not PIS, as I've been told.

"Spirit" Destruction: Your interpretation is as much of an interpretation as mine. Only difference is your interpretation gives them a crazy ability they never show otherwise. If they had Thisbe ability they would be the counter to the Lake Trio, not the other way around. This was a universe bust that achieved what Cyrus wanted.

Immeasurable: It completely depends what the abstract shows. For Dialga it is completely contrary to what is shown. Dialga isn't higher-D and he isn't "beyond time". I don't even know where that "travels beyond time" comes from.

>Dialga isn't higher-D. I'm...not even going to touch this, it's so wrong. How is it even contrary to what's shown?

Arceus

Non-Corp: No, this is your interpretation. You decided that the "Orginal Spirit" is some kind of non-corporeal force that Arceus is an avatar of. As far as I am aware there is zero evidence for this and such an assumption is purely speculation. Show me one time where Arceus has appeared non-corporeal.

>"Could that Pokémon be the physical form of the original spirit?"

-Hiker who's been studying legends and has the most information on Arceus period


Dream Manip: I can see the implications here, but it should be "likely" since this isn't confirmed.

>I mean, I guess I can compromise with "likely"...

All Attacks: So because he used attacks from his plate rulings he knows every attack? This is stretching and you know it, Cal. Also no, Arceus didn't create the concept of types. He created the fundamental framework of the Multiverse that allows for types.

>Second part is false as it's heavily implied that the Plates are the concept of types. Again, put two and two together. One thing I'm getting tired of with this site is the inability to be logical and instead having to go by explicits unless the verse is tier 1.

Magnetism Manipulation: I can make a magnet. That doesn't give me magnetism manipulation. The way he made it matters, and we don't know that.

>You and I both know you can't make a magnet.

Mind Manipulation: Are the Lake Trio truly facets of Arceus? They are creations, but I have never seen evidence of them being outright factors. Even if they are, he wouldn't use this in-character.

>With the in character stuff, if we used that as an argument to determine people's hax, Lucemon becomes slightly more than a Dragon Ball villain. Also, you need to read the Sinnoh myths more.

Physics Manipulation: The Distortion World has weird physics. This does not mean that Arceus can manipulate the physics of an already-established universe.

>Except Arceus creates both, the physics of the normal world and the warped physics of the Distortion World. Why wouldn't he be capable of changing the physics of the world?

Incorporeal Attacks: Why doesn't Furure Sight grant this? If it does it should be explained that Future Sight grants this.

>I'm...a bit lost with this.

Creation Trio

Heal Block: Its limits should still be stated. If you don't say it caps at High-Mid and say "any healing or Regenerationn" it sounds like this attack has no limits.

>Pretty sure the caveat is already on the profiles...

Non-Corporeality: And ghost types are true non-corporeals since when? They have selective intangibility at best. If ghosts were truly non-corporeal every Pokemon has the ability to hit all non-corporeals. They don't; ghost types are just weird.

>They should though. For example, if every Digimon has the ability to hit nonexistents because they've shown physicality, why would this on a much lesser scale be any different?

Resistance to Mind: OK, that I can get behind. I'm OK with them having mind resistance for the Lake Trio, but not the Red Chains.

>Sure.

Distortion World: Sorry if my point was obscure here. I wasn't challenging the ability, I was pointing out that the evidence is garbage for it. It's just Dialga glowing.

>Gotcha

Lake Trio

Most of this I'm OK with, their pages just need this explanation.

I still want the citation for them creating the souls of the Multiverse.

Also information isn't directly knowledge. Knowledge is knowing, and knowing is a mix of active cognition and memory: neither of which is raw information. Information manipulation is extremely powerful since you could essentially alter fundamental aspects of information, similar to Law/Concept manip.

Also I personally believe that "spirit" is all three LT's aspects.
 
> We have Creation equaling destruction for literally everything else and separating it here feels disingenuous.

Has literally nothing to do with the subject, nor is it relevant to it.
 
NeoZex6399 said:
>Resistance to Mind Manipulation
What Cal said and:

"I guess the Pokémon of the lakes must have gone home. I understand that they can keep balance against either Palkia or Dialga. Does it mean they can't do that with Giratina? ...Oops. This is no time for idle chitchat."


>Void Manipulation

From the official website:

"Cyrus is the boss of Team Galactic, the villainous organization that appeared in Pokémon Diamond and Pokémon Pearl.
Believing that the human heart is imperfect, Cyrus held a desire to use the power of the Legendary Pokémon Dialga or Palkia to erase the current world and create a perfect new world. He always conducts himself in a cool and logical way, and he is greatly trusted by his subordinates in Team Galactic."
Click to expand...
 
The quote Assalt asked for:

From itself, two beings the Original One did make. Time started to spin. Space began to expand. From itself again, three living things the Original One did make. The two beings wished, and from them, matter came to be. The three living things wished, and from them, spirit came to be.
 
Kepekley23 said:
> We have Creation equaling destruction for literally everything else and separating it here feels disingenuous.

Has literally nothing to do with the subject, nor is it relevant to it.
Click to expand...
Oh, so I can't state my opinion now? Is the first amendment and my right to free speech revoked?

Nah, I'm just messing with you lol. Especially because I know you're not American and the Constitution isn't a thing for you.

In all seriousness, yeah, I know it was unrelated, but I still wanted to say my bit.
 
"Arceus's type 9 comes from the llama being a physical manifestation and the awareness, that being the Original Spirit"

I've yet to see any actual proof of this.
 
The Everlasting said:
"Arceus's type 9 comes from the llama being a physical manifestation and the awareness, that being the Original Spirit"

I've yet to see any actual proof of this.
Click to expand...
I literally just posted the quote...
 
The real cal howard said:
The quote Assalt asked for:
From itself, two beings the Original One did make. Time started to spin. Space began to expand. From itself again, three living things the Original One did make. The two beings wished, and from them, matter came to be. The three living things wished, and from them, spirit came to be.
Click to expand...
Also, in the games the souls are always called spirits, and the Ghost World (Spirit World in Japanese) was mentioned for first time in gen 4.

"The spirits burned up in its ominous flame lose their way and wander this world forever." ~Chandelure

"The antenna on its head captures radio waves from the world of spirits that command it to take people there" ~Dusknoir
 
I have not seen a quote that Arceus is the avatar of the "Original Spirit", assuming that's even a separate character to begin with.

As Azzy said earlier

"The phrase "original spirit" is used once, and only to describe the non-physical form of the pokemon who shaped the world, which is Arceus. It is immediately followed by saying the "spirit" made time and space, which we know Arceus did. I don't think it's referring to something else."

Why can it not simply be the non-corporeal form of Arceus? Why does it have to be an entirely separate entity that Arceus is an avatar of?
 
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