- 40,459
- 12,940
You mean yet another inconsistency the tertiary cano pumped out? Especially due to what you're talking about being contradicted in that very game?Kepekley23 said:
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Pokemon: God Tiers Ability Revisions
- Thread starter Assaltwaffle
- Start date
- Status
- 10,394
- 3,348
Do we even use primary/secondary/tertiary canon for Pokemon anymore? Because we just use everything these days.
- 40,459
- 12,940
@Ever. Of course. Games like the core series + connected spinoffs (Colliseum, Snap, Ranger, Battle Revolution) are the primary canon, the anime and Pokemon Adventures are secondary canon, and everything else is tertiary.
- 15,332
- 7,563
"Tertiary canon"
lol Pokémon Mystery Dungeon is 100% canon. It only loses ground if the games clearly contradict it. Explorers of Time clearly shows Dialga not being as beyond time as you believe him to be.
lol Pokémon Mystery Dungeon is 100% canon. It only loses ground if the games clearly contradict it. Explorers of Time clearly shows Dialga not being as beyond time as you believe him to be.
- 40,459
- 12,940
Also, @Kep. Keep in mind that Mystery Dungeon gives Dialga an immeasurable feat too, as Primal Dialga intercepts Celebi's time travel without time travelling himself.
- 40,459
- 12,940
Dude, what? Aside from the obscure stuff and the TCG, Mystery Dungeon holds the least weight of Pokemon series. Don't get me wrong, it holds its fair share, but claiming it's 100% canon? Not even I do that. Sure it only loses ground if the games contradict it, because that's how levels of canon works.Kepekley23 said:
- 15,332
- 7,563
No it doesn't. That is a time hax feat.
https://youtu.be/GUHBmku0PeY?t=5863
Dialga is definitely not beyond time at all. He is helpless against the story changing distortion
This is an explicit low end stacked against lack of evidence.
https://youtu.be/GUHBmku0PeY?t=5863
Dialga is definitely not beyond time at all. He is helpless against the story changing distortion
This is an explicit low end stacked against lack of evidence.
- 15,332
- 7,563
What is this about Mystery Dungeon? It used to be perfectly canon when Charizard's statement was High 6-C. Why is it not usable anymore?
- 40,459
- 12,940
- 40,459
- 12,940
Yeah, nice try. Once again, don't strawman me. I explicitly said it holds its fair share of weight, but loses it if contradicted. Charizard's feat wasn't contradicted.Kepekley23 said:
- 15,332
- 7,563
Yes, he can't. It was explicitly shown and stated in the game. A vague line about the future near the end isn't counter evidence without a feat.
- 40,459
- 12,940
Except you clearly missed the most important part of the scene where '''Dialga brings back the protagonist from causal erasure.'''
- 15,332
- 7,563
Please provide proof, because I don't remember that at all.
The Mystery Dungeon games consistently portray Dialga as being affected by time changes. Extremely constantly. Explorers of Sky's entire plot hinges on it.
The Mystery Dungeon games consistently portray Dialga as being affected by time changes. Extremely constantly. Explorers of Sky's entire plot hinges on it.
- 15,332
- 7,563
Anyway, I'm off to sleep.
- 16,959
- 4,855
After waiting a bit and calming down, I wanted to come back and post this for you guys.
@Everyone
Since I did come off at least kind of rude earlier and still feel really bad about it, I wanted to say im very and sincerely sorry for that dramatic outburst. I didn't mean to let off steam like that and I definitely didn't mean to cause anymore trouble or drama in a Pokemon thread the way I did. Maybe what was said about me, in some ways, was true and the only thing I did was come off condescending in response to that. That wasn't my intention in any remote way and it may have sent the wrong messages. Regardless of which sides we're on in this (or any) discussion, me disrespecting the opposing side or starting drama isn't me at all. I'd rather be seen as someone caring and calm headed then as someone who wants to prove a point by any means.
So, once again, I apologize and take responsibility for any issues I started. And I hope this can be looked past if possible.
@Everyone
Since I did come off at least kind of rude earlier and still feel really bad about it, I wanted to say im very and sincerely sorry for that dramatic outburst. I didn't mean to let off steam like that and I definitely didn't mean to cause anymore trouble or drama in a Pokemon thread the way I did. Maybe what was said about me, in some ways, was true and the only thing I did was come off condescending in response to that. That wasn't my intention in any remote way and it may have sent the wrong messages. Regardless of which sides we're on in this (or any) discussion, me disrespecting the opposing side or starting drama isn't me at all. I'd rather be seen as someone caring and calm headed then as someone who wants to prove a point by any means.
So, once again, I apologize and take responsibility for any issues I started. And I hope this can be looked past if possible.
- 40,459
- 12,940
Also, let's talk about all the contradictory things about the god tiers in the game:
- The Lake Trio can't sate Dialga.
- Temporal Tower is tied to Dialga's state of being and exists in the first place.
- Dialga is on earth. Meanwhile, Palkia has its own dimension.
- Dialga should've easily been able to lolnope the destruction of Temporal Tower. Same with Palkia and spatial distortion.
- Giratina doesn't interfere with Darkrai's plans and instead guards a horn or some other instrument.
- Mesprit (or was it Azelf) is afraid of getting caught in a time stop.
- Many people put their hands on Azelf and much more than three days pass, but no one becomes a willpower-less vegetable.
- While time and Dialga are interrelated, Dialga is clearly not time.
- Palkia seemingly has no connection with the Lake Trio nor Dialga. Giratina seemingly has no connection with anyone.
- Dialga can't, or at least doesn't, travel through time on his own.
- Time Gears keep the flow of time, not Dialga.
- The temporal effects are only confirmed to be planetary.
- 15,614
- 7,054
- 40,459
- 12,940
Then you must've not gotten to the end of the game.Kepekley23 said:
There's also the fact that I've mentioned in several threads that the Creation Trio aren't acausal in Mystery Dungeon except for Arceus. The series is just on the bottom ring of the canon that any contradiction would overwrite it.
- 33,408
- 8,430
This is why Pokemon blogs detailing the canon and other stuff would be nice.
No one knows what the standards for what is Primary/Secondary/Tertiary canon is. It also seems like said standards tend to change on a whim.
No one knows what the standards for what is Primary/Secondary/Tertiary canon is. It also seems like said standards tend to change on a whim.
- 15,706
- 11,448
Wait, if Arceus created the concept of knowlage why is it only Nigh-Omnicent?
- 26,160
- 3,653
Pretty sure because we don't know if it knows everything about the future
- 26,160
- 3,653
Madara solos arceus low-diff.
- 26,160
- 3,653
Nah man. Goku can't summon meteorsDMB 1 said:
- 19,151
- 6,446
So, is this ever gonna be concluded?
- 8,438
- 3,293
- Thread starter
- #308
I think we're waiting on Cal to clarify canon or maybe even make some blogs.
- 15,332
- 7,563
@Cal
Are you making a blog?
Are you making a blog?
- 3,177
- 2,948
I do not think a blog is really necessary for such cases, as explained in an interview for Game Informer:
So, there isn't war in the world of Pokémon where armies of Pokémon are fighting for the ideals of their leaders?
Masuda: Long ago, there may have been wars. Actually, if you look at one of the movies featuring the character Lucario, there are maybe some hints about the past of the Pokémon world.
Speaking of the movies and consequently the TV show, do the cartoons and the movies and the video games overlap? Is that all one Pokémon world, or are they two separate universes?
Masuda: basically it's the same place. Looking at it as a parallel world, or in some select spots being a parallel world might be more accurate.
Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20121128...n-39-s-burning-questions.aspx?PostPageIndex=2
In Pokémon games, anime, movies, etc. are equally valid representations for the same world. If something happens in one, you can certainly assume that it occurred in the other because in essence, they are the same world. The application of parallel worlds is only an excuse for things to seem to make sense from a more coherent point of view.
And one thing, who said that was Junichi Masuda has worked directly on Game Freak since the first game and is a member Game Freak board of directors,, so I believe his statement is valid to explain something like that.
So, there isn't war in the world of Pokémon where armies of Pokémon are fighting for the ideals of their leaders?
Masuda: Long ago, there may have been wars. Actually, if you look at one of the movies featuring the character Lucario, there are maybe some hints about the past of the Pokémon world.
Speaking of the movies and consequently the TV show, do the cartoons and the movies and the video games overlap? Is that all one Pokémon world, or are they two separate universes?
Masuda: basically it's the same place. Looking at it as a parallel world, or in some select spots being a parallel world might be more accurate.
Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20121128...n-39-s-burning-questions.aspx?PostPageIndex=2
In Pokémon games, anime, movies, etc. are equally valid representations for the same world. If something happens in one, you can certainly assume that it occurred in the other because in essence, they are the same world. The application of parallel worlds is only an excuse for things to seem to make sense from a more coherent point of view.
And one thing, who said that was Junichi Masuda has worked directly on Game Freak since the first game and is a member Game Freak board of directors,, so I believe his statement is valid to explain something like that.
- 8,438
- 3,293
- Thread starter
- #311
So if they're all equal levels of canon saying "tertiary canon" doesn't write off the problems listed above.
- 40,459
- 12,940
That only validates the anime with the main games, probably mashing together the primary and secondary canon.
- 15,332
- 7,563
Mystery Dungeon already establishes its status as a parallel world so no.
- 8,438
- 3,293
- Thread starter
- #314
So what does everyone think? Does the "Mystery Dungeon doesn't apply" argument work, or should the aforementioned powers be removed since they seem to be inconsistent/unsupported.
- 8,438
- 3,293
- Thread starter
- #316
Well obviously, yes. We're discussing whether or not it is inconsistent or unsupported by debating the validity of Pokemon Mystery Dungeon.Frantzy12 said:
- 2,938
- 365
It being "tertiary" is out of nowhere, but any contradictions to characters being Acausal is obviously wrong as well. Characters not treating Acausal characters properly due to PIS and bad writing is one thing— but the mechanics of the verse being so different in Mystery Dungeon— like the Time Gears controlling time when Dialga EXISTS.
Low-end is a term used to either denote the lowest result of a feat or calc, or to label the stats being used for a character in a discussion. Ex. High 6-A is a low-end for character X or the low-end result of character X's feat.
Via this definition, no feats by themselves can be considered low-ends. They'd be inconsistent or PIS if they exist because of plot. If character X has feats that make them High 6-A and those feats are consistent and legitimate enough to consider being High 6-A, no amount of lower showings should negate that— especially in the face of incompetent writing. If X has 50 tier 6-A feats, and 2,000 6-B feats, he should still be 6-A, because even though the lower feats are "more consistent" in the sense of being more common— its not good to just bring a character down because of more common inconsistencies.
Low-end is a term used to either denote the lowest result of a feat or calc, or to label the stats being used for a character in a discussion. Ex. High 6-A is a low-end for character X or the low-end result of character X's feat.
Via this definition, no feats by themselves can be considered low-ends. They'd be inconsistent or PIS if they exist because of plot. If character X has feats that make them High 6-A and those feats are consistent and legitimate enough to consider being High 6-A, no amount of lower showings should negate that— especially in the face of incompetent writing. If X has 50 tier 6-A feats, and 2,000 6-B feats, he should still be 6-A, because even though the lower feats are "more consistent" in the sense of being more common— its not good to just bring a character down because of more common inconsistencies.
- 19,151
- 6,446
Bump
- 8,438
- 3,293
- Thread starter
- #320
Even if Mystery Dungeon isn't on par with the other canons, then we still don't need to rely on it. Where in Dialga's showings are feats of immeasurable speed itself, rather than just high levels of Time Travel?
- Status
Similar threads
