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Pokémon Conquest Abilities for Legendary Pokémon

GameHearo266

GameHearo266

119
7
This is something I brought up in one of the Pokémon Discussion Threads. The subject just died after a while though. So I'm just going to cut straight to the chase here and ask this. If Arceus gets its Conquest Ability, why can't the Legendary Pokémon that appeared in it get them too? I'll compile a list here just so that none of us have to dig around later.

Articuno: Frostbite- Physical contact may freeze the opponent.

Groudon: Hot Blooded- Restores HP while standing on magma, soil, or sand.

Mewtwo: Life Force- Restores HP every turn.

Rayquaza: Nomad- Raises Attack in proportion to distance moved.

Dialga: Tenacity- Physical contact causes the opponent to flinch.
 
Well they're not listed on their profiles. As far the Legends go anyways. I haven't checked the non-Legendary profiles in a while.
 
Yeah, thats more because no one bothered to actually list their moves and abilities and just put links to Bulbapedia...

But checking those profiles, the only one which actually acknowledges a Conquest ability is Mewtwo and it is treated as Regenerationn, but all of them should have their abilities since we do use them...
 
@Weekly

I take offense to that.

We've already done it for Arceus, so I wouldn't mind adding the Pokemon Conquest abilities if they're relevant enough or not blatantly game mechanics.
 
@Weekly

Just joshing you of course, but how many of these abilities are relevant?
 
Gravity manipulation: Dusclops, Dusknoir, Spiritomb

Passive Sleep Inducement: Mareep, Flaaffy, Gothorita, Gothitelle, Musharna

Explodes when defeated: Boldore, Drifblim, Drifloon, Forretress, Gigalith, Pineco, Roggenrola

Passive enemy speed reduction: Arbok, Axew, Beartic, Dusclops, Dusknoir, Ekans, Fraxure, Glalie, Gyarados, Onix, Spiritomb, Steelix, Tyranitar, Volcarona

Physical attacks may freeze the opponent: Articuno, Froslass, Glaceon, Glalie

Increased defense in grass: Serperior, Servine, Sewaddle, Snivy, Swadloon

Regen in water: Magikarp, Wooper

Regen in grass: Sewaddle, Venipede

Regen in magma/lava, soil, or sand: Groudon

Poison immunity: Snorlax

Passively Reduces Enemy accuracy: Ampharos, Dusclops, Dusknoir, Flaaffy, Golbat, Mareep, Spiritomb

Deals damage when hit with physical attacks: Anorith, Armaldo, Forretress, Onix, Pineco, Pupitar, Rhydon, Rhyhorn, Scolipede, Steelix, Venipede, Whirlipede

Regenerationn (Mid-Low): Abra, Kadabra, Alakazam, Audino, Leafeon, Petilil, Lilligant, Mewtwo

Raises attack proportional to distance moved: Aron, Lairon, Aggron, Beldum, Blitzle, Darumaka, Excadrill, Larvesta, Leafeon, Luxio, Rayquaza

Regenerationn in sand/soil: Drilbur, Excadrill, Gible, Gabite, Larvitar

Opponent range reduction: Pawniard, Bisharp, Quagsire, Skorupi, Swadloon, Umbreon

Passive health absorption: Zubat, Golbat, Crobat, Joltik, Galvantula, Larvesta, Volcarona,

Opponent Flinches when attacking: Beartic, Dialga, Garchomp, Gyarados, Haxorus, Tyranitar, Walrein

Regenerationn when in lava/magma: Litwick, Lampent, Chandelure, Charmander, Charmeleon

Increased Range in Water: Piplup, Prinplup, Empoleon, Lapras, Oshawott, Dewott, Samurott, Vaporeon


That's all the abilities that arent already normal pokemon abilities or ones based on game mechanics.
 
So are these going to be added or what? Sorry if it seems like I'm rushing things but it has been a few days.
 
Honestly this thread is going to be used more for reference considering a good amount of the pokemon listed dont have profiles yet. Not sure if Rep added the new abilities to the current profiles yet though...
 
I've got other stuff to do you know...

But yeah, since we have so many Pokemon profiles I'll have to go through them one by one to see if these Conquest abilities are relevant. Homework and exams come first though.
 
Question: If feats from Pokemon Conquest are considered valid (Arceus explicitly created Ransei and the world), why isn't Black Rayquaza listed? Nobunaga would have used it to defeat Arceus and had it not been for the MC supporting Arceus, he would've easily won.
 
@Machspyder

I'm going to need context on that, but there's a problem in that Arceus being so ludicrously above literally everything else that anything beating him is basically an outlier.
 
The thing is, Pokemon Conquest is usually considered non-canon due to it being a crossover game between Koei and Nintendo/Gamefreak, a spinoff from the main series. I was surprised to see stuff from it is considered valid here.

Here's the video, watch from the start, I am however linking the section BK Rayquaza appears: https://youtu.be/uWPi62JrTRg?t=3m41s

Nobunaga's normal partner is Zekrom. After defeating him in a previous battle, on top of the tower/castle, Arceus appears because the player has succeeded in uniting all of Ransei and it wants to test the player. Seizing this opportunity, Nobunaga appears. It was Nobunaga's goal all along to defeat Arceus (explicitly identified in-game earlier as the creator of Ransei and the world) and bring destruction to all of Ransei. For this he has Black Rayquaza as his partner, only for this battle. Arceus in this game has the ability 'Omnipotent'.

Ieyasu's commander, Tadakatsu has Metagross as his normal partner, Dialga as his 100% bond partner. Nobunaga is Ieyasu's boss and is the strongest warlord in the game.

The game was highly repetitive and while I did not play that far, IIRC, Arceus once again challenges the player after post-game (clearing all the stories) and becomes the player's partner if the player wins. There was also a story where you challenge Nobunaga again after this point. Have to recheck the post-game stuff though.

Regarding it being an "outlier", it can simply be treated as another version like GAIA Origin Zeed, especially considering this game was released before ORAS which is where the multiversal stuff comes from (as far as I know). This version of Arceus is at least universal.
 
It would still be terribly strange for characters who don't even top Town level to suddenly be taking on an even baseline Universal.

I'm still skeptical to be honest.
 
Rayquaza is town level? This is news to me.

It's a completely different version of Rayquaza so there is nothing to compare it to. And a completely different universe.

EDIT: You are counting Charizard? That Pokemon is not canonically present in the battle. The Hero's canonical partner is Eevee and its evolutions (note that the Hero does not defeat Arceus, simply link with him for this battle). Nobunaga's canonical partner for this battle is Black Rayquaza.

Also, other characters taking on god characters is nothing new in fiction. For example: Zeed vs God , Lucifer vs SMT YHVH, etc.

I haven't played it but I hear there was also a "mysterious darkness" character in the last Mystery Dungeon game to have fought Arceus.
 
@Machspyder

Well, the multiverse is confirmed from diamond and pearl:


"The second one says this:

The birth of PALKIA.

The creator of parallel dimensions...

Alive, yet not alive...

Everything drifts in space...

To arrive in the same universe.

It is the blessing of PALKIA."
 
@MachSpyder

No, it's not that. The problem is that it contradicts literally everything in our Tiering System. By our site's rules, Arceus is literally infinitely more powerful than any other Pokemon in that battle. He could have sneezed and killed them all, meaning that the whole idea of Black Rayquaza being able to take on Arceus is laughable.
 
Reppuzan said:
@MachSpyder
No, it's not that. The problem is that it contradicts literally everything in our Tiering System. By our site's rules, Arceus is literally infinitely more powerful than any other Pokemon in that battle. He could have sneezed and killed them all, meaning that the whole idea of Black Rayquaza being able to take on Arceus is laughable.
Click to expand...
See here, that's the major difference: It's a different version. As in: different incarnation from the infinitely powerful omnipotent Arceus incarnation you are using. Think MCU Thor vs Comic Book Thor. Or Adventure Omegamon vs Royal Knight Omegamon. It is the same species but a different incarnation. This is Pokemon Conquest Arceus. A spinoff. A crossover universe where the worlds of Samurai Warriors and Pokemon combined, where Warlords use Pokemon to do their fighting instead of weapons and artillery.

The mistake you are making is assuming they are the literal same beings throughout the verse. You are also assuming there exists only one Rayquaza and that Black Rayquaza is the same being. The other characters in that fight are also canonically irrelevant. In that game's canonicity, Arceus along with the player fought against Nobunaga and his Black Rayquaza.

That said, there isn't a hard rule that says a verse's 'god' character is always to be portrayed all-powerful and any depictions of him fighting/struggling/losing against a character is to be disregarded and considered 'outlier'. If that is so, then Zeed vs God, Lucemon comparable to 'God', YHVH vs Aleph/Flynn, etc. should all be treated as invalid too. Arceus isn't even Tier-0 (which if I understand correctly is the verse's equivalent of unbeatable omnipotent god beyond everything in the verse).


I'd also like to hear inputs of other staff and members on this.
 
Ive played the game multiple times and beaten it. While it may be a different version, I agree completely with Rep.

Nobunga and Black Rayquaza never actually take on Arceus at all. He call's Arceus's legend "fake" and wanted to beat him to prove it but Arceus left before he could actually fight him. And Arceus left the rest to the player to beat Nobunaga.

So there's really nothing suggesting Rayquaza can hold a candle to Arceus, especially when it would contradict everything.
 
You are wrong here. Rayquaza did fight Arceus, however it is an outlier/PIS.

@Mach Conquest is considered part of the composite just like Mystery Dungeon and Pokken, hence why they have multiple keys. We've long allowed this and we shouldn't be so restrictive with composites. Pokemon is more than just one media.

Also scaling in Pokemon is different than Digimon. We scale Zeed to God because he canonically fought him and for Digimon, that is how scaling works. As for Pokemon, no Pokemon other than the creation trio should be able to even come close to Arceus' power. In every media he's in Arceus is seen as the end all be all God Pokemon. So any Pokemon vs Arceus unless lore supports it is an outlier. That is how we scale Pokemon here.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Ive played the game multiple times and beaten it. While it may be a different version, I agree completely with Rep.
Nobunga and Black Rayquaza never actually take on Arceus at all. He call's Arceus's legend "fake" and wanted to beat him to prove it but Arceus left before he could actually fight him. And Arceus left the rest to the player to beat Nobunaga.

So there's really nothing suggesting Rayquaza can hold a candle to Arceus, especially when it would contradict everything.
Click to expand...
Yes, they never fight him at all and the entire battle that happens is just an illusion.

Arceus stays with you for the entire duration of the battle against Nobunaga and it is only after the fight that he leaves. He never leaves it to the player to beat Nobunaga. In fact, Nobunaga's entire purpose is to beat Arceus, there'd be no point with just beating the player if Arceus leaves.

Except for the entire battle itself and the events surrounding it you mean. Contradict what? You just admitted it was a different version. There's nothing to contradict here. Also Black Rayquaza=/=Rayquaza.This is a onetime Pokemon from what I know.
 
@Dragon

If that is the case, then I will drop this. Damn shame we won't be getting a Black Rayquaza profile/key though.

A question for the fans then: Assuming they have a new game out where the entire plot is just beating Arceus or a being/Pokemon on par with him, say PokeSatan, are we still going to treat it as PIS/outlier when the entire point of the plot is said entity being able to fight with Arceus?
 
@Mach

If that is the entire plot of the game, then it upgrade the "Canon" team of that game. Similar to how we only rate the "Canon" Cyber Sleuth Digimon Takumi uses as 2-A.
 
@Dragonmaster

Well, the only canon partner of the hero is Eevee and its evolutions. After post-game and completing the stories, I am pretty sure Arceus becomes the partner of the Hero in "The Legend of Ransei" quest. See Rank III hero here.

If Arceus wants to pair up with a human which it has recognized, who are we to judge? ;)
 
We canonically rate trainers based on their canon partners. We just won't scale anyone to him.
 
That seems fine. He should be the strongest in the world anyway by the time he meets Arceus again.

Strongest Trainer in Pokemon now. :)
 
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