Pokémon: Arceus Low 1-C Revision

[Sniper670]

I'll make this as quick

From here I learned from Ultima that "transcendence" in itself, doesn't mean qualitative superiority without context. Which is what got GOW downgraded from Low 1-C to it's current rating. And that brings me to Arceus.

His justification is using his transcendence of everything to give him low 1-C, which
1. Has no context
2. Is definitely not enough for such a huge jump from 2-A all the way to low 1-C

If we're being honest none of those justifications is Low 1-C to begin with

People bring up his dimension as being 5D, but the truth is that his realm is rather located outside the multiverse, and not in a qualitative superiority way

So basically I'm proposing we remove his low 1-C rating and give him back 2-A. At the very least, he should be on the same level as his avatar or on an unquantifiable higher level due to the fact that the cosmology is part of it

Agree: @Dread , @LephyrTheRevanchist

Disagree: @Hasty12345

 

[ImmortalDread]

From here I learned from Ultima that "transcendence" in itself, doesn't mean qualitative superiority without context. Which is what got GOW downgraded from Low 1-C to it's current rating. And that brings me to Arceus.

Should be self explanatory for you, Sniper...

 

[Sniper670]

?? Elaborate

 

[ImmortalDread]

It is derailing, but damn u did not get it twice. Alr.

 

[theultimate5105]

Transcendence of everything is only part of the justification

 

[Sniper670]

And none of those justified such a huge jump from 2A to low 1C. His realm certainly isn't higher dimensional as well

 

[Hasty12345]

Hard disagree

 

[ImmortalDread]

I mean, Sniper is actually doing good points. We need to wait till we finish the cosmology page, and discuss it
But for now, Idm removing it, at least for now, till we get better context. What do you think, sniper?

 

[Sniper670]

Hard disagree

When will you actually give an explanation to anything

 

[Sniper670]

I mean, Sniper is actually doing good points. We need to wait till we finish the cosmology page, and discuss it
But for now, Idm removing it, at least for now, till we get better context. What do you think, sniper?

That's the point yeah. We wait until there's actually something worth upgrading

 

[Hasty12345]

When will you actually give an explanation to anything

Arceus’ AP justification is enough to prove he’s low 1-C.

 

[Sniper670]

What AP? What structure in the Pokémon world is 5D?

 

[Hasty12345]

What AP? What structure in the Pokémon world is 5D?

Arceus’ true self

 

[Sniper670]

Oh really?

Show me which of these is grounds for 5D

Is the origin of the creation of everything in Pokémon, including the realms of The Creation Trio, including Giratina's which lacks both time and directions, and Palkia's which has domain over both the parallel dimensions and the directions, with the Creation Trio members also being their own realms themselves. Arceus is the "God who transcends everything" whose realm is beyond both time and space and that treats the Pokémon reality, which is made of countless to likely infinite universes, as a mere aspect of its true being, as also showcased from its consciousness extending across both space and time and Hoopa being able to forcefully summon the Creation Trio out of their realms with the "infinite power" of its rings, but being unable to do the same with Arceus', as it's the only one who could seal said power

 

[Hasty12345]

Oh really?

Show me which of these is grounds for 5D

It’s not “which of these” it’s the whole justification.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Oh really?

Show me which of these is grounds for 5D

"treats the Pokémon reality, which is made of countless to likely infinite universes, as a mere aspect of its true being"

This is the only part that could qualify, but that can also be done while still retaining 4-D, so... Yeah, agreed with the downgrade.

 

[ImmortalDread]

@Hasty12345 If you don't mind, you are somehow obligated to send a full explanation rather than sending some single short comments.

 

[Sniper670]

"treats the Pokémon reality, which is made of countless to likely infinite universes, as a mere aspect of its true being"

This is the only part that could qualify, but that can also be done while still retaining 4-D, so... Yeah, agreed with the downgrade.

This. The vagueness/lack of context for everything is why I made this downgrade

Vote Counted

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

It’s not “which of these” it’s the whole justification.

The Hoopa thing sure as hell means absolutely nothing for dimensionality.

And his superiority to the CT also doesn't mean anything for dimensionality.

Only two things that suggest his superiority over 4-D is his realm being "transcendent" (which is refuted by the japanese text), and all of reality being a small part of himself. But the latter would only qualify if it also elaborated on him being infinite when compared to reality, which the lore doesn't do and requires assumptions to suggest that. Or at the very least, elaborated on the relationship between IT (The Heart) and how it perceives the world... Which it also doesn't do.

 

[Hasty12345]

@Hasty12345 If you don't mind, you are somehow obligated to send a full explanation rather than sending some single short comments.

The OP is the one trying to change the profile. His two points of contention are “not enough context” which is nonsense, and “not enough” then proceeded to point out 1 point of a whole argument on the actual profile.

im not obligated to do anything, the CRT is poorly made, doesn’t debunk the profile, nor does it actually raise any problems that weren’t debunked on the upgrade thread.

 

[Sniper670]

It’s not “which of these” it’s the whole justification.

Lucky for you, my knowledge on Arceus is 10000%. Let's break it down shall we?

1. Is the origin of the creation of everything in Pokémon, including the realms of The Creation Trio, including Giratina's which lacks both time and directions, and Palkia's which has domain over both the parallel dimensions and the directions, with the Creation Trio members also being their own realms themselves.

None of these is anything close to low 1C. Why is this even there?

2. Arceus is the "God who transcends everything" whose realm is beyond both time and space and that treats the Pokémon reality, which is made of countless to likely infinite universes, as a mere aspect of its true being, as also showcased from its consciousness extending across both space and time and Hoopa being able to forcefully summon the Creation Trio out of their realms with the "infinite power" of its rings, but being unable to do the same with Arceus', as it's the only one who could seal said power

We know that Arceus isn't a 5D being, so his transcendence over everything is more talking about his authority over all creation and not a qualitative difference. Everything being a part of him is true, and that scan is talking about the OS avatar. Realm beyond space time means his dimension is outside of it, and not a higher dimensional realm. The multiverse is literally an extension of the Pokémon Arceus, and he's definitely not 5D. Consciousness spreading across space and time is omnipresence, why is this even a justification?. Everything about Hoopa is nonsense because Hoopa didnt even attempt to access Arceus dimension, so why is this there?

 

[Sniper670]

Lucky for you, my knowledge on Arceus is 10000%. Let's break it down shall we?


None of these is anything close to low 1C. Why is this even there?


We know that Arceus isn't a 5D being, so his transcendence over everything is more talking about his authority over all creation and not a qualitative difference. Everything being a part of him is true, and that scan is talking about the OS avatar. Realm beyond space time means his dimension is outside of it, and not a higher dimensional real. The multiverse is literally an extension of the Pokémon Arceus, and he's definitely not 5D. Consciousness spreading across space and time is omnipresence, why is this even a justification?. Everything about Hoopa is nonsense because Hoopa didnt even attempt to access Arceus dimension, so why is this there?

@Hasty12345 you wanted indepth explanation?

Here you go

 

[Hasty12345]

You’re putting more effort into responding to me than in your CRTs

edit: still disagree, verse supporters should be tagged.

 

[Chariot190]

Isn't true Arceus stated to exist "above" space and time and what not in PLA?
Could look into that.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Isn't true Arceus stated to exist "above" space and time and what not in PLA?
Could look into that.

We did. I was gonna make this CRT myself but couldn't for technical difficulties. I will add my findings in a bit.

That was also the justification used to upgrade him in the first place, in fact. His realm is stated to be "beyond time and space".

 

[Sniper670]

Isn't true Arceus stated to exist "above" space and time and what not in PLA?
Could look into that.

Well....

1. Arceus True Form didn't make an appearance in PLA. He may have been speaking through Arceus however

2. His realm he mentioned is located beyond both space and time, which was clarified to be outside of it rather than a qualitative difference,

 

[Chariot190]

What do the raws say about that? Given Pokemon's to be blunt, shitty english translation precedence.
Edit: Meant at the start, but rip that kanji as well and put them in the imgur albums, it's a wiki rule, plus it would help define what the exact terminology used is if we can dissect it character by character.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Since I am creating cosmology page for this verse, why does "beyond space and time" have any value?

 

[Sniper670]

What do the raws say about that? Given Pokemon's to be blunt, shitty english translation precedence.

"This is my realm beyond space and time"

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Clip:
Quote:

To see such truths proven anew, beyond the bounds of time and space, bringeth joy to me.
I am glad that I chose thee to call to this world.
As thou walkest onward upon thine own path...
Upon thee...and upon this creation where thou now dwellest...

The translation. (thanks once more to @Executor_N0) revealed that the realm talked about at the beginning of the game and the Eternal Battle Reverie don't have the connection previously thought. That when Arceus' says “beyond the bounds of time and space” in the Eternal Battle Reverie scene, by the context of how the wordage had been used before in the franchise coupled with the vague and complex nature of the language used, it's more probable it refers to the fact the protagonist time traveled; in fact, as @Executor_N0 put it, “So, the way it's worded here it really seems to be talking about the fact that the player lives in Hissui instead of talking about the Hall of Origin.”

Now, why is this a problem.

Well you see... In the Japanese version of the introduction of the game, the word "beyond" is used the same as the Eternal Battle Reverie itself.

Clip: (ignore the japanese commentary (?))

Thanks to @Sniper670, who provided a translation here (link for the translation), we can ascertain that Executor's conclusion of it not necessarily referring to "beyond time and space" in a superiority sense may actually apply too to this scene. As such, the realm of It/True Form Arceus may have to be downgraded, and the justification removed from its profile.

 

[Chariot190]

"This is my realm beyond space and time"

Was responding to the lad above you, but see edit.

 

[Sniper670]

Since I am creating cosmology page for this verse, why does "beyond space and time" have any value?

Right? That's the first thing I mentioned in this thread

Such statements are kinda meaningless

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

You can read it above, @Chariot190

Meant at the start, but rip that kanji as well and put them in the imgur albums, it's a wiki rule, plus it would help define what the exact terminology used is if we can dissect it character by character.

best part is, it's not even kanji, as @Executor_N0 elaborated on the translation thread

 

[Chariot190]

And we're absolutely certain that's what it means? There's no subjectivity to that at all? It's objectively talking about time travel? And beyond as in outside?
There's no double meanings to the wording used?

 

[ImmortalDread]

@LephyrTheRevanchist I failed to see a single statement without any further explanation on why “beyond space-time” takes any value or has any “superior transcendence” over the main universe.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

And we're absolutely certain that's what it means? There's no subjectivity to that at all? It's objectively talking about time travel? And beyond as in outside?
There's no double meanings to the wording used?

In this case they not exactly mean that their universe is superior, but that this is their own place and laws (of physics and otherwise) of normal space do not apply.

This is the most telling part about it, according to the reddit translation of the scene. It's when coupled with @Executor_N0 conclusion that the usage of the word can also mean time travel that it starts painting the picture that "beyond time and space" doesn't really suggest actual dimensional superiority here.

Edit: I will put the scans on an imgur page either way, for more proof if someone wants another translation.

 

[theultimate5105]

The beyond time and space statement on the profile is refering to another one at the start of the game
It also takes place before you even time travel

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

The beyond time and space statement on the profile is refering to another one at the start of the game

We know. Read my entire post and click on all the links.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Here be the imgur page with the japanese scans.

 

[ImmortalDread]

@LephyrTheRevanchist Mind elaborating why a statement such that has any value or meaning to qualitative superiority transcendence?