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Currently the profiles of the relatively 'physically-weak' Servants is inconsistent. For example, sometimes they are Wall level but their weapon somehow get a separate rating to account for how they can physically fight and harm strong Servants, and sometimes they are just scaled to strong Servants because they can physically fight them 'despite having E Rank Strength', and sometimes they are outright Wall level.
This CRT will seek to get rid Wall level in 'physically weak' Servants, and unify their scaling to your typical Servant.
The argument is based on consistency. There is a large amount of feats from Servants who have E Rank Strength/Endurance or are described as physically weak that makes them comparable to Servants in general. They are gathered on the list below:
Furthermore there are various Servants who have E Rank Strength and higher Endurance (BB, Caster Cu, Circe, Habetrot, Illyasviel, Medea, Meltlilith, Miyu, Scheherazade, Sei Shounagon, Semiramis, Shiki Ryougi, Sitonai, Van Gogh).
And various Servants with E Rank Endurance and higher Strength (Atlanta, Beni-enma, Billy the Kid, Caster Gilles, Jing Ke, Old Li Shuwen, Rider Medusa under Shinji, Merlin, Morgan, Okita, Sasaki Kojirou, Tamamo Cat, Paracelsus, Wolfgang Mozart, Wu Zetian).
They are plenty of feats for D Rank Strength and D Rank Endurance (and some of the Servants above have C, B, and even A Rank in either Strength or Durability) that makes them at least somewhat comparable to higher level Servants, so it would be extremely convoluted for there to be a stupendous' gap between a Servant's durability and strength that goes into the billions and trillions.
It is of note that Jason has pretty good physical stats, but he is stated to be useless in combat due to his lack of skills and courage.
The upgrade would also apply to all Hassan of the Hundred Faces personalities. It seems that the only real loss when splitting is loss of knowledge-based skills, as it is possible to split with maximum manifestations into Gozul the Strong who can have two simultaneous arm wrestling matches with Beowulf (A Rank Strength) and Sakata (A+ Rank Strength) and win, and it is possible to split with maximum manifestations into Makul the Quick who amazed Atalanta (A Rank) with his speed. This is despite Hundred Faces having C Rank Strength parameter and A Rank agility parameter, so maybe that can be considered an average for all his personalities.
Hundred Face Hassan's B+/B++ Noble Phantasm is not overpowered when we look at other Noble Phantasms that summon a large number of Servant-level fighters (its only real advantage it sustainable for long-term use and everyone has great Presence Concealment). Iskander's Ex Rank Noble Phantasm creates a Reality Marble and summons 10,000 Heroic Spirits, with some of them being even more powerful than Iskander himself. Darius III's A/A+ Rank Noble Phantasm allows him to summon 10,000 undead soldiers who are able to clash with Iskander's Noble Phantasm. Leonidas B Rank Noble Phantasm allows him to summon 300 Heroic Spirits with Endurance that range from Rank E to Rank C. Fuuma's B/B+ Rank Noble Phantasm allows him to summon 200 Heroic Spirits.
Finally, I will address what I believe are the top two arguments for Servants being considered Wall level:
Furthermore, Medea has Rank D Endurance, which implies if taken at face value that Rin can harm other Servants including Rider Medusa under Sakura and Servants with D Rank Endurance who tanked direct attacks from other Servants.
This can easily be reconciled by Rin using her Jewels. Just before physically attacking Medea, Rin had one or two jewels left, and after the fight Rin's jewels don't get mentioned again in the route. We know from Kirei's use of Command Spells that a large amount of magical energy being given to a human allows them to temporarily be as strong as a Servant, and Rin's jewels were being filled with magical energy for multiple years. Furthermore in the Fate route Rin used a Jewel to prevent Berserker from crushing her torso when he grabbed her. Additionally, the narrator states 'Tohsaka's fist must be "strengthened" like Kuzuki's, as her attack easily penetrates Caster's defense.', implying that strengthening comparable to the one Kuzuki had is needed to penetrate Caster's defense.
She exchanged a flurry of strikes with Leysritt (who is confirmed to be as physically strong as Medusa, and was seen rushing Gilgamesh in the anime), and parried her halberd.
Furthermore, she states that she is confident that she can keep up with 3rd war Assassin in a flat battlefield, even though he is stated to be 'amongst the fastest of the Servants', and she was seen trying to crush his head using her fist.
Throughout her runs, she and Angra managed to off-screened 5 Servants with only one use of Fragrach allowed (she has a total of three uses, and she is sparing one use for Saber and one for Berserker) . Recall the statement that Bazett is more useful in combat ability than Angra Mainyu, and that Bazett attempted to kill Assassin with her fist on-screen and vowed to kill him next time. She also states that trying to separate Masters from their Servants proved to be a losing strategy, so she wasn't simply assassinating Masters.
Nasu also states that Bazett can give Ciel a good fight if she masters the use of Fragrach (which requires pushing the opponent into using their 'trump card' to activate its time/casuality reversal effect), and Ciel scales to Roa and has an author statement that she is able to fight Servants defensively.
Furthermore, there is an author statement that Bazett can parry and dodge Medea's high thaumaturgy attacks (aka. the laser beams she uses to kill Servants), but will eventually get tired and overwhelmed.
There are a couple of statement comparing her to Souichirou Kuzuki and Kirei Kotomine, but both statements are specifically comparing their martial arts skills without use of magecraft.
Lord El-Melloi II's Case Files suggests that Bazett is among the strongest individuals in the Clock Tower, and FGO introduced Scandinavia Peperoncino who was recruited as a talented Magus who specialize in fighting and he demonstrated the ability to amp his speed to consistently dodge attacks from Servants. So inheriting ancient Magecraft that allow Servant level amps has been recently validated as well.
This CRT will seek to get rid Wall level in 'physically weak' Servants, and unify their scaling to your typical Servant.
The argument is based on consistency. There is a large amount of feats from Servants who have E Rank Strength/Endurance or are described as physically weak that makes them comparable to Servants in general. They are gathered on the list below:
- Anastasia was noted to be strong despite having E Rank Strength by the B Rank Bradamante, and she was effectively able to carry Ivan and use him as a makeshift weapon .
- Angra Mainyu, who holds the title of the weakest Servant, was able to clash with Artoria hundreds of times with sparks flying from their weapons, and he was able to trap Artoria's weapon after she swung offensively with his 'sword-breaker' dagger, until Artoria was forced to use Mana Burst to break free and break Angra's weapon.
- Caster Cu clashed with Corrupted Emiya in close combat the First Order movie with his staff and even engaged in a sword/staff lock with him, and in the Lostbelt 6.2 trailer he was seen simultaneous physically striking Fairy Knight Lancelot (who is stronger than the average Servant) with Senji Muramasa.
- Charlotte Corday fights physically using her knife.
- Euryale and Stheno, who are among the physically weakest Servants, use physical attacks in their animation. During child Medusa's interlude, Medusa was asked to fight Euryale and her sister Stheno without holding back (which Medusa confirmed she did), meaning that they survived Medusa's serious attacks.
- Habetrot physically strikes with her staff in her animation.
- Hans Andersen, who is stated to be among the physically weakest Servants ever, was able to tank an attack from Solomon that was intended for Mordred and survive with injuries.
- Leonardo Da Vinci was pierced through the chest by Rasputin's fist, but she was able to hold him still and trap him before she disappeared. She did so long enough to give a farewell speech as well. Rasputin has the body of Kirei who was known for superhuman martial arts, and Goredolf said that he won't be able to hurt him with his Goff Punch, so he should have physicals above Rank E.
- Mata Hari and Nitocris were similarly injured ('we are all battered') with other Servants (Cursed Arm Hassan, Mash, Lancer Artoria) after defeating Ozymandias in FGO Arcade's Jerusalem Singularity.
- Medb fights in close combat, and was described as a great warrior like Scathach in the Agartha Singularity.
- Medea clashed with Saber in close battle using Rule Breaker in the UBW anime bridge battle.
- Meltlilith mainly uses physical attacks.
- Nursery Rhyme physically blocks attacks and physically hits back in Fate/Extra.
- Okita managed to tank a punch from Oryou in Type/Redline when Okita was incapacitated by her illness.
- Osakabehime uses physical attacks, and Yan Qing said that she is tough after landing a 'pretty good hit' which she tanked before escaping.
- Ryogi Shiki mostly fights in close combat, and not all her attacks necessarily use the Mystic Eyes of Depth Perception.
- Sieg uses normal sword strikes. Considering that he is a terminal of the original Sieg after the events of Apocrypha, and that all Apocrypha Servants retain their original stats, his stats are most likely be representative to him fighting a one-armed Amastasia Shirou in Apocrypha.
- Summer Helena Blavatsky has an attack where she slams the opponent with her minigun.
- Tamamo uses tail swipes and martial arts kicks. She was able to tank a direct physical hit from B Rank Violet and catch her off-guard with her martial arts skills in CCC Foxtail.
- Thomas Edison uses boxing-based punches in his animation, and in Turas Realta he survived a summoned Kiyohime destroying the mecha he is in, and survives punches from Nightingale.
- Wu Zetian was able to survive Heracles Megalos 'crushing her' and spilling her blood after he dropped from the ceiling, and she was able to afterward slip away using her Presence Concealment to recover from being crushed. In the manga adaption Megalos didn't land on her, but attacks her soon after and she is sent flying away from the building.
- Xuanzang Sanzang mainly fights physically. She is also seen creating clones wielding different melee weapons in the Camelot movie to fight knights enhanced by Agravain.
Furthermore there are various Servants who have E Rank Strength and higher Endurance (BB, Caster Cu, Circe, Habetrot, Illyasviel, Medea, Meltlilith, Miyu, Scheherazade, Sei Shounagon, Semiramis, Shiki Ryougi, Sitonai, Van Gogh).
And various Servants with E Rank Endurance and higher Strength (Atlanta, Beni-enma, Billy the Kid, Caster Gilles, Jing Ke, Old Li Shuwen, Rider Medusa under Shinji, Merlin, Morgan, Okita, Sasaki Kojirou, Tamamo Cat, Paracelsus, Wolfgang Mozart, Wu Zetian).
They are plenty of feats for D Rank Strength and D Rank Endurance (and some of the Servants above have C, B, and even A Rank in either Strength or Durability) that makes them at least somewhat comparable to higher level Servants, so it would be extremely convoluted for there to be a stupendous' gap between a Servant's durability and strength that goes into the billions and trillions.
It is of note that Jason has pretty good physical stats, but he is stated to be useless in combat due to his lack of skills and courage.
The upgrade would also apply to all Hassan of the Hundred Faces personalities. It seems that the only real loss when splitting is loss of knowledge-based skills, as it is possible to split with maximum manifestations into Gozul the Strong who can have two simultaneous arm wrestling matches with Beowulf (A Rank Strength) and Sakata (A+ Rank Strength) and win, and it is possible to split with maximum manifestations into Makul the Quick who amazed Atalanta (A Rank) with his speed. This is despite Hundred Faces having C Rank Strength parameter and A Rank agility parameter, so maybe that can be considered an average for all his personalities.
Hundred Face Hassan's B+/B++ Noble Phantasm is not overpowered when we look at other Noble Phantasms that summon a large number of Servant-level fighters (its only real advantage it sustainable for long-term use and everyone has great Presence Concealment). Iskander's Ex Rank Noble Phantasm creates a Reality Marble and summons 10,000 Heroic Spirits, with some of them being even more powerful than Iskander himself. Darius III's A/A+ Rank Noble Phantasm allows him to summon 10,000 undead soldiers who are able to clash with Iskander's Noble Phantasm. Leonidas B Rank Noble Phantasm allows him to summon 300 Heroic Spirits with Endurance that range from Rank E to Rank C. Fuuma's B/B+ Rank Noble Phantasm allows him to summon 200 Heroic Spirits.
Finally, I will address what I believe are the top two arguments for Servants being considered Wall level:
Rin beating up Medea
If we take things at face value, the narrator says that Rin was moving at "Saber-like speed". So either low-mid level magi can move at Servant level, or there is more to it.Furthermore, Medea has Rank D Endurance, which implies if taken at face value that Rin can harm other Servants including Rider Medusa under Sakura and Servants with D Rank Endurance who tanked direct attacks from other Servants.
This can easily be reconciled by Rin using her Jewels. Just before physically attacking Medea, Rin had one or two jewels left, and after the fight Rin's jewels don't get mentioned again in the route. We know from Kirei's use of Command Spells that a large amount of magical energy being given to a human allows them to temporarily be as strong as a Servant, and Rin's jewels were being filled with magical energy for multiple years. Furthermore in the Fate route Rin used a Jewel to prevent Berserker from crushing her torso when he grabbed her. Additionally, the narrator states 'Tohsaka's fist must be "strengthened" like Kuzuki's, as her attack easily penetrates Caster's defense.', implying that strengthening comparable to the one Kuzuki had is needed to penetrate Caster's defense.
Angra Mainyu said that he is weaker than Bazett in fighting ability
Such an objection falls if we consider that Bazett has multiple feats and statements that puts her Rune amps at Servant level (planning a future CRT for her and many other), so the statement is not a anti-feat.She exchanged a flurry of strikes with Leysritt (who is confirmed to be as physically strong as Medusa, and was seen rushing Gilgamesh in the anime), and parried her halberd.
Furthermore, she states that she is confident that she can keep up with 3rd war Assassin in a flat battlefield, even though he is stated to be 'amongst the fastest of the Servants', and she was seen trying to crush his head using her fist.
Throughout her runs, she and Angra managed to off-screened 5 Servants with only one use of Fragrach allowed (she has a total of three uses, and she is sparing one use for Saber and one for Berserker) . Recall the statement that Bazett is more useful in combat ability than Angra Mainyu, and that Bazett attempted to kill Assassin with her fist on-screen and vowed to kill him next time. She also states that trying to separate Masters from their Servants proved to be a losing strategy, so she wasn't simply assassinating Masters.
Nasu also states that Bazett can give Ciel a good fight if she masters the use of Fragrach (which requires pushing the opponent into using their 'trump card' to activate its time/casuality reversal effect), and Ciel scales to Roa and has an author statement that she is able to fight Servants defensively.
| Q: Who'd win if the Servants and the 27 Ancestors fought each other? Also, who'd win in a fight between Bazett, a renowned powerhouse of the Association, and Ciel, top class even in the Association? Oh, and regarding Bazett-san and Lady Ciel, Ciel'd still win at the point Bazett was in Hollow. Once Bazett awakens and masters Fragarach, it'll turn into a good match. |
Furthermore, there is an author statement that Bazett can parry and dodge Medea's high thaumaturgy attacks (aka. the laser beams she uses to kill Servants), but will eventually get tired and overwhelmed.
| Nasu: As has been speculated (by the editors), the battle would proceed with Caster winning overwhelmingly. As Caster doesn't have a trump card to use against Bazett, she's quite the difficult opponent for Bazett to handle. While lady Bazett is at times able to dodge, deflect, or nullify high thaumaturgy, she'd be fatigued before she could grab a chance at getting the upper hand. .....Oh and you see. Caster-san. She's merciless against mature women. |
There are a couple of statement comparing her to Souichirou Kuzuki and Kirei Kotomine, but both statements are specifically comparing their martial arts skills without use of magecraft.
| Q. Between Kotomine, Bazett, Kuzuki, Melty Blood’s Miyako, and Kishima Kouma, who’d be the top 3 in a purely hand to hand fight with no weapons or magecraft? Q: If Bazett and Kuzuki got in a hand-to-hand fight against each other, who would win? |
Lord El-Melloi II's Case Files suggests that Bazett is among the strongest individuals in the Clock Tower, and FGO introduced Scandinavia Peperoncino who was recruited as a talented Magus who specialize in fighting and he demonstrated the ability to amp his speed to consistently dodge attacks from Servants. So inheriting ancient Magecraft that allow Servant level amps has been recently validated as well.
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