Persona near-wide downgrade to tier 10

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Hell, Joker getting the hell beaten out of him by normal cops is literally a plot point.

It's also a plot point that he let that happen to him.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

It's also a plot point that he let that happen to him.

Despite physically being bloodied and injuried in the interrogation room? He let himself get captured, but that doesn't magically lower his durability by Infinity. Hell, he was struggling to remember said plan because of said drugging and beating, which wouldn't happen to a Low 2-C. If he was as strong in the real world as in the Metaverse all the time then those cops shouldn't have been able to hurt him period, regardless of what Joker allowed to happen or not. And this is completely ignoring that Akechi's plan involved shooting him in the head with a regular gun.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

1. False equivalency. We do use base depowered versions of characters where applicable, such as Ben 10 and J Jonah Jameson for example.

And do those characters get into combat many times using said forms that have keys?

2. Then we just don't give a tier 10 key to those that can do that. Simple. Doesn't change the fact that there are Persona users who are treated like normal humans/animals outside of specific zones. Hell, Joker getting the hell beaten out of him by normal cops is literally a plot point.

Okay but that isn't the title of this thread now is it?

Except they aren't. Read and actually respond to my post which outlines this.

Joker was literally going along with a plan to allow this. Literally, none of that is inconsistent with humans inherent power to evolve adaptively and utilize willpower to change reality.

3. Ryuji didn't tank anything. He could barely stand and those blows were effortless. That's like saying Bulma scales to Beerus because she survived a slap.

Yes he did, he was able to move afterward, took multiple blows, and they had killing intent. Beerus saw Bulma as a nuisance so the context is completely different.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

1. Nope. Not Jameson at least.

2. That's what we've been discussing doing for the past several posts, my dude. The only way you could've missed that is if you hadn't read the thread up to now. Also, that doesn't explain why Akechi, a fellow Persona user would expect it to work. Especially when his plan involves shooting him with a regular gun he stole from a random guard.

3. None of those blows had killing intent. The guards first captured them, then Kamoshida wanted to sadistically beat them. By the time he gets around to wanting them dead, he gets interrupted by Joker and his awakening.

 

[QuasiYuri]

This is already addressed by the rest of my post. To reiterate, it is not done to other verses, and doesn't even address my point.

It is done.

Do those characters with said keys fight consistently in other forms? We are supposed to index versions of characters who fight.

A lot of characters on VSB never fought in their entire life. Including some tier 1.
Also Ben 10 is one example among many.

A note or a link to cosmology would be a much better solution than creating separate keys. Especially since, once again, the world is cognitive and Joker could unlock some extent of his latent power in the physical world, which has happened many times in series. Calling them "normal humans" is flat out wrong.

Didn't The Wright Way answer this?

 

[Dr._whiteee]

1. Nope. Not Jameson at least.

Ok you so you brought one example that's valid and doesn't really address my overarching point.

2. That's what we've been discussing doing for the past several posts, my dude. The only way you could've missed that is if you hadn't read the thread up to now. Also, that doesn't explain why Akechi, a fellow Persona user would expect it to work. Especially when his plan involves shooting him with a regular gun he stole from a random guard.

I have, if you actually read all of my post you would realize I am saying this thread was hamfisted, and extremely rash to make, without consulting anyone who knows the verse well, or actually taking the time to do legit research. Look at the title, it's not "Adding keys to Persona humans" or something similar it's called a downgrade which in of itself is very misleading. Giving them keys will be much more than making them baseline human for the reason I posted above that you chose not to respond to.

Because once again, no one is arguing that Joker is as strong as he is when in the spiritual realm. But he is far from a regular human and the adaptive evolution/willpower abilities he has mean he can raise in strength even in the physical world, or potentially outright access his persona like other humans in the verse. Which would be no where near human level.

3. None of those blows had killing intent. The guards first captured them, then Kamoshida wanted to sadistically beat them. By the time he gets around to wanting them dead, he gets interrupted by Joker and his awakening.

Yes, Guards who are laughably above human level, hit him as an intruder and brought them back to Kamoshida after they didn't explode.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Despite physically being bloodied and injuried in the interrogation room? He let himself get captured, but that doesn't magically lower his durability by Infinity. Hell, he was struggling to remember said plan because of said drugging and beating, which wouldn't happen to a Low 2-C. If he was as strong in the real world as in the Metaverse all the time then those cops shouldn't have been able to hurt him period, regardless of what Joker allowed to happen or not. And this is completely ignoring that Akechi's plan involved shooting him in the head with a regular gun.

Again, all of that was planned, including him being pinned down and taken away. The Joker that was being roughed up and in the interrogation room was also a cognitive copy meant to fool Akechi.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

1. And how doesn't it?

2. And once knowledgeable members started actually responding, the goal changed accordingly. Which you would know if you'd read it.

"Potentially". Joker's never shown to do that. Just because he "could" doesn't mean he can. He's not Maruki. Characters without feats showing they can summon Personas in the real world would still get Tier 10 keys, with appropriate resistances and abilities that they have shown accounted for, such as Joker's Fate Manipulation resistance.

3. The guard walked up to them, watched them harmlessly react in shock to him, then shoved Ryuji with his shield, before more guards showed and arrested them. No series blows were thrown and Ryuji still said "you're gonna break my bones, dammit!" When hit.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Again, all of that was planned, including him being pinned down and taken away. The Joker that was being roughed up and in the interrogation room was also a cognitive copy meant to fool Akechi.

Only we see the real Joker on the interrogation room after the plan is revealed and he's still roughed up and bloodied.

And that doesn't change the fact that Akechi, a fellow Persona user, expected a regular gun to kill Joker in the real world. Which does, in fact, happen if you get a bad ending if you want to count that.

 

[EFÍTÉ]

I'm not sure how seriously this should even be taken, since he literally only does that in response to Chie mentioning how the instruments look like his weapons when he uses them, which is immediately followed up by Yukiko saying that the drum looks like a fan.




That's due to Sho.

it wouldnt matter considering he tried to summon and failed.... and Yukiko alot of time acts oblivous of the situation, like how the guy's dungeon made of 8 bits asked Yukiko to hang out but she didnt understand and in the cabin event near the end of the game, where she says why they would be without cloathes.

Yosuke doing that because of Chie and Yukiko being Yukiko doenst mean he genuine didnt try to summon.

I mean, the reality they are is connected to the TV world noneless, doenst matter who did lol.

 

[EFÍTÉ]

Another point to be made, when the phantom thieves have their masks removed or moved to the top of their head, is always on situations are they cant use their powers, like when palaces are disappearing and when reality started to fix itself after mementos shenanigans.

Heck when Joker procceds to fight maruki on 1v1, both realize they cant use their powers there anymore since the palace is disappearing, which why they go hand to hand agaisnt eachother.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

1. And how doesn't it?

Because my argument was against indexing such characters and making several dozen changes to existing profiles. Your answer was to argue from tradition, one which isn't even blanket applied (shown by my examples and one of your two which was invalid as a comparison, and looking back so is the Jameson one) in the first place. 99% of all combat is with metaverse Joker, giving him a key is borderline useless and more likely to be abused.

2. And once knowledgeable members started actually responding, the goal changed accordingly. Which you would know if you'd read it.

Which doesn't justify making threads haphazardly and with ill intent like this.

I did read it, not sure why you think my responses indicate I haven't read the thread. You seem to be not understanding what I am saying in my posts.

"Potentially". Joker's never shown to do that. Just because he "could" doesn't mean he can.

Except you are incorrect because all baseline mechanics of persona outside specific powers, and certain roles like messiah and trickster, are shared between all of those who awaken them by virtue of shared mechanics, which is why P5 cast has something like madness manip from the P2 cast, and why P2 gets high godly regen despite never showing it, because it's a latent power humans possess. Nothing about Baofu's adaptive evolution in awakening his persona in a life or death situation is different than other humans of similar spiritual caliber doing the same thing.

So you should probably do so more digging yourself before making claims like this.

He's not Maruki.

irrelevant to my point but okay.

Characters without feats showing they can summon Personas in the real world would still get Tier 10 keys, with appropriate resistances and abilities that they have shown accounted for, such as Joker's Fate Manipulation resistance.

They would actually get a range of placements based on willpower and adaptive evolution not just flat tier 10, for like the 5th time.

3. The guard walked up to them, watched them harmlessly react in shock to him, then shoved Ryuji with his shield, before more guards showed and arrested them. No series blows were thrown and Ryuji still said "you're gonna break my bones, dammit!" When hit.

Yes. So a shadow, who is laughably above baseline human and had no idea who the hell Ryuji and Joker were. Walked and smacked Ryuji on the back of his head with a 4 foot metal shield with enough force to which Ryuji implied he was close to breaking his bones, is proof of baseline human durability? and yes he was hit again, both and joker are hit with the butt of the shadows sword in the dungeon they are taken to.

Not to mention the fact that...Kamoshida's shadow is much stronger than baseline human level...And ryuji took several hits from him unguarded without even bloodying.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Another point to be made, when the phantom thieves have their masks removed or moved to the top of their head, is always on situations are they cant use their powers, like when palaces are disappearing and when reality started to fix itself after mementos shenanigans.

No? This is literally just an aesthetic choice or else Morgana would be a cat again, and he flat out turns into a car multiple times to save them. Also there clothes disappear when they don't have access to their powers such as in Enlil's theatre realm, which they are later able to use their powers again, as another example of this not being correct.

Heck when Joker procceds to fight maruki on 1v1, both realize they cant use their powers there anymore since the palace is disappearing, which why they go hand to hand agaisnt eachother.

No, it was literally a fight between the two of them as men without powers. Maruki literally dragged their helicopter down using azatoth in the first place and joker clearly still had his will of rebellion surrounding him.

 

[Bobsican]

I'm just going to mention that a character key doens't require to perform any kind of combat whatsoever to be indexable, look at Barney the Dinosaur for instance, the entire character never fights and is still indexable out of still having stuff worthy to index.

The same applies here out of having later keys with stuff worth indexing in terms of powers for the most part.
It has also been shown before that the above is a common practice and shouldn't be taken as something counterproductive.

 

[TheGatememer]

Do we considers Strikers canon? Cause this is pretty damning evidence. This one's unused, but it definitely shows that the writers treat the PTs as normal humans.

why is this still being discussed? Isn't this enough evidence?

 

[The_Wright_Way]

1. We're an indexing wiki. The entire point is that we properly show what characters are capable of. So what if that involves changing dozens of profiles? That goes for every verse wide CRT.

2. "Not just tier 10". Yeah, I get that. Kanji has blatant 9-C feats, some people can summon Personas in the real world, and such. Even their regular human keys vary in power. I don't see what that has to do with my point about including them.

My point is that, unlike the Madness Manipulation resistance and such, which have no anti-feats to indicate don't scale to all Persona users, we have explicit anti-feats that show these characters aren't tier 2 and tier 1 literally all the time. Persona 4 and Persona 5 cast have explicit anti feats showing them getting hurt by things normal humans would get hurt by. Maruki has shown the willpower to summon his Persona in the real world. Yu has not and he's shown getting hurt by things Tier 2s wouldn't even notice. That's my point.

3. The Shadow stared at them for several seconds before shoving them with his shield. And Shadow Kamoshida explicitly wanted to beat them first. I've literally addressed all of this.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

I'm just going to mention that a character key doens't require to perform any kind of combat whatsoever to be indexable, look at Barney the Dinosaur for instance, the entire character never fights and is still indexable out of still having stuff worthy to index.

The same applies here out of having later keys with stuff worth indexing in terms of powers for the most part.
It has also been shown before that the above is a common practice and shouldn't be taken as something counterproductive.

You could've used any character and you choose the most controversial one to get your point across...

 

[QuasiYuri]

That's not even a downgrade regardless. You just gain a key like LDOs pre Apostle selves. Why would it even be a problem ?

 

[EFÍTÉ]

No, it was literally a fight between the two of them as men without powers. Maruki literally dragged their helicopter down using azatoth in the first place and joker clearly still had his will of rebellion surrounding him.

But couldn't user their powers... Both cant use their powers. Rebellious Will isn't necessary related to their persona powers.

Time stamp of the video: 54:10 to 54:26 Here proof

No? This is literally just an aesthetic choice or else Morgana would be a cat again, and he flat out turns into a car multiple times to save them. Also there clothes disappear when they don't have access to their powers such as in Enlil's theatre realm, which they are later able to use their powers again, as another example of this not being correct.

Maruki own words debunks the notion of being aesthetic choice.

Palace starts to disappear
None of them can use their powers

Morgana appears like a humanoid cat because he is like that on the metaverse, once they disappear from the metaverse, he turns into cat again.

 

[Bobsican]

You could've used any character and you choose the most controversial one to get your point across...

I couldn't think of anything better, but it still gets the point across, this kind of stuff also happens often with verses that have Reality Equalization for the sake of indexing, not that this is a RE-based verse.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

But couldn't user their powers... Both cant use their powers. Rebellious Will isn't necessary related to their persona powers.

Time stamp of the video: 54:10 to 54:26 Here proof


Maruki own words debunks the notion of being aesthetic choice

They can still utilize cognition they just can't summon their persona. None of this is unknown, humans cannot normally summon their persona IRL. They have to be under extreme duress, or extremely powerful (such as the case with Maruki). Which is why I have stated it would be under their adaptive evolution/willpower stuff which humans already have.

.

Morgana appears like a humanoid cat because he is like that on the metaverse, once they disappear from the metaverse, he turns into cat again.

I know I am talking about your claims of the metaverse crumbling meaning they can't use it as it's crumbling. If you meant that persona users can't actively summon persona's outside of the spiritual realm, then yes, this is known.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

1. We're an indexing wiki. The entire point is that we properly show what characters are capable of. So what if that involves changing dozens of profiles? That goes for every verse wide CRT.

2. "Not just tier 10". Yeah, I get that. Kanji has blatant 9-C feats, some people can summon Personas in the real world, and such. Even their regular human keys vary in power. I don't see what that has to do with my point about including them.

My point is that, unlike the Madness Manipulation resistance and such, which have no anti-feats to indicate don't scale to all Persona users, we have explicit anti-feats that show these characters aren't tier 2 and tier 1 literally all the time. Persona 4 and Persona 5 cast have explicit anti feats showing them getting hurt by things normal humans would get hurt by. Maruki has shown the willpower to summon his Persona in the real world. Yu has not and he's shown getting hurt by things Tier 2s wouldn't even notice. That's my point.

3. The Shadow stared at them for several seconds before shoving them with his shield. And Shadow Kamoshida explicitly wanted to beat them first. I've literally addressed all of this.

If it's done right I don't have an issue.

 

[EFÍTÉ]

They can still utilize cognition they just can't summon their persona. None of this is unknown, humans cannot normally summon their persona IRL. They have to be under extreme duress, or extremely powerful (such as the case with Maruki). Which is why I have stated it would be under their adaptive evolution/willpower stuff which humans already have.

I know I am talking about your claims of the metaverse crumbling meaning they can't use it as it's crumbling. If you meant that persona users can't actively summon persona's outside of the spiritual realm, then yes, this is known.

The point is P3, P4 and P5 cast being unable to summon their personas in IRL.

Which why is being proposed a Tier 10 Key when they are on IRL.

So things like cognition isn't being touched.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

The point is P3, P4 and P5 cast being unable to summon their personas in IRL.

Which why is being proposed a Tier 10 Key when they are on IRL.

So things like cognition isn't being touched.

Yeh and my point wasn't that they could actively do it on command, just that it is a possible application of their adaptive evolution ability, such as in the case of Baofu.

 

[EFÍTÉ]

Yeh and my point wasn't that they could actively do it on command, just that it is a possible application of their adaptive evolution ability, such as in the case of Baofu.

I mean, nobody here is denying they can summon in IRL, its being argued in the moment the P3 (i cant confirm about mitsuro), P4 and P5 cant summon their personas in IRL in the moment, nothing is stopping them for achieving that eventually.

10-A Key would be given only to those who cant summon/channel their power in IRL.

If they can change that in the middle of the battle great, but it should be taken into account alot of persona users couldnt do that, even with huge experience like P3 cast, so assuming everybody can do that doenst sound right.

About Baofu, i need to stop being lazy, finish P1 already and go into P2 to see for myself.

 

[Shmooply]

Strikers is canon.

Probably late to this, but wasn't it agreed upon that Strikers is only canon in P5, and not in P5R? That would mean it's... I dunno, non-canon canon? Damn you Megami Tensei.

 

[Schnee_One]

It is only canon to P5 but at the same time it doesn’t really contradict anything in Royal

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Probably late to this, but wasn't it agreed upon that Strikers is only canon in P5, and not in P5R? That would mean it's... I dunno, non-canon canon? Damn you Megami Tensei.

No? P5 is still canon, and Strikers is still canon.

 

[Bobsican]

Okay, so I guess we can proceed on collecting some feats for the cast while it's tier 10?
They can also just be 10-B with no justification with no issue, given that tier isn't controversial at all to apply like that, if required.
Morgana does have a blatant 10-C scan, and Futaba is easily 10-C out of poor physical capabilities as we all know.

 

[Armorchompy]

Ryuji would be likely 10-A as he used to be an athlete before getting injured.

 

[Bobsican]

Kamoshida is also most likely 9-C as he got an olympic medal.

 

[Armorchompy]

I don't agree, it wasn't in a fighting-related sport (which means he might have never been 9-C to begin with), and that was like, a half decade before the events of the game so he's probably relatively out of shape

 

[EFÍTÉ]

So
The keys added are 10-C for Morgana, 10-B or 10-A for some persona users?

 

[The_Wright_Way]

I mean, Kanji is probably 9-C. Even before he got a Persona he stomped an entire gang.

 

[EFÍTÉ]

Wouldnt that be 10-A for Kanji ? Bikers aren't athlete and stuff, unless i missing something.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

I mean, figured they would be. They don't let normal joe shmoes join street gangs. Nit to mention, Kanji's been stated to keep up to motorcycles on a bicycle.

 

[EFÍTÉ]

Hmm should be alright then.

 

[Bobsican]

Okay, now that the changes seem to be agreed on, what profiles will be the ones exactly affected?

Most of the Persona 4 and 5 cast seem to be affected, but there may be more.

 

[Rustobal10]

Oh god this thread is toxic. The Persona cast are only superhumans with their Personas activated only to be engaged in a fight. Joker only got arrested by the police and tortured due to his personas not being activated. Same for Shinji and Akechi being shot by bullet proves they don't have their personas unleashed. That's why there's no diarahan used on them. Therefore, no tier 10.

 

[EFÍTÉ]

Okay, now that the changes seem to be agreed on, what profiles will be the ones exactly affected?

Most of the Persona 4 and 5 cast seem to be affected, but there may be more.

Profiles who doenst get affected:
Velvet Room people, Shadows, Maruki, P1 cast and P2 cast
I dont remember exactly if Teddie while being a shadow is still considered as human tier in real life according to P4 writting.

Those i know for sure.