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Because he has them in both irl and Metaverse. There is literally no reason to create a separate key just to restate something.
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Persona near-wide downgrade to tier 10
- Thread starter Bobsican
- Start date
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Welp, go for it I guess.
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You have to be an athlete to be a track runner in and of itself
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I mean... aside from 10-B statistics, sure. I don't see your point. It still warrents a key.
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That wasn't responding to you, that was responding to the game mechanics claim.
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Either way, if this is gonna be made, then Bob needs to actually talk to us so he knows what he's doing given he only has experience with P5.
Edit: These are going to be extremely vague keys btw. But if the site is cool with that, whatever.
Edit: These are going to be extremely vague keys btw. But if the site is cool with that, whatever.
Last edited:
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I'll throw them into fights(lol)
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I mean, keys aren't made for matches, we index characters, which sometimes includes points where they just have no fighting potential
Bobsican
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- Thread starter
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Radiant Historia, another Atlus game, actually did this kind of stuff quite well, but that's off-topic.
Not really, it's a plot point constantly touched on, rather than a limitation on the game itself.
And yeah, of course, I haven't even finished P5 yet to properly know who needs a tier 10 key and doesn't, as obviously this doesn't apply to everyone.
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To be fair.
They get higher stats when summoning or using said power on himselfs to do higher feats that no human would, there is a example of that in Persona 2 IS Yukino does this feat and Tatsuya on Persona 2 EP does the same feat
Time stamp from Yukino: 2:07
Time stamp from Tatsuya: 16:25
When they not using it, they are vulnerable as any human.
Here a example on Morgana
Time stamp: 1:37:38
There is other examples like here
While it would be a useless key on versus match in general, it would help for indexing and making a more accurate profile.
There is a reason why when someone pulls a gun, knife or whatever they get afraid, atleast on P3, P4 and P5 guys.
And it should be noted: Only P1 and P2 party can summon on real life with no need of Evoker and any method of summoning, just by wanting/thinking they summon and done, so getting in knife, gun range on the real world isnt a problem for them
So yeah i agree.
They get higher stats when summoning or using said power on himselfs to do higher feats that no human would, there is a example of that in Persona 2 IS Yukino does this feat and Tatsuya on Persona 2 EP does the same feat
Time stamp from Yukino: 2:07
Time stamp from Tatsuya: 16:25
When they not using it, they are vulnerable as any human.
Here a example on Morgana
Time stamp: 1:37:38
There is other examples like here
While it would be a useless key on versus match in general, it would help for indexing and making a more accurate profile.
There is a reason why when someone pulls a gun, knife or whatever they get afraid, atleast on P3, P4 and P5 guys.
And it should be noted: Only P1 and P2 party can summon on real life with no need of Evoker and any method of summoning, just by wanting/thinking they summon and done, so getting in knife, gun range on the real world isnt a problem for them
So yeah i agree.
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I mean tbh, P5 character are clearly unable to use personas IRL, otherwise they wouldn't be powerless to deal with politicians and such
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Strikers is canon.
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I mean, that's the conclusion, then. They literally say their Metaverse strength does not carry over to the real world.
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I won't contest that, then, but P1-3 doesn't exactly scale to this either, since again, they literally take place in reality and all the Dark Hour is an extra hour of the regular day that most humans can't perceive due to not having Personas.
Also, this is blatantly untrue, as Makoto takes on three people by himself in Yukari's social link, and the only exception is Junpei (who was stated to cry alone in a store after awakening his Persona anyways, so it's not really valid as an anti-feat), and the only real argument that could be made for P4 against Kanji is the fact that he has a reputation for being a thug and they were simply trying to get intel out of him for the murders.
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I'm fine with P1-2-3 not having those tier 10 keys, I was only pushing for the newer ones to get it.
Also Kanji would totally be 9-C come to think of it, dude's a beast he crushes a whole biker gang by himself in a fight.
Also Kanji would totally be 9-C come to think of it, dude's a beast he crushes a whole biker gang by himself in a fight.
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Wouldn't Joker even utilizing his powers always require homefield advantage?
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Well, P4 is strange. Because by Arena, the events of it happen in the real world, and the TV World, so P4 should be on both sides, it doesn't require a medium.
No, considering Mitsuru says you can summon your Persona in reality with enough will.
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It's got anti-feats up the wazoo though. Maybe something like "10-B, Low 1-C when using his Persona's power" for the real life keys?
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That's the thing, there are just as many feats against this. Ren being able to move in stopped time literally in the first 30 minutes of the game, Maruki reality warping in reality, being able to use Third Eye in reality, so on, so forth.
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Makoto can beat 3 people, while i dont know if it warrant 10-A or not, but it doenst imply Makoto is always tier 2.
I dont think Dark Hour can be valid considering it warps real world, but again i need to play P3 to say something for real.
Third Eye isnt proof
Third eye is a GIFT given by igor, allowing the user to tap into ther sixth sense. Is nowhere related to persona power.
Timestamp: 9:27 to 10:04
When Ren moved in time stopped? Legit question.
How Maruki's RW even a thing here ? Is thanks to Joker's own will of rebellion that made him not be affected iniatially, till the deadline ends and everybody is stuck into new reality. Not everything is related to persona powers, the maxed confidantes aren't affected by the end of the game and Maruki's RW initially.
P4 Arena happens on the TV World, while P4 AU is a mix of dark hour and TV World, thought it would be sort of metaverse in the dark hour.
To be fair, it would need proof that he did and can summon normaly on the real world (by normaly i mean, outside of Plot moments and etc).
Yosuke tried to summon his persona on the real world and failed in P4.
Enough implies a requirement, said requirement isnt specified, since normal persona users already have good willpower/mind according to persona verse profiles, which basically implies summoning a persona in the real world, requires a insane amount of will that isn't normal and easier to get, even for persona users.
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The only time I recall Joker moving in stopped time was when he saw himself with Arsene at the beginning of P5. Even still, that's not really an argument.
1. He hadn't awakened his Persona.
2. The game doesn't make it clear what exactly happens here. Ren just looks around in confusion after this happens and it never comes up again.
3. This would just give his 10-A stuff resistance to time stop, if anything.
Also, the Persona 3 cast needed evokers to awaken their Personas, to be fair.
1. He hadn't awakened his Persona.
2. The game doesn't make it clear what exactly happens here. Ren just looks around in confusion after this happens and it never comes up again.
3. This would just give his 10-A stuff resistance to time stop, if anything.
Also, the Persona 3 cast needed evokers to awaken their Personas, to be fair.
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It's literally just space-time manipulation of the real world, it's not like it's a different plane of reality.
When he first gets the Metaverse App. Also, Maruki's reality warping comes from his Persona, which can manipulate the views of the masses.
When did he do that?
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,628
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- Thread starter
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I've talked to the Persona guys for a while, and we've kinda come to an agreement on just adding a note on the verse page over this could be done, as such tier 10 key for each guy would be pretty barebones beyond for the sake of clarification.
However, I would like to see what others think, as this note would be easily too vague to keep it clear on what exact tier each one sits at, as obviously the ones that fall in this aren't just flat-out 10-B, as there's a ton of 10-As, a few 9-Cs, and the blatant 10-Cs that Futaba and Morgana are.
There's also a concern on making the pages "unecessarily long", when they already are and that really isn't an issue so long it's well-organized, which I can manage, as I've done one of the longest profiles on the wiki like so, after all.
However, I would like to see what others think, as this note would be easily too vague to keep it clear on what exact tier each one sits at, as obviously the ones that fall in this aren't just flat-out 10-B, as there's a ton of 10-As, a few 9-Cs, and the blatant 10-Cs that Futaba and Morgana are.
There's also a concern on making the pages "unecessarily long", when they already are and that really isn't an issue so long it's well-organized, which I can manage, as I've done one of the longest profiles on the wiki like so, after all.
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I legit have no idea why "10-A keys would be bare bones" is even an argument seeing how that's literally never stopped us before. Just look at J Jonah Jameson's profile.
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I think the 10-B stuff is fine, who cares if it's barebones it's a part of the character and they still have some defensive hax
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Which is already covered in their Base key. We'd just be repeating info.
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Because they have those powers regardless of what Persona they have. Ren's Fate Manip for example, so adding it to an irl key then repeating it is useless info.
Literally we can just add a note on the main page that we are indexing them w/ their powers and not their irl keys. All that making these irl keys will do is create spite threads, which no one really likes
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By that logic, we shouldn't have most lower Dragon Ball keys because they have the same powers as later keys. Seriously, what is even your point? The fact that they're in that level is enough to warrant a key, same for literally every character.
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Yosuke tries to summon his persona here
Time stamp: 29:03, even realizing he is unable to summon in the real world.
And not necessary related to Yosuke realizing he shouldnt try to summon on that place, since he genuine tried to summon.
I going to check when he gets the Metaverse APP.
Going play P3 eventually, though P4 UA says the areas of Inaba are distorted and even showing huge areas from P3 City (which i forgot the name lol).
I arguing Marukis RW isnt relevant to persona users, when confidants and people with strong will can initially be unaffected by those reality warping effects.
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I'm not sure how seriously this should even be taken, since he literally only does that in response to Chie mentioning how the instruments look like his weapons when he uses them, which is immediately followed up by Yukiko saying that the drum looks like a fan.
That's due to Sho.
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Yeh this thread is kind of dumb. Giving characters a whole key for forms literally almost never used for any sort of combat is extremely necessary and kinda having sus motives if I'm being honest. Do we have a baby Goku key because he was in a couple chapters? Does Danny phantom have a form for his regular base without ghost powers? So on and so forth. The site is meant to index iterations of characters who perform combat in their verse. Combat is almost exclusively limited to the spiritual world outside of references, and certain scenes meant to drive the plot of the story.
Not only that but cognition is literally something that makes up physical reality. While there may seem to be this actual split between the worlds, everything is inherently mental. There is a reason in which why Morgana could retrieve his physical form from the ether and materialize as a cat. This being after the metaverse had dispersed. Takuto Maruki has used his persona IRL, Baofu awakens his persona in real life after his partner is killed and his life is in danger, and this was sometime before the events of P2 go down. Persona Tsumi no Batsu (or that of it which is translated) takes place almost exclusively in the real world (and yes it is canon and published by Atlus as a side story to P2 with P2 characters and places in the same city appearing in the plot). While in these cases there are apparent drawbacks, and the forms do tend to be weaker in some cases, it is readily apparent that people can use their cognition to manifest power even in the real world.
Then there are also cases like non persona awakened Ryuji tanking blows from Armed Shadows. Which could potentially be an outlier but leads me to my next point in that Tamaki/her crew of highschool students, Hazama, Kyouji Kuzunoha, and DS protagonist are all characters that exist in the persona/If/DS universe. They are able to harness cognition/observation and literally fight demons. So is there a random high school/select few humans who are just randomly physically capable of fighting demons? Or is it more consistent that individuals with strong wills and the potential to awaken a persona (which is pretty much every human who can tame their shadow) can tap into this power during certain situations?
Anywho, this would require a lot more thinking and effort into doing other than just slapping "regular human level" on all the persona profiles and calling it a day. It doesn't even seem like you actually did any research into the verse yourself, outside of surface-level familiarity, before trying to institute such a large change, nor did you bring this up publicly to the discord group chat IIRC.
So I disagree with this for many reasons on many levels.
Not only that but cognition is literally something that makes up physical reality. While there may seem to be this actual split between the worlds, everything is inherently mental. There is a reason in which why Morgana could retrieve his physical form from the ether and materialize as a cat. This being after the metaverse had dispersed. Takuto Maruki has used his persona IRL, Baofu awakens his persona in real life after his partner is killed and his life is in danger, and this was sometime before the events of P2 go down. Persona Tsumi no Batsu (or that of it which is translated) takes place almost exclusively in the real world (and yes it is canon and published by Atlus as a side story to P2 with P2 characters and places in the same city appearing in the plot). While in these cases there are apparent drawbacks, and the forms do tend to be weaker in some cases, it is readily apparent that people can use their cognition to manifest power even in the real world.
Then there are also cases like non persona awakened Ryuji tanking blows from Armed Shadows. Which could potentially be an outlier but leads me to my next point in that Tamaki/her crew of highschool students, Hazama, Kyouji Kuzunoha, and DS protagonist are all characters that exist in the persona/If/DS universe. They are able to harness cognition/observation and literally fight demons. So is there a random high school/select few humans who are just randomly physically capable of fighting demons? Or is it more consistent that individuals with strong wills and the potential to awaken a persona (which is pretty much every human who can tame their shadow) can tap into this power during certain situations?
Anywho, this would require a lot more thinking and effort into doing other than just slapping "regular human level" on all the persona profiles and calling it a day. It doesn't even seem like you actually did any research into the verse yourself, outside of surface-level familiarity, before trying to institute such a large change, nor did you bring this up publicly to the discord group chat IIRC.
So I disagree with this for many reasons on many levels.
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To respond to this specific point:
We do it for a lot of characters actually.
There's no reason to mislead people into thinking something wrong such as them always being superhuman, especially when the fact that they are random human is still a plot point.
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1. False equivalency. We do use base depowered versions of characters where applicable, such as Ben 10 and J Jonah Jameson for example.
2. Then we just don't give a tier 10 key to those that can do that. Simple. Doesn't change the fact that there are Persona users who are treated like normal humans/animals outside of specific zones. Hell, Joker getting the hell beaten out of him by normal cops is literally a plot point.
3. Ryuji didn't tank anything. He could barely stand and those blows were effortless. That's like saying Bulma scales to Beerus because she survived a slap.
2. Then we just don't give a tier 10 key to those that can do that. Simple. Doesn't change the fact that there are Persona users who are treated like normal humans/animals outside of specific zones. Hell, Joker getting the hell beaten out of him by normal cops is literally a plot point.
3. Ryuji didn't tank anything. He could barely stand and those blows were effortless. That's like saying Bulma scales to Beerus because she survived a slap.
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This is already addressed by the rest of my post. To reiterate, it is not done to other verses, and doesn't even address my point. Do those characters with said keys fight consistently in other forms? We are supposed to index versions of characters who fight. A note or a link to cosmology would be a much better solution than creating separate keys. Especially since, once again, the world is cognitive and Joker could unlock some extent of his latent power in the physical world, which has happened many times in series. Calling them "normal humans" is flat out wrong.
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