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Persona near-wide downgrade to tier 10

Either way, if this is gonna be made, then Bob needs to actually talk to us so he knows what he's doing given he only has experience with P5.

Edit: These are going to be extremely vague keys btw. But if the site is cool with that, whatever.
 
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Is only the Neo-Persona cast going to be affected by this? I don't see why would Revelations or P2's cast be affected.
Adding those keys still seems really pointless though.
 
Milly_Rocking_Bandit said:
It's a completely irrelevant key, the fact that they get beat up in the real world, or scared of Kanji, is just for immersion purposes. I'm not sure what kind of game Persona would be if you casually ran back in time to finish Kamoshida's palace fourty weeks later, or reverse the events of Nyarlathotep's cognition warping by running back to the beginning of time and preventing Nyx from awakening the Collective Unconscious, it's pointless to add this key because no one would use it. They are normal high schoolers who keep up that façade, even more for the Phantom Thieves, who live dual lives?
Click to expand...
Radiant Historia, another Atlus game, actually did this kind of stuff quite well, but that's off-topic.

Bernkastelll said:
Quick question, is the "anti-feats" only in game mechanic?
Click to expand...
Not really, it's a plot point constantly touched on, rather than a limitation on the game itself.
AxisPowerRanger said:
Either way, if this is gonna be made, then Bob needs to actually talk to us so he knows what he's doing given he only has experience with P5.

Edit: These are going to be extremely vague keys btw. But if the site is cool with that, whatever.
Click to expand...
And yeah, of course, I haven't even finished P5 yet to properly know who needs a tier 10 key and doesn't, as obviously this doesn't apply to everyone.
 
Opinion likely won't add much, but I agree with P5 characters having such a key, but older Personas (except maybe 4) wouldn't need it.
 
To be fair.

They get higher stats when summoning or using said power on himselfs to do higher feats that no human would, there is a example of that in Persona 2 IS Yukino does this feat and Tatsuya on Persona 2 EP does the same feat

Time stamp from Yukino: 2:07
Time stamp from Tatsuya: 16:25

When they not using it, they are vulnerable as any human.

Here a example on Morgana
Time stamp: 1:37:38

There is other examples like here

While it would be a useless key on versus match in general, it would help for indexing and making a more accurate profile.

There is a reason why when someone pulls a gun, knife or whatever they get afraid, atleast on P3, P4 and P5 guys.

And it should be noted: Only P1 and P2 party can summon on real life with no need of Evoker and any method of summoning, just by wanting/thinking they summon and done, so getting in knife, gun range on the real world isnt a problem for them

So yeah i agree.
 
I mean, that's the conclusion, then. They literally say their Metaverse strength does not carry over to the real world.
 
I won't contest that, then, but P1-3 doesn't exactly scale to this either, since again, they literally take place in reality and all the Dark Hour is an extra hour of the regular day that most humans can't perceive due to not having Personas.

EFÍTÉ said:
There is a reason why when someone pulls a gun, knife or whatever they get afraid, atleast on P3, P4 and P5 guys.
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Also, this is blatantly untrue, as Makoto takes on three people by himself in Yukari's social link, and the only exception is Junpei (who was stated to cry alone in a store after awakening his Persona anyways, so it's not really valid as an anti-feat), and the only real argument that could be made for P4 against Kanji is the fact that he has a reputation for being a thug and they were simply trying to get intel out of him for the murders.
 
I'm fine with P1-2-3 not having those tier 10 keys, I was only pushing for the newer ones to get it.

Also Kanji would totally be 9-C come to think of it, dude's a beast he crushes a whole biker gang by himself in a fight.
 
Armorchompy said:
I'm fine with P1-2-3 not having those tier 10 keys, I was only pushing for the newer ones to get it.

Also Kanji would totally be 9-C come to think of it, dude's a beast he crushes a whole biker gang by himself in a fight.
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Well, P4 is strange. Because by Arena, the events of it happen in the real world, and the TV World, so P4 should be on both sides, it doesn't require a medium.


Da_Lunge_Fish said:
Wouldn't Joker even utilizing his powers always require homefield advantage?
Click to expand...
No, considering Mitsuru says you can summon your Persona in reality with enough will.
 
Milly_Rocking_Bandit said:
Well, P4 is strange. Because by Arena, the events of it happen in the real world, and the TV World, so P4 should be on both sides, it doesn't require a medium.
Click to expand...
It's got anti-feats up the wazoo though. Maybe something like "10-B, Low 1-C when using his Persona's power" for the real life keys?
 
Armorchompy said:
It's got anti-feats up the wazoo though. Maybe something like "10-B, Low 1-C when using his Persona's power" for the real life keys?
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That's the thing, there are just as many feats against this. Ren being able to move in stopped time literally in the first 30 minutes of the game, Maruki reality warping in reality, being able to use Third Eye in reality, so on, so forth.
 
Milly_Rocking_Bandit said:
I won't contest that, then, but P1-3 doesn't exactly scale to this either, since again, they literally take place in reality and all the Dark Hour is an extra hour of the regular day that most humans can't perceive due to not having Personas.


Also, this is blatantly untrue, as Makoto takes on three people by himself in Yukari's social link, and the only exception is Junpei (who was stated to cry alone in a store after awakening his Persona anyways, so it's not really valid as an anti-feat), and the only real argument that could be made for P4 against Kanji is the fact that he has a reputation for being a thug and they were simply trying to get intel out of him for the murders.
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Makoto can beat 3 people, while i dont know if it warrant 10-A or not, but it doenst imply Makoto is always tier 2.

I dont think Dark Hour can be valid considering it warps real world, but again i need to play P3 to say something for real.

Milly_Rocking_Bandit said:
That's the thing, there are just as many feats against this. Ren being able to move in stopped time literally in the first 30 minutes of the game, Maruki reality warping in reality, being able to use Third Eye in reality, so on, so forth.
Click to expand...
Third Eye isnt proof

Third eye is a GIFT given by igor, allowing the user to tap into ther sixth sense. Is nowhere related to persona power.

Timestamp: 9:27 to 10:04

When Ren moved in time stopped? Legit question.

How Maruki's RW even a thing here ? Is thanks to Joker's own will of rebellion that made him not be affected iniatially, till the deadline ends and everybody is stuck into new reality. Not everything is related to persona powers, the maxed confidantes aren't affected by the end of the game and Maruki's RW initially.
Milly_Rocking_Bandit said:
Well, P4 is strange. Because by Arena, the events of it happen in the real world, and the TV World, so P4 should be on both sides, it doesn't require a medium.
Click to expand...

P4 Arena happens on the TV World, while P4 AU is a mix of dark hour and TV World, thought it would be sort of metaverse in the dark hour.



Milly_Rocking_Bandit said:
No, considering Mitsuru says you can summon your Persona in reality with enough will.
Click to expand...
To be fair, it would need proof that he did and can summon normaly on the real world (by normaly i mean, outside of Plot moments and etc).

Yosuke tried to summon his persona on the real world and failed in P4.

Enough implies a requirement, said requirement isnt specified, since normal persona users already have good willpower/mind according to persona verse profiles, which basically implies summoning a persona in the real world, requires a insane amount of will that isn't normal and easier to get, even for persona users.
 
The only time I recall Joker moving in stopped time was when he saw himself with Arsene at the beginning of P5. Even still, that's not really an argument.

1. He hadn't awakened his Persona.

2. The game doesn't make it clear what exactly happens here. Ren just looks around in confusion after this happens and it never comes up again.

3. This would just give his 10-A stuff resistance to time stop, if anything.

Also, the Persona 3 cast needed evokers to awaken their Personas, to be fair.
 
EFÍTÉ said:
I dont think Dark Hour can be valid considering it warps real world, but again i need to play P3 to say something for real.
Click to expand...
It's literally just space-time manipulation of the real world, it's not like it's a different plane of reality.


EFÍTÉ said:
Third Eye isnt proof

Third eye is a GIFT given by igor, allowing the user to tap into ther sixth sense. Is nowhere related to persona power.

Timestamp: 9:27 to 10:04

When Ren moved in time stopped? Legit question.

How Maruki's RW even a thing here ? Is thanks to Joker's own will of rebellion that made him not be affected iniatially, till the deadline ends and everybody is stuck into new reality. Not everything is related to persona powers, the maxed confidantes aren't affected by the end of the game and Maruki's RW initially.
Click to expand...
When he first gets the Metaverse App. Also, Maruki's reality warping comes from his Persona, which can manipulate the views of the masses.


EFÍTÉ said:
To be fair, it would need proof that he did and can summon normaly on the real world (by normaly i mean, outside of Plot moments and etc).

Yosuke tried to summon his persona on the real world and failed in P4.

Enough implies a requirement, said requirement isnt specified, since normal persona users already have good willpower/mind according to persona verse profiles, which basically implies summoning a persona in the real world, requires a insane amount of will that isn't normal and easier to get, even for persona users.
Click to expand...
When did he do that?
 
I've talked to the Persona guys for a while, and we've kinda come to an agreement on just adding a note on the verse page over this could be done, as such tier 10 key for each guy would be pretty barebones beyond for the sake of clarification.

However, I would like to see what others think, as this note would be easily too vague to keep it clear on what exact tier each one sits at, as obviously the ones that fall in this aren't just flat-out 10-B, as there's a ton of 10-As, a few 9-Cs, and the blatant 10-Cs that Futaba and Morgana are.
There's also a concern on making the pages "unecessarily long", when they already are and that really isn't an issue so long it's well-organized, which I can manage, as I've done one of the longest profiles on the wiki like so, after all.
 
Bobsican said:
Not really, the tier (And stats for that matter ) isn't covered, only the powers are, which are oddly "merged" into the "amped" key.
Click to expand...
Because they have those powers regardless of what Persona they have. Ren's Fate Manip for example, so adding it to an irl key then repeating it is useless info.

Literally we can just add a note on the main page that we are indexing them w/ their powers and not their irl keys. All that making these irl keys will do is create spite threads, which no one really likes
 
By that logic, we shouldn't have most lower Dragon Ball keys because they have the same powers as later keys. Seriously, what is even your point? The fact that they're in that level is enough to warrant a key, same for literally every character.
 
I mean, that's why pages just say on the next key "All previous", then add what's new, it wouldn't be repeating information.
 
Milly_Rocking_Bandit said:
It's literally just space-time manipulation of the real world, it's not like it's a different plane of reality.



When he first gets the Metaverse App. Also, Maruki's reality warping comes from his Persona, which can manipulate the views of the masses.



When did he do that?
Click to expand...
Yosuke tries to summon his persona here
Time stamp: 29:03, even realizing he is unable to summon in the real world.
And not necessary related to Yosuke realizing he shouldnt try to summon on that place, since he genuine tried to summon.

I going to check when he gets the Metaverse APP.

Going play P3 eventually, though P4 UA says the areas of Inaba are distorted and even showing huge areas from P3 City (which i forgot the name lol).

I arguing Marukis RW isnt relevant to persona users, when confidants and people with strong will can initially be unaffected by those reality warping effects.
 
EFÍTÉ said:
Yosuke tries to summon his persona here
Time stamp: 29:03, even realizing he is unable to summon in the real world.
And not necessary related to Yosuke realizing he shouldnt try to summon on that place, since he genuine tried to summon.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure how seriously this should even be taken, since he literally only does that in response to Chie mentioning how the instruments look like his weapons when he uses them, which is immediately followed up by Yukiko saying that the drum looks like a fan.



EFÍTÉ said:
Going play P3 eventually, though P4 UA says the areas of Inaba are distorted and even showing huge areas from P3 City (which i forgot the name lol).
Click to expand...
That's due to Sho.
 
All the "it would be barebone" or "would have too much" is just plain wrong. We do it for a ton of verses.
Even if some would just be Morgana being a cat, it should still matter.
 
Yeh this thread is kind of dumb. Giving characters a whole key for forms literally almost never used for any sort of combat is extremely necessary and kinda having sus motives if I'm being honest. Do we have a baby Goku key because he was in a couple chapters? Does Danny phantom have a form for his regular base without ghost powers? So on and so forth. The site is meant to index iterations of characters who perform combat in their verse. Combat is almost exclusively limited to the spiritual world outside of references, and certain scenes meant to drive the plot of the story.

Not only that but cognition is literally something that makes up physical reality. While there may seem to be this actual split between the worlds, everything is inherently mental. There is a reason in which why Morgana could retrieve his physical form from the ether and materialize as a cat. This being after the metaverse had dispersed. Takuto Maruki has used his persona IRL, Baofu awakens his persona in real life after his partner is killed and his life is in danger, and this was sometime before the events of P2 go down. Persona Tsumi no Batsu (or that of it which is translated) takes place almost exclusively in the real world (and yes it is canon and published by Atlus as a side story to P2 with P2 characters and places in the same city appearing in the plot). While in these cases there are apparent drawbacks, and the forms do tend to be weaker in some cases, it is readily apparent that people can use their cognition to manifest power even in the real world.

Then there are also cases like non persona awakened Ryuji tanking blows from Armed Shadows. Which could potentially be an outlier but leads me to my next point in that Tamaki/her crew of highschool students, Hazama, Kyouji Kuzunoha, and DS protagonist are all characters that exist in the persona/If/DS universe. They are able to harness cognition/observation and literally fight demons. So is there a random high school/select few humans who are just randomly physically capable of fighting demons? Or is it more consistent that individuals with strong wills and the potential to awaken a persona (which is pretty much every human who can tame their shadow) can tap into this power during certain situations?

Anywho, this would require a lot more thinking and effort into doing other than just slapping "regular human level" on all the persona profiles and calling it a day. It doesn't even seem like you actually did any research into the verse yourself, outside of surface-level familiarity, before trying to institute such a large change, nor did you bring this up publicly to the discord group chat IIRC.

So I disagree with this for many reasons on many levels.
 
Dr._whiteee said:
Yeh this thread is kind of dumb. Giving characters a whole key for forms literally almost never used for any sort of combat is extremely necessary and kinda having sus motives if I'm being honest. Do we have a baby Goku key because he was in a couple chapters? Does Danny phantom have a form for his regular base without ghost powers? So on and so forth. The site is meant to index iterations of characters who perform combat in their verse. Combat is almost exclusively limited to the spiritual world outside of references, and certain scenes meant to drive the plot of the story.
Click to expand...
To respond to this specific point:

We do it for a lot of characters actually.
There's no reason to mislead people into thinking something wrong such as them always being superhuman, especially when the fact that they are random human is still a plot point.
 
1. False equivalency. We do use base depowered versions of characters where applicable, such as Ben 10 and J Jonah Jameson for example.

2. Then we just don't give a tier 10 key to those that can do that. Simple. Doesn't change the fact that there are Persona users who are treated like normal humans/animals outside of specific zones. Hell, Joker getting the hell beaten out of him by normal cops is literally a plot point.

3. Ryuji didn't tank anything. He could barely stand and those blows were effortless. That's like saying Bulma scales to Beerus because she survived a slap.
 
QuasiYuri said:
To respond to this specific point:

We do it for a lot of characters actually.
There's no reason to mislead people into thinking something wrong such as them always being superhuman, especially when the fact that they are random human is still a plot point.
Click to expand...
This is already addressed by the rest of my post. To reiterate, it is not done to other verses, and doesn't even address my point. Do those characters with said keys fight consistently in other forms? We are supposed to index versions of characters who fight. A note or a link to cosmology would be a much better solution than creating separate keys. Especially since, once again, the world is cognitive and Joker could unlock some extent of his latent power in the physical world, which has happened many times in series. Calling them "normal humans" is flat out wrong.
 
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