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Persona near-wide downgrade to tier 10

Bobsican

Bobsican

He/Him
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Anyways, I've noticed that currently we only rate the cast while they are amped with powers and the like, but we have yet to index them while also including as the "base" key as just tier 10 as we all know nearly all of them are powerless and normal in the regular world.

I've been told by some in the Persona circle on the wiki that this is irrelevant out of these keys finding virtually no use as there's hardly any scaling for them, let alone weight on the grand picture of the series compared to cosmological stuff, but to someone not into the series, not featuring such tier 10 keys is pretty misleading to their actual statistics, as they currently look like as if they started as tier 2, and this isn't like rating a character when it was born, as they constantly "shift" between whatever cosmological feat their "amped forms" scale and the base form.

Indexing a tier 10 key that's almost featless, then an actual key(s) that are worth indexing also isn't unheard of, and I'll gladly help the editing if this is accepted, but in any case this has to be mentioned in some way, as anyone remotely into the verse can agree on the second paragraph regarding how they are usually tier 10, then just become "amped" on whatever tier they're currently at.

In a nutshell, this isn't an actual downgrade, this is more about asking thoughts on just adding a key for the members of the cast that are "normally" tier 10 or so, as currently the pages act as if they were always tier 2 or the like.
 
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This is completely and utterly debunked by the existence of Persona 1, 2, and 3, as they all take place in reality, and Mitsuru herself admitting one can use their Persona in reality with enough will.
 
We also have the "Base" section for a reason. Anything that could potentially be added to an irl key could literally just be added to that.
 
AxisPowerRanger said:
We also have the "Base" section for a reason. Anything that could potentially be added to an irl key could literally just be added to that.
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The Tier, AP, Durability, etc sections can't
Powers aren't everything, their standard physical capabilities have to also be shown in the pages to keep it clear that they aren't always tier 2 or the like, in fact, most of the time they're tier 10.
 
Bobsican said:
Powers aren't everything, their standard physical capabilities have to also be shown in the pages to keep it clear that they aren't always tier 2 or the like.
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This is again, false, as the stories of Persona 1-3 involve their Persona's awakening in reality, which possess amps that are passive such as radar sensing, instinctive reaction, etc. They wouldn't get a tier 10 key.
 
I'm fine with those not getting it, after all, exceptions would happen, and as the OP says, this wouldn't apply to literally everyone, just the ones that have this issue.
 
So you're saying that once they awaken a Persona, they're always that tier regardless of where or when they are?
 
If tier 10 is so needed, there is an option. We can create "Start of the game" key, which would include their pre-persona stats only.
 
The early game P4 cast (Who's already saved Yukiko and showed absolutely no fear in fighting anyone in that dungeon) is scared as **** of Kanji Tatsumi to the point that they all run away from him despite the fact that by then he's a normal dude and probably 10-A at best.
 
I'm sure there's a fuckton more anti-feats, such as the Phantom Thieves being unable to confront... well, anyone they face directly. You could argue they don't cause they're afraid of being exposed but it's still incredibly weird that such a thing is never brought up.
 
i appreciate the joke but it do be derailing. Anyway I'm sure there's lore or whatever that implies they're just as powerful in the real world but at least the last 2 games have a metric fuckton of showings against that lol
 
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Milly_Rocking_Bandit said:
This is completely and utterly debunked by the existence of Persona 1, 2, and 3, as they all take place in reality, and Mitsuru herself admitting one can use their Persona in reality with enough will.
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Actually...

In Persona 1... Honestly, that is the only one I can't think of direct evidence against, just that reality was being messed with and demons were pouring in, so it wasn't exactly the 100% real world like Persona 3, 4 and 5

The situation's a lot more direct with Persona 2, where Philemon and Nyarthotep purposefully let the real world be influenced by the Cognition of the people in major ways, thus allowing rumors to become true, and possibly allowing people to also use their Personas

In Persona 3, they don't really use it outside of the Dark Hour, though there is the instance of Chidori's Persona strangling her due to... A plot point I entirely forgot honestly. All the same, it's not something people just normally do.

That said, even if one were to argue there are points where they can't use their Personas, there's also like, 0 point in indexing a 10-B key. There's straight up nothing there, they're a high school student, they don't and can't fight.
 
DMUA said:
That said, even if one were to argue there are points where they can't use their Personas, there's also like, 0 point in indexing a 10-B key. There's straight up nothing there, they're a high school student, they don't and can't fight.
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Yes, but the purpose of listing such a key is to keep clear that they aren't always in the tier they currently scale to, as currently someone not into the verse can easily think that they're always at the tier they're at while amped with a Persona or the like, when it's clear to not be the case for certain cases, which is a good chunk of the cast.
 
Okay but who would actually use that key at any point, in any context?

Why do they need to know they aren't always at full throttle?
 
Didn't CRT say this was a persona like SAO where I myself couldn't bring out their game power in the real world
 
That doesn't answer my question

And even then, Kirito IRL still has actual feats of his physical performance and there's a whole movie about him fighting outside, with some scenes of it sprinkled into the show itself.
 
We don't list statistics just for future usage in fights. It doesn't matter whether or not a key or an ability can or will be used, we still need to list it (otherwise there wouldn't be any abilities that are not combat-applicable, for example).

That being said, we should still figure out whether they can use Personas all the time or not. If they can't, the key would change from just "Start of the Game" to "Base" or smt (which naturally would include abilities, skills, training that they got in real world).
 
1-3 can use their Personas in reality and have access to their powers(tho the latter requires an Evoker until the events of Arena), 4-5 require to be within their respective alternate worlds for the time being. I’m actually surprised this is a discussion. It's a literal narrative point of P5 that after they defeat Yaldabaoth, the Thieves expect them to no longer have access to their powers in the Metaverse.

Anyways, this addition isn’t needed and contributes nothing to the profiles. As I’ve told Bob, if this gets accepted, me nor Milly intend to help since we have much more important edits to make.
 
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It's a completely irrelevant key, the fact that they get beat up in the real world, or scared of Kanji, is just for immersion purposes. I'm not sure what kind of game Persona would be if you casually ran back in time to finish Kamoshida's palace fourty weeks later, or reverse the events of Nyarlathotep's cognition warping by running back to the beginning of time and preventing Nyx from awakening the Collective Unconscious, it's pointless to add this key because no one would use it. They are normal high schoolers who keep up that façade, even more for the Phantom Thieves, who live dual lives?
 
That's a lot of antifeats to just sell off with "done for immersion purposes", the writers clearly intend them to be normal teens in the real world.
 
There are a lot of anti-feats for a lot of characters, not even just Persona. Like how Kratos is Low 2-C but cannot open a chest, or how Mario and Link are susceptible to drowning despite being fast enough to walk on water through sheer speed, or how Demons can be shot in SMT despite them not even being physical.
 
"Just for immersion purposes"

Yeah, no. I can't speak for 1-2 yet, but what I've seen of 3-5 completely upholds this. Honestly, I support Armorchompy.

Also, you're seriously ignoring context on those anti-feats dude. Mainly, that none of them happen anywhere near as consistently as they do in later Persona games.

I'm agreeing with Armorchompy. There's more than enough here to justify a key.

And don't give me that "a key would be pointless" thing either. 1. This is an indexing wiki. 2. Some characters have half-decent feats (IE. Ryuji being a former track runner). 3. Some characters still have resistances in the real world, as Ren is still shown to be able to resist Fate Manipulation in his Fortune Confidant.
 
Milly_Rocking_Bandit said:
There are a lot of anti-feats for a lot of characters, not even just Persona. Like how Kratos is Low 2-C but cannot open a chest, or how Mario and Link are susceptible to drowning despite being fast enough to walk on water through sheer speed, or how Demons can be shot in SMT despite them not even being physical.
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all of those are game mechanics except for maybe the last one, the same cannot be said for Persona since the parts this discusses are literally the ones where you're not playing the game.
 
The_Wright_Way said:
"Just for immersion purposes"

Yeah, no. I can't speak for 1-2 yet, but what I've seen of 3-5 completely upholds this. Honestly, I support Armorchompy.

Also, you're seriously ignoring context on those anti-feats dude. Mainly, that none of them happen anywhere near as consistently as they do in later Persona games.

I'm agreeing with Armorchompy. There's more than enough here to justify a key.

And don't give me that "a key would be pointless" thing either. 1. This is an indexing wiki. 2. Some characters have half-decent feats (IE. Ryuji being a former track runner). 3. Some characters still have resistances in the real world, as Ren is still shown to be able to resist Fate Manipulation in his Fortune Confidant.
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We have no way to calculate how fast Ryuji ran before Kamoshida breaking his leg and any of what Ren has is already covered in his Base key.
 
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